PDA

View Full Version : Billmi's 1995 Ninja 250 conversion



billmi
24 August 2010, 1010
I started out wanting to convert a dual sport, but ended up with the Ninja, since I was able to pick it up, without title for $250. $80 later, I got a fresh title issued by the sate, and was in business. It looked bad on the outside, but really was in pretty decent shape. I stripped it down, cleaned, painted and polished, and got it back together, with some added reinforcement in the frame. I've built the mount for my motor, and am holding my breath until my 40Ah LiFePO4 batteries arrive next month before finalizing the design for their bracket.213217214216215

billmi
24 August 2010, 1011
And here's the current planned layout for the batteries: 218

soyachips
26 August 2010, 0544
What a bargain on the rolling chassis! Is that a brush or brushless motor you're using? Nice 3D work.

billmi
26 August 2010, 0925
Thanks, that's a brushed, permanent magnet DC motor. It's a Mars ME0709.

The postman brought a Magura throttle and trio of Cell-Log 8Ms yesterday :-)

frodus
26 August 2010, 0934
those cell logs sure are a simple way of creating a simple logging monitor. Are you just going to use all of their alarm outputs to go to something to turn the contactor on/off if you hit OVC or LVC? It doesn't balance, but its sure a quick simple solution to keep cells from getting overdischarged.

billmi
26 August 2010, 1005
I got the 8Ms - no logging feature, lower price. Hobby King's web site has a feature that if you look at a product a few times, it notices that from the tracking cookies, and can offer you a "good for right now only" discount price. I got the three for $13.50 or so each.

I had considered using them to alarm on low voltage during riding and charger shut-off during charging, but decided to go with MiniBMS, since that adds a shunting system and thermal monitoring.

I'm solely going to be using these for the convenience of checking individual cell voltages without having to hook up my multimeter to one cell at a time. I haven't quite decided if these will get mounted around the instrument cluster, or somewhere out of the way where I'm not tempted to look at them too much and take my eyes off the road too long.

magicsmoke
26 August 2010, 1644
Like soyachips said, 'Nice 3D work'
What package you using, and did you model the motor complete or is that an image on the end face?

billmi
27 August 2010, 0556
Thanks Magicsmoke,
I did that in Lightwave which is primarily what I use at work (though I do some work in SolidWorks, too) and no, I didn't build a detailed model of the motor, just its basic shape surface mapped with images of the motor.

You can see it in more angles in this Java VR display I did of my first layout concept, when I was planning on using 50Ah SLAs:http://www.corin.com/bill/Ninja

Only2Jakes
27 August 2010, 0606
haha, I'm gonna say the same thing too. Awesome 3d Model.

I know you mentioned using 40ah batts. Which make are you thinking of using?

frodus
27 August 2010, 0830
i wish i had more mechanical background.... that is pretty cool, makes things a bit easier to design.

billmi
27 August 2010, 0959
haha, I'm gonna say the same thing too. Awesome 3d Model.

Thanks :-)

Here are a couple more views, keeping my fingers crossed that my tape-measuring job on the frame was accurate enough around the changes in frame width that I can actually tuck the KD72401 controller up in that spot:227225



I know you mentioned using 40ah batts. Which make are you thinking of using?

CALB, the batteries formerly known as Sky Energy. They should arrive here the first week of October.



i wish i had more mechanical background.... that is pretty cool, makes things a bit easier to design.


Me too, but I occasionally get the chance to fake it like with this build. Usually I build models for illustration and animation, or work with MEs to use their models for illustration or animation.

Here's some other assorted 3d stuff that has nothing to do with electric motorcycles...

A frame out of an animation showing how to assemble a knee cooling device:
226

Still frames, and a virtual reality simulation of how a paintgun fires for a product review:
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/tippmann/AlphaBlack/howitworks.shtml

This is a promo clip for a webcast show. I built both the real-time virtual studio and the animation to explain how the manifold works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRRnNlaAqFM

gasfreeearth
27 August 2010, 1012
Sweet Bill! Can't tell you how many times I dropped small screws in my "stuck in the 70's shag carpet" lol. Thankfully my house in FL has tile. :)

Tony Coiro
27 August 2010, 1311
Thanks :-)

Here are a couple more views, keeping my fingers crossed that my tape-measuring job on the frame was accurate enough around the changes in frame width that I can actually tuck the KD72401 controller up in that spot:


I modeled my bike in 3D and several other frames. What I have found works best is sit the frame in the corner of a room. This give you a 3D axis system to work off of (floor and both walls) Just plot he positions in 3D space and then "connect the dots." Hope this helps.

DRZ400
28 August 2010, 0739
Will this battery arrangement allow use of the lower fairing?

Thalass
29 August 2010, 0709
Great work here. How far do you expect to go on 40ah cells? I'm guessing you're going with 72v, since you're using an ME0709.

billmi
30 August 2010, 0937
Gassfreeearth, as long as you don't have one of those hideous lamps that drips oil down fishing line around little bronze painted plastic statue, it's all good.

Tony Coiro, I like that approach, it's kind of what I did, but without the walls. I set the frame up on the center stand over a tape measure for the Z axis, then dropped a tape to the floor for each point, measuring Y and getting a reference to the Z tape. Then I measured from the point to the opposite side to get 2x the X value, since the frame is symmetrical. I considered setting up a corner with DAVID laser scanner targets and scanning it while the frame was all painted white with primer, but that seemed a bit over-kill and time consuming (cleaning a whole corner of the garage) versus measuring as I did.

DRZ400, I suspect so, but I don't know for sure, as I don't have a lower fairing to take measurements from. I've abbreviated the upper fairing, and will probably be doing away with the side fairing and rear cowling as well.

Thalass, based on purely spit-ball projections, above 20 miles. That's based merely on DRZ400's experience getting 18-20 with the same frame, motor, controller, and a bank of 35Ah SLA batteries. With LiFePO4s, that are higher capacity, able to discharge deeper, and subject to less Peukert's effect, I expect better. I'll be riding a bit faster than he typically did with that motor, and gearing a little taller, but my commute to work is only 10 miles and I can recharge at work if I need to.

Thalass
05 September 2010, 1005
Ah nice. I would love to fit 100ah cells in my bike, but i suspect it will be impossible. 100ah is a bit of overkill, anyway, but it'd be nice to be able to ride 105km (according to the spreadsheet), compared to 62km!

EVcycle
10 September 2010, 0234
Spammer !!

billmi
17 September 2010, 0953
Being the first draft, and that it's a bunch of little lines, I expect I've made some mistakes, so finding of those mistakes and or general feedback and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.





366

electrician
18 September 2010, 0756
I am impressed with the 3d modeling. excellent :)

eronsilva
21 September 2010, 1457
You can see it in more angles in this Java VR display I did of my first layout concept, when I was planning on using 50Ah SLAs:http://www.corin.com/bill/Ninja
Billmi, I took the time to install the Java whatever-that-was and my jaw dropped: amazing drawing, rendering and rotating in every conceivable angle.
I feel humbled... wish I were able to do 10% of that. Really good job, you mad max fan you! :)

billmi
09 December 2010, 1106
Tackled the seat this week. The original seat was ripped up and the foam had rotted away where it was exposed to the elements. I considered simply replacing it, but figured I'd give it a shot at fixing it on the cheap first. I used an electric carving knife to cut out the rotted foam, then glued in some pieces of similar weight foam I had on hand (packaging from some paintguns) and sculpted them to shape with the carving knife. A yard of marine grade vinyl was $14, and enough for two seats, so I've got some in spare. It took judicious use of a heat gun to soften it, and some knuckle-busting to stretch it to shape, but it worked out. There are a few subtle wrinkles, and my repair foam isn't flawlessly smooth, but overall, it works and I'm happy.

614617615616

DaveAK
09 December 2010, 1117
It looks great! My seat is actually rotted more than yours, but I won't say worse because it's pretty even deterioration all over. I think I should be able to cover it all in new foam of a suitable thickness, and then try to cover it in vinyl. I've been putting it off because of not knowing what to do about the vinyl. I might have to quiz you more about some techniques. Or I might end up just buying a new seat cover as I found some pretty good looking ones online.

Your finsihed seat though does look like new! A really good job.

billmi
09 December 2010, 1443
Thanks Dave, take a peek at diymotorcycleseat.com. There's lots of good info there - some of which I found helpful, and some of which I ignored. I used a hand powered staple gun, something they advise against. They recommend shaping the foam with an angle grinder. I probably could have blended the foams smoother doing that, but probably would have been cleaning bits of foam dust out of the back corners of my garage for months to come. It helps that the Ninja uses a single sheet of vinyl for the cover, so there was no pattern making or sewing needed like there would be with some seats.

harlan
09 December 2010, 1814
Dave,

You might be able to get away with just using some smoothing foam. Buy a large piece of foam, cover the seat with spray adhesive, and then stretch the foam over the top. Trim the edges and done. If it is really rotten you may need to grind a little of the top layer off.

This is the smoothing foam I used and it worked great. http://www.mcmaster.com/#86195k321/=a2ub3m

DaveAK
09 December 2010, 1820
That might just do the trick. The overall seat still has good shape to it, but I might build it up a little in the actual seat areas, and then cover it with smoothing foam and some marine vinyl. Should be able to get all that locally.

Square Wave
10 December 2010, 0836
You can cover the foam with poyester batting from JoAnn fabrics to smooth it out. That's what the pro I paid a few years ago did.

billmi
12 December 2010, 1303
Next up - the dash.

I pulled open the dashboard and removed the three stock gauges, as well as sanding off and re-polishing the labels from OIL and NEUTRAL lights - those will serve as the MiniBMS LVC and controller LED displays. I'm not sure yet what, if anything will go where the temp gauge was. Where the odo and spedo were, I epoxied four socket heat cap screws to the back of the dashboard's window, and used them to mount the large display high current Cycle Analyst. I soldered on longer leads to the Cycle Analyst's button and epixied in a flat piece of plexi to mount it. Turns out it's a perfect fit behind the waterproof boot from the original trip odometer reset :-) A quick and dirty paint job and it's ready to roll.

631632

billmi
27 December 2010, 0720
Added connectors (top) to the MiniBMS boards to piggyback CellLog8s on them.

670

I finally think I know what I'm going to do for battery placement. This bracket is based on the previous battery layout, but I've done probably 5 or 6 other arrangements in the meantime, weighing ease of pulling batteries, protection and other factors. When I started to design a bracket for this arrangement I thought it wouldn't work because the battery terminals would be in contact with the mount rails - but I then realized I'd ball-parked their measurements, since the terminal dimensions aren't on the spec sheet. It looks like they should work, but I won't know for sure until Wednesday when FedEx says they will arrive.

668669

Christmas day weather was beautiful, so no work on the bike - instead my wife and I rode the backroads and passed through Kenansville. Downtown is thriving - both buildings - the old bank and the Heartbreak Hotel, which supposedly inspired the song made famous by Elvis.

667666

EVcycle
27 December 2010, 1014
Looks like you will be ready to ride by Spring?

Nuts & Volts
27 December 2010, 1208
Looking good sir!
Do you have a good system to hold the batteries down to make sure they don't bounce around?

Kyle

billmi
28 December 2010, 0553
Not yet. I'm planning to use the C-channel and threaded rod strapping system from CALB, to strap the batteries into packs and depending on how stable I feel that is either setting up a system of latches to lock the strapping system into the trays, or using nylon straps to secure the battery packs to their trays.

billmi
28 December 2010, 0618
Looks like you will be ready to ride by Spring?

Assuming construction goes smoothly, yes. We've got year round riding weather, so once it's road worthy it'll be on the road.

billmi
29 December 2010, 1030
And more holiday progress....

I fabricated a bracket to hold the new integrated rear signal and license plate, replacing the missing original fender and 80s styled rear cowling.

680

I also cut the bottom of the gas tank out, which went quicker than I expected with a RotoZip cut-off wheel, except for the hump that goes over the frame - I finished that with a hand held hacksaw blade that took a while. After cutting out the inside of the filler funnel, I test-fit the auxiliary power supply. Still haven't figured out how to regulate its output down to something the bike can handle, but that's a minor detail. :-)

681

And today I went to work, even though we were closed, to wait for the FedEx man, who showed up mid morning :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Looks like the terminals come too close to the edge for the battery to rest with that edge in a 3/4" steel angle iron - back to the drawing board for the battery bracket design.

679

Looks like CALB has switched their strapping system. It wasn't the threaded rods and c-channel I was expecting. They included full aluminum end plates and sheet metal side straps similar to ThunderSky.

678

billmi
03 January 2011, 1059
I wasn't happy with two factors of the previous bracket design - batteries are pretty exposed for impact damage, and it cuts it pretty close to the front wheel when the forks compress. Any design I tried that got it further back I had the problem of having enough room to load the batteries into the trays.

I think I'm going to take a different - albeit heavier - approach. Battery boxes that bolt to the frame and one another, the largest of which is a part of the motor mount.

696697698

And I'm surprised, no questions about the output capacity or fuel requirements of the aux power system shown in the previous post....

Tony Coiro
03 January 2011, 1137
696

And I'm surprised, no questions about the output capacity or fuel requirements of the aux power system shown in the previous post....

Haha, I thought I was the only one who makes the effort to lay the parts I need to put in the model "on the ground' around the project. Hey Bill, wanna tell us about the output capacity and/or fuel requirements of the aux power system shown in the previous, previous post? :D

billmi
04 January 2011, 1059
Haha, I thought I was the only one who makes the effort to lay the parts I need to put in the model "on the ground' around the project.

At least for me, it helps to visualize it. With each major revision I keep a print out on the wall by my desk, so when I need to stretch my eyes from the monitor, it gives me something to think on.



Hey Bill, wanna tell us about the output capacity and/or fuel requirements of the aux power system shown in the previous, previous post? :D

Well, thanks for asking, Tony :-)

But for the aux power source - the term flux capacitor gets thrown around a lot as a feature an EV must have, but I thought it was a bit old-school. Scrounging paladium out of 3 dozen catalytic converters took a while, but I got the reactor together. Thankfully there's a ready supply of plasma at work to fuel it, and as we all now, they practically run forever on a tiny amount of fuel. The real challenge now, although it's running is how to use it. Anyone know a source for step-down converters that can take the raw variable power output of an arc reactor and bring it down to a regulated 72 volts? Until I find one, I'm afraid it will be little more than a nice glowing decoration.

DRZ400
04 January 2011, 1128
Who did you buy the batteries from? I'm thinking of going with 24, 40AH CALB's in the spring. Possibly with 24 Headway 8ah cells in parallel.

billmi
04 January 2011, 1257
Lithium Storage. It looks like CALB now has their own offices in Southern California, providing another option that would avoid anyone who has ever bought cells from Morrison.

Will the Headways be there just for more Ah, or to get higher discharge rates? If for higher discharge rates, how will you control which battery in each pair delivers the lion's share of the current at a given time? For that matter, how will you charge them with cells of different size wired in parallel? The idea of being able to add a short duration, high-discharge boost system does have appeal.

billmi
13 January 2011, 1125
I read on Diyelectriccar.com that someone ordered from CALB's US office last month, and received their cells out of stateside stock in 2 weeks.

Battery brackets are coming together a bit at a time:

725

jpanichella
13 January 2011, 1153
Is this the distributer you were speaking of?

http://www.powerscaner.com/

billmi
14 January 2011, 0520
No, I'm talking about buying direct from CALB, not through a dealer or distributor. The website for their US office is http://www.CALIBPOWER.com, but the website is down most of the time. There is a link to that site on the front page of their main web site - http://en.calb.cn/ . I don't know how the price compares to buying from a US dealer that's importing, but being able to get your order in a couple of weeks sounds worth the cost difference unless it's an insane amount.

billmi
01 February 2011, 1058
And it looks like CALB's US site is up today - "Located in the beautiful city of Pomona California, Calib Power functions as the US operation of CALB, a China Based high-tech (electric energy storage) Company specializing in the production of Li-ion batteries, Battery Management Systems (BMS) and other related products. "

Things are chugging along on the build. I didn't snap any pics of the wiring harness for the CellLog8. First one is done, next two under construction. The 22AWG wires are bundled with zip ties and the last segment sealed to the connector with Plasti-Dip. I picked up a fresh can of PlastiDip to insulate my wrenches, and just started dipping everything - had to stop myself before dipping the cat.

Here's a test-fit of the backets, with the motor controller hanging off the side to see how well it fits in that spot.
802

A better shot of the "auxiliary power supply" just because I'm so happy with how it turned out - still not sure if the gas-cap is the right place for it or if I should use that for the charge cable and put it somewhere else.
804

And components mounted on the primary battery/motor bracket, with batteries inside. Now the project is getting real enough I can taste it.
803

DRZ400
09 February 2011, 0755
The batteries can be paralleled 1:1, since they will be at the same voltage they will charge and discharge uniformly. I tried this concept on my E-Bike. 3 10 ah SLA and 4 A123's (3S1P SLA + 12s1p A123). Got MUCH better burst current / accelleration. Idea is the pack will effectivly have a higher C rate for accelleration then balance out at cruise. Nice work BTW, can't wait to hear how you like the 40ah cells.



Lithium Storage. It looks like CALB now has their own offices in Southern California, providing another option that would avoid anyone who has ever bought cells from Morrison.

Will the Headways be there just for more Ah, or to get higher discharge rates? If for higher discharge rates, how will you control which battery in each pair delivers the lion's share of the current at a given time? For that matter, how will you charge them with cells of different size wired in parallel? The idea of being able to add a short duration, high-discharge boost system does have appeal.

billmi
09 February 2011, 1020
Nice work BTW, can't wait to hear how you like the 40ah cells.

Thanks. I can't wait, either!

billmi
21 February 2011, 0757
Got some time in the afternoons this week, and started installing the Mini BMS, and laying in the main 72v wiring. My wife and I wrestled the loaded sub-frames into place Saturday morning, and now it's really starting to look like an electric motorcycle.

I ended up making wood lockdown braces that secure the batteries in their cages (save for the 2 pack that's strapped into the original battery tray), and the braces are held in place by steel bars. Now that they're up n the bike, I need to measure, make and mount the cables that interconnect the battery boxes, and the cover will get clamped down on the lower box, giving me the clearance to mount the motor.

The MiniBMS boards are lit up like a christmas tree in green, and the Cell-logs are happily reporting individual cell voltages.

863864865

billmi
05 March 2011, 1758
Got some more time in this morning. DC-DC converter is online, ignition and kill switch are firing up the main contactor, power relay, controller and cycle analyst.

billmi
09 March 2011, 0659
Got home from work yesterday, put on the chain and went for a ride around the neighborhood :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

For test riding I'm using a 1:4 gear ratio, running ANSI 50 roller chain to an 11 tooth ANSI 50 up front and the stock 520 45 tooth sprocket in the rear. I was gentle on the throttle, and acceleration was comparable to how I normally pull out in traffic on ICE bikes (save for the rubber band feeling Ted describes). I had one momentary peak of 120 amps, but usual peaks during acceleration were around 80 amps (2c). Cruising I pulled a steady 28-30 amps at 30 mph. I didn't take it over 40.

Going to the tax collector's office today to register and tag it, then there is the rest of the electrical (headlight and signals) and bodywork (including patching where I burned through the thin metal of the tank welding brackets in for the charger) before getting out for some more serious riding to collect the data I need to figure out what I want for gearing.

I'm still grinning.

ZoomSmith
09 March 2011, 0736
Awesome!

Now wipe that smile off your face and take some pics!

Nuts & Volts
09 March 2011, 0902
Nice work! Congrats on the ride, its definitely something to cherish (mines on home video :)) Your battery current draw should hopefully be lower after a few rides as the batteries perk up.

How noisy is an 11 up front? I am thinking about going to an 11 or 10 just to see how fast I can accelerate.

podolefsky
09 March 2011, 0946
Yes...nicely done. The first ride is great isn't it?

More pics...and videos!

EVcycle
09 March 2011, 0959
Outstanding!!!!

First rides are always the best!!!

harlan
09 March 2011, 1014
Great news! Another elmoto on the road!

billmi
09 March 2011, 1028
No video, but my bride did not let the moment pass without a picture.

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=910&d=1299691667





910

teddillard
09 March 2011, 1029
SWEET! Congrats man!

(on the ride. I'm assuming congrats on the bride are somewhat overdue...)

DaveAK
09 March 2011, 1058
Awesome stuff!!!!

Damn snow is keeping me from my first ride. Gonna be at least a month I think. You guys are killin' me!

Harold in CR
09 March 2011, 1240
Congrats, Bill
Next time I'm up in Barefoot Bay, I will have to contact you and maybe get a first hand look at the conversion.

chef
09 March 2011, 2331
Nice work and congrats!

Skeezmour
10 March 2011, 0004
Very nice Bill great to see it running. The neighborhood will never be the same.

billmi
10 March 2011, 1025
SWEET! Congrats man!

(on the ride. I'm assuming congrats on the bride are somewhat overdue...)

Perhaps overdue, but more deserved there. She built an EV when she was in high school.


I have a temporary plate now, and working brake lights, so I'll be doing some more break in and testing riding this weekend. My custom plate is on its way.
My original plan of "0 C8H18" for the plate fell out of favor because so few people would understand it. I ended up going with "GAS FREE."

billmi
10 March 2011, 1046
Nice work! Congrats on the ride, its definitely something to cherish (mines on home video :)) Your battery current draw should hopefully be lower after a few rides as the batteries perk up.

Help me to understand... How would newness of the batteries affect the amperage needs of the motor and controller? I would expect maybe a little drop as the brushes wear in to shape on the motor.



How noisy is an 11 up front? I am thinking about going to an 11 or 10 just to see how fast I can accelerate.

I wouldn't call it noisy. I can hear it, but it's not loud. I don't plan to stay with 11 up front, just giving it a go to start with to get the highest ratio I can with the stock rear sprocket.

DaveAK
10 March 2011, 1059
I have a temporary plate now, and working brake lights, so I'll be doing some more break in and testing riding this weekend. My custom plate is on its way.
My original plan of "0 C8H18" for the plate fell out of favor because so few people would understand it. I ended up going with "GAS FREE."
It's going to be a fun weekend!

Nuts & Volts
10 March 2011, 1137
Help me to understand... How would newness of the batteries affect the amperage needs of the motor and controller? I would expect maybe a little drop as the brushes wear in to shape on the motor.

Sorry that statement was wrong. I tend to post quicker than my brain works :) I think i was referring to less voltage drop as your batteries cycle due to some break-in time.

OR

I was thinking about capacity not C rate. I dont remember the exact details, but batteries tend to display greater capacity after a break in period. I read this on LiPo batteries, so may not be applicable to LiFePO4

ZoomSmith
10 March 2011, 1341
Billmi,
Are you missing a few batteries? I only see one pack of 6 or 8 cells in the FrakenRide pic.

Nuts & Volts
10 March 2011, 1430
Billmi,
Are you missing a few batteries? I only see one pack of 6 or 8 cells in the FrakenRide pic.

I think he is running 24s of 40Ah, so it looks smaller than a 60Ah pack. Look at his CAD renderings earlier in his thread. It is easier to see all the batteries in those pictures.

Tony Coiro
10 March 2011, 2254
My custom plate is on its way.
My original plan of "0 C8H18" for the plate fell out of favor because so few people would understand it. I ended up going with "GAS FREE."

Oh no..... *groan*

Nuts & Volts
10 March 2011, 2328
Oh no..... *groan*

At least someone gets it, cuz im clueless

billmi
11 March 2011, 0633
I think he is running 24s of 40Ah, so it looks smaller than a 60Ah pack. Look at his CAD renderings earlier in his thread. It is easier to see all the batteries in those pictures.

Yep. The lower box has 14 cells, 8 more are above them (partially hidden by the controller) going back into the frame where the airbox used to be, and a pair are in the original starting battery platform on the rear fender.


At least someone gets it, cuz im clueless

Zero Octane.

Coninsan
11 March 2011, 0633
C8H18 is the chemical formula for Octane, so "0 C8H18" is "Zero Octane" to you and me :)

EVcycle
11 March 2011, 0645
Groan (part 2) :):):)

Skeezmour
11 March 2011, 0650
I thought that was what it was but I stink at chemestry. Feels great getting it going doesn't it :).

teddillard
11 March 2011, 0724
groan... (p3) :O

jpanichella
11 March 2011, 0800
At least someone gets it, cuz im clueless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane

Nuts & Volts
11 March 2011, 0859
C8H18 is the chemical formula for Octane, so "0 C8H18" is "Zero Octane" to you and me :)

Man I feel like I shoulda known that, but maybe its a good thing i dont. Shouldnt need it anymore :)

DRZ400
14 March 2011, 0557
Interested to hear what range you get..... also AH's out. The max I've ever gotten from my 35AH AGM's is 20 AH. When bench testing with a 1C load I got 35AH on the button.

billmi
14 March 2011, 0903
Yep, I'm looking forward to getting more data from the road.

What top speeds were you getting at different gear ratios when you were still running the ME0709?

DRZ400
14 March 2011, 1124
With both motors I gear for 55mph. My cummute to work has 2, 2 mile 45 mph zones so 55 is perfect. With the Agni I'm 6:1. Do you have a way to log AH used?

billmi
14 March 2011, 1352
Yes, but what gear ratio put you at 55mph with the Mars motor?

And yes, I can track amp hours used. I'm running a Cycle Analyst.

DRZ400
14 March 2011, 1410
Looking thru my notes I used both 15/72 & 16/72 52 and 55 MPH. It liked 15/72 best.

billmi
15 March 2011, 0635
Thanks.

And I take it by "liked" you're meaning had better acceleration and or lower battery side amp draw?

I'm thinking 72 may be where I want to end up on the rear sprocket. Banking on less sag with the LiPos than you had with lead, I really doubt I'll want a larger front and that gives me room to go even smaller on the front if I end up with more top speed than I need.

DRZ400
19 March 2011, 1024
Any volt and amp numbers for 50 mph yet? I wondering how much the Calb's sag compared to my AGMS. On flat road at 50mph I am at ~70v, ~63 amps. I took my bike out today, first thime this year. Only did 12 miles and the LVC kicked in on accell....course its only 52 here today.

DRZ400
20 March 2011, 0847
Was watching EVTV, Jack R was doing 4C testing on Calb cells. Although the cells would do it, it wasn't without significant V sag. The first couple bursts went below 10 volts (4 cells, 2.5v per cell). With 50% SOC they were sagging into the 8 volt range. My bike uses 180-220 amps on accelleration (4-5C) for sure theMini- BMS would be hitting the LVC with 40AH cells. I may have to go to 60-70AH CALB's.

podolefsky
20 March 2011, 0856
Was watching EVTV, Jack R was doing 4C testing on Calb cells. Although the cells would do it, it wasn't without significant V sag. The first couple bursts went below 10 volts (4 cells, 2.5v per cell). With 50% SOC they were sagging into the 8 volt range. My bike uses 180-220 amps on accelleration (4-5C) for sure theMini- BMS would be hitting the LVC with 40AH cells. I may have to go to 60-70AH CALB's.

I don't have super-controlled testing data, but I can tell you my experience with GBS cells. I have 60Ah, 76V nom (24 cells) pack. Under hard accelerations I pull over 400A (~7C), and sag to about 68V. That's just over 2.8V / cell, and their LVC is 2.5V.

I asked Rick Suiter at EPS about this, and he said they should do up to 10C no problem (my controller is limited to 450A, so I haven't seen above 7.5C). He also said that their BMS has a delay of about 30 sec on throwing a LVC alarm because going below this for short bursts is actually OK (for example, when accelerating for a few sec). Just relaying what he told me - they honor a 1 year warranty on their systems, so if I was blowing cells this way it would be their loss.

billmi
20 March 2011, 1101
It'll be work to pack 60s into the frame, but the ampavailability annd range would be nice.

I haven't had it up to 50 yet, and won't be on the road again until I sort out charger problems.

How long are you pulling the heavy amperage? I've pulled 200 amp peaks but only for a fraction of a second durring accelleration ( they have to last .5 sec or more to even get displayed, and they don't). You have to hold LVC for 4 seconds to trip the mini BMS at its default setting, though that is adjustable.

DRZ400
20 March 2011, 1108
During your 200 amp peak how low did the V go? I agree, should only be ~2 seconds. I think the CA will log V min and V Max. What is the max AH you've used on a single charge? There's a guy on Evalbum who fit 24 90 AH TS cells. in a EX250 !! Corey I think? Red bike. As I recall someone hit him with a truck and took out the bike. He wasn't hurt.

DRZ400
20 March 2011, 1109
http://www.evalbum.com/1407 EX250 with 24 90AH TS cells.

billmi
20 March 2011, 1320
I was thinking Corey Peterson's build was 60Ah. He got the 90s in there, but there's not much ground clearance.

I'm showing AMax at 220 Amps. Highest I ever saw on the display while riding was 180, and my display update time is set at 1/2 second, meaning the 220 amp load was somewhere under 1/2 second in duration. VMin is 63. Lowest voltage I remember seeing while riding was 75v during acceleration. You can adjust mini BMS's response times, but the cell modules are set by default not to trip LVC until the voltage is low for 4 seconds, so that they don't get fooled by sag during acceleration.

I've only used 12Ah in a couple of runs so far. The cells are sitting at 3.2v right now, and I'm not pulling anything more out of them until the charger is working (it's not going into Charge mode, Chennic originally said they thought that was because the batteries were full, so I discharged some, and still no-go - waiting for their response on a video I put together showing the set-up and the charger's response).

DRZ400
20 March 2011, 1452
Yeah, I won't want 90's. It appears CALB has 70's now, just a tad taller then the 60's. Whats your AH per mile? I can get 1:1 if I try (in the summer). Normal is 1.2 ah/mile. My batterys are 150 lbs....yours should be 1/2 that.

billmi
25 March 2011, 0927
Not in front of it at the moment, but if I remember right when I checked the peak values, the watt-hours per mile was 120 or so - but that's out of 8 miles around the neighborhood - all start-stop-slow to take a corner riding.

Batteries weigh in less at 80 lbs, but that ME0709 is still 30 lbs.

DRZ400
25 March 2011, 1343
Yeah, key is to cal your CA to the shunt.....couple guys I've read were getting 75ah from a 60ah pack and still had reserve :>)
Who did you buy your batterys from?

billmi
26 March 2011, 0635
Also I'm at 1:4 gear ratio, so I doubt acceleration is as efficient as it could be yet.
I bought the batteries from Lithiumstorage.com.

EVcycle
26 March 2011, 0719
If the bike is less than 350 pounds, you should be just fine.

billmi
05 April 2011, 0636
While I go back and forth with Chennic to diagnose and repair the 10 amp charger, I've bought a 15 amp charger from Elite Power Solutions - and it works :-)

Previously I'd cut open the gas tank and welded in mount rails for the charger control relay and the charger. Since the new charger doesn't have holes for mounting screws like the Chennic, I had to grind the screws off the rails, and and was able to strap the slightly larger charger securely in place with hose clamps. It still fits with plenty of clearance when the tank is mounted on the frame.

964

billmi
09 April 2011, 1515
My wife enjoyed her first ride on the Ninja today. We rode to Radio Shack for some more parts. Following behind on my DR200 I could see I'm going to need to build a little sun shade for the LED taillight. When the sun hits it from high overhead, it reflects back out bright enough that the signals get harder to see. After the store, she was ready to ride off across town to show it off to friends, but I'm still keeping it to short trips to top balance with each charge cycle. After we got home she took another pass around the neighborhood for me to catch some video with my phone.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=10150151248108003

DaveAK
09 April 2011, 1531
Awesome stuff!

jpanichella
09 April 2011, 1606
Any chance you can upload that video so that those of us who don't have facebook can see it?

billmi
12 April 2011, 1612
I guess "view by everyone" on Facebook doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like. OK, with a brand fresh YouTube account I can post from my phone:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Be2gsItziXI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

billmi
12 April 2011, 1620
Whats your AH per mile? I can get 1:1 if I try (in the summer). Normal is 1.2 ah/mile. My batterys are 150 lbs....yours should be 1/2 that.

Does Cycle Analyst give amp hours per mile somewhere, or are you calculating it from pack voltage and watt hours per mile on the CA? First few rides were 126 watt hours per mile. Each ride that comes down. On a 6 mile run to the post office and back yesterday with a some 30mph, and mostly 40 and 45mph speed zones, it was 106 watt hours per mile. I suspect the efficiency gain is the brushes on the motor wearing in and increasing their contact area with the commutator.

jpanichella
12 April 2011, 1628
I guess "view by everyone" on Facebook doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like. OK, with a brand fresh YouTube account I can post from my phone:



I think they probably mean "view by everyone...with a facebook".

That little bike looks quick! I assume you've been taking it easy on the pack since it's new. How far have you gone per charge?

BaldBruce
12 April 2011, 1814
Does Cycle Analyst give amp hours per mile somewhere, or are you calculating it from pack voltage and watt hours per mile on the CA? First few rides were 126 watt hours per mile. Each ride that comes down. On a 6 mile run to the post office and back yesterday with a some 30mph, and mostly 40 and 45mph speed zones, it was 106 watt hours per mile. I suspect the efficiency gain is the brushes on the motor wearing in and increasing their contact area with the commutator.


Cycle Analyst does not directly report Ah/mi. At least mine doesn't! It does of course report Ah per trip and miles driven per trip so you can closely aproximate the Ah/mi, although this method ignores regen effects. Wh/mi is better anyway IMO because it not only counts the regen effect, but also voltage sag effect.....

DRZ400
12 April 2011, 1854
I just look down and see 1 mile on the speedo and XX ah. on the CA. I can do 1ah/mile but I gotta take it easy. My watt/hrs per mile is about 85.


Cycle Analyst does not directly report Ah/mi. At least mine doesn't! It does of course report Ah per trip and miles driven per trip so you can closely aproximate the Ah/mi, although this method ignores regen effects. Wh/mi is better anyway IMO because it not only counts the regen effect, but also voltage sag effect.....

billmi
13 April 2011, 1001
I just look down and see 1 mile on the speedo and XX ah. on the CA. I can do 1ah/mile but I gotta take it easy.

Hmmmm....

If I send you a picture of my backyard, can you help me find the forest, too? I'm having trouble spotting it - there are too many trees in the way.


My watt/hrs per mile is about 85.
I'm assuming that was a bit higher before switching to the Agni, yes? My Watt hours per mile higher than I expected on the first couple of rides (120s) but have been coming down (106 on my last ride) I assume due to the brushes wearing in improving motor efficiency. Of course speed comes into play there, too. Ironically my watt hours per mile has come down as I have ridden faster.

billmi
13 April 2011, 1007
That little bike looks quick! I assume you've been taking it easy on the pack since it's new. How far have you gone per charge?

Yes, I've been taking it easy, on distance yet (which limits speed too - at least without risking a ticket) getting more cycles in to give the MinBMS a chance to bring the pack into tighter balance. I've been putting 5-6 miles on it per ride. That's the range I wanted minimum when I started the project as it gets me to stores, the post office and church. I worked full time out of my home then, though. Now I commute in to work. At 106 watt hours/mile, 24 miles will put me at 80% DOD, but my ride in to work is only 13.3 miles, and I can charge there so things are looking good.

DRZ400
13 April 2011, 1041
I'm saying if I do a 10 mile ride and my CA reports 10ah used...I used 1 ah/mile. My wh/mile ranges between 80 - 100 depending on how I drive and the outside temp.....the agms liked 80 plus and hot off the charger. The CA AH do count backwards when using regen.



Hmmmm....

If I send you a picture of my backyard, can you help me find the forest, too? I'm having trouble spotting it - there are too many trees in the way.


I'm assuming that was a bit higher before switching to the Agni, yes? My Watt hours per mile higher than I expected on the first couple of rides (120s) but have been coming down (106 on my last ride) I assume due to the brushes wearing in improving motor efficiency. Of course speed comes into play there, too. Ironically my watt hours per mile has come down as I have ridden faster.

billmi
13 April 2011, 1047
Yes, I get exactly what you're saying, and am embarrassed that I even had to ask where you were getting the info, as the total Ah used is right there on the first screen. I was thinking about the other data screens completely forgetting the one that's constantly on display. If it were a snake, it would have bit me - I was not seeing the forest for the trees.

DRZ400
13 April 2011, 1057
Ah, so you hooked up your speed too. Its nice to get the CA calculated wh/mile.

billmi
18 April 2011, 0944
Yep, I replaced the gauges on the dash with the cycle analyst.

Work for this last week, here and there with a bit more time on the weekend was bodywork on the fairing and tank. I'm no Earl Scheib, but the holes I burnt through it while welding in mount brackets for the charger are gone. The fairing's got more filling and sanding to go.


103210311033

DaveAK
18 April 2011, 1425
That arc reactor's got to give you quite some extended range, huh?

billmi
19 April 2011, 0922
Of course - it's going to charge the bike.
Or at least tell me when the bike is charging - I plan on wiring it in as a charge indicator.

billmi
24 April 2011, 1541
A looong time ago, I repaired the cracked top fairing with ABS cement, and fiberglassed the back for extra support, then puttied in the turn signal indents since I'm going with turn signal integrated mirrors. I've also trimmed down the fairing, so it doesn't extend down as much. I finished painting over the last couple of weeks and got it
mounted this weekend.

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1048&d=1303684421

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1050&d=1303684462

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1047&d=1303684400

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1049&d=1303684444

GUFF
24 April 2011, 1654
That thing is looking killer! Looks light and nimble. I miss my kawi 2fiddy sometimes...

DaveAK
24 April 2011, 1731
Fantastic job Bill!

EVcycle
24 April 2011, 1804
Very cool, and showing what it is really made of!! :)

podolefsky
24 April 2011, 2058
Badass man. Looks like it came straight off the set of Mad Max (that's a good thing, IMO).

Coninsan
25 April 2011, 0230
Badass man. Looks like it came straight off the set of Mad Max (that's a good thing, IMO).

+1 :)

(and now the required amount of text yadayadayada)

Harold in CR
25 April 2011, 0656
Nice looking Bike. Where's da decals ???

DRZ400
25 April 2011, 0742
Cool! With the glass did you just soak it with abs glue? I really like the Calib 40ah cells. Did a 20 AH ride this week end....no noticable change in performance from 1AH to 20AH....with my Sla's its was all down hill after 5ah. How is the mini BMS working out?

billmi
25 April 2011, 0804
Thanks, All.


Where's da decals ???

My office was just moved across town (now a window with a view from the second floor - yay!) so I probably won't have my studio set up for a couple of weeks. When I do, the first thing off the vinyl cutter will probably be the decals.


Cool! With the glass did you just soak it with abs glue?

It's whatever resin was next to the glass matting in Home Depot. Polyester resin, if I remember correctly - it was less expensive than the epoxy resin, but it's bonded plenty well and held up to hand flex testing without peeling away from the fairing or cracking.


I really like the Calib 40ah cells. Did a 20 AH ride this week end....no noticable change in performance from 1AH to 20AH....with my Sla's its was all down hill after 5ah. How is the mini BMS working out?

Yes, so far everything's been great on the battery end, I'm very happy with my choice of CALB. I didn't manually balance them, and at top of charge, there's a ways to go. I'm keeping an eye on them to see if the MiniBMS shunting is enough to bring them closer together in a reasonable number of cycles. As for the MiniBMS, I'm quite happy with it. Really easy to install and operate. I have the arc reactor wired in parallel to the BMS' charger control relay, so it acts as an indicator letting me know if charging was stopped by the MiniBMS from HVC (since I can't see the relay's LED or all of the cell module LEDs with the tank on).

DRZ400
25 April 2011, 0825
Until I get my back ordered celllogs I've been the BMS....all 24 cells stay very closely balanced until just over 3.4 volts...then they start to drift. The dangerous part is they can so from 3.45 to over 3.6 in just a few minutes. What I've been doing is not reseting my CA and putting in the same ah as I've used. My highest cell with this methold is less then 3.5v.....but it requires you not get distracting during the final minutes. I bougth some 10amp diodes to put in serieres with my charger to reduce the final voltage by 2.1 volts. This should help ensure no cell goes over 3.6.

DRZ400
25 April 2011, 1224
How did you get the decals off the tank? Are they clear coated over?

billmi
25 April 2011, 1503
Yep - you won't see the difference in the unbalance until you get to the knee of the charge curve either at the top of the bottom. It's got to be great not to be losing power after the first few miles.

As for the decals - there is a layer of clearcoat over them, bonding them to the tank. A heatgun and a razorblade got most of them off, with lighter fluid (napthalene, for Zippo style lighters, not charcoal lighter fluid) breaking down a lot of the adhesive that was left, and sandpaper taking it down. The process did not leave the original paintjob intact.

billmi
13 May 2011, 1240
This week's additions, were some new decals for a little extra flair.

Last night I had a hankering for some BBQ ribs, and the best ribs in town are not at the BBQ places, they're at Longdoggers, a surf bar and grill. We rode over, but hadn't realized until we got there - it was Thursday night - Bike Night. While a band was setting up on stage and guys were polishing their custom cruiser show bikes, we just parked in the back of the lot and headed in for some food. Afterwards we came out and there were half a dozen people standing around my bike, waiting to ask questions. They all were enthusiastic with plenty of questions about how long it took to build, battery chemistry, charge curves, how the BMS worked, how our cooling vests worked. They were all interested and supportive.

11691170

podolefsky
13 May 2011, 1245
Nice! That's been my experience too. I haven't met a single biker that wasn't enthusiastic about my bike.

Coninsan
13 May 2011, 1319
Very nice! The red really pops, very nice effect. I like it :D

billmi
24 May 2011, 1530
Finally got around to snapping some pictures with a proper camera, not just my mobile phone.

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg349/billmi/LowFront.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg349/billmi/OvergrownRoad_02.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg349/billmi/Controller.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg349/billmi/License_Plate.jpg

Nuts & Volts
24 May 2011, 1533
hubba hubba.

Now you're making me drool all over my nice shirt!

jpanichella
24 May 2011, 1538
That looks great Bill! Very nicely done.

teddillard
24 May 2011, 1623
BADASS!

LOVES it! :D

EVcycle
24 May 2011, 1626
Very cool. Love the 82V Sticker too!

billmi
30 May 2011, 0712
Thanks for the positive feedback :-)

I'm no artist when it comes to bodywork, so trust me - the pictures are at enough of a distance that the finish imperfections on the tank and fairing don't show so well (in fact the "Sensei" graphics are strategically placed to hide the areas where I filled in from the original turn signals).

Last week's additions were a 1.2 amp power supply in parallel with the Vicor, to provide power to the MiniBMS during the charge cycle, allowing me to leave the Vicor off, and finally my Cell Logs are mounted on the bike. I put the Cell Logs in a plastic project box to weatherproof them. I cut an opening in the top of the box, and glued in a clear vinyl membrane, so they are weather resistant, but I can still hit their buttons to turn them on and cycle the menus. The CellLogs are Velcroed to a piece of 1x2 glued in the box. I have the Cell Logs set to switch into sleep mode after 1 minute of inactivity. I mounted the box on the upper battery pack, so I'm not temtped to look at them while riding and be distracted. when I'm off the bike, it's nice to be able to check individual cell voltages with no hassle at all.

http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1281&d=1306764000
http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1280&d=1306763989
http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1278&d=1306763965

And this one's a beefy low RPM hybrid EV motor that I saw in Orlando. I snapped some pics with my phone but keep forgetting to post them.
http://www.elmoto.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1279&d=1306763979

Harold in CR
30 May 2011, 1136
That's looking GREAT, Bill.

I'm going to be in Barefoot bay from this Thursday, for 2 weeks. Any chance we can meet up ?? I would love to see that in person.:cool::cool:

billmi
01 June 2011, 0558
Certainly, I'll PM my phone number.

Barefoot Bay is practically right around the corner.

billmi
02 June 2011, 0918
I'm less enamored with the cell logs. Just siting overnigh in "sleep" mode they drain enough current to pull thepack out of balance (unmodified, they pull from 6 of the 8 cells to which they are connected). I think I may pull them back off and store one on board where I can plug it in when I want to check voltage.

DRZ400
02 June 2011, 1002
Yeah, I just left the 3, JST-8s on and pluged them in during charging first few times....don't bother anymore I still haven't put on the Mini-bms's, just been charging with 3 diodes in series with the 86.4v charger....never use more then 33AH. This weekend I'm going to add a cell and remove the diodes.

billmi
02 July 2011, 0548
I finally got around to dropping the as-built cad model into a realtime virtual reality Java app, and spinning together a web page to host it:

http://corin.com/sensei/design3.shtml

podolefsky
02 July 2011, 0727
That is really really cool.

larryrose11
02 July 2011, 1343
Awesome!
love the animation!

frodus
06 July 2011, 0852
nice!

Where is the rear shock? On mine, the space is kinda limited under the seat towards the rear of the bike. Are those batteries going to fit ok?

billmi
06 July 2011, 0926
nice!

Where is the rear shock? On mine, the space is kinda limited under the seat towards the rear of the bike.

No rear shock, just magnets :-)

No, I hadn't modeled it, because I originally didn't plan on batteries in the back, but the top of the shock is below and slightly in front of the two rear cells.



Are those batteries going to fit ok?

For sure - I've been riding the finished bike for months - check the rest of the site - http://corin.com/sensei

frodus
06 July 2011, 0946
ahh, sorry, i'm dumb, i think my brain checked out over the 4th....lol

billmi
06 July 2011, 1122
It's summer - holidays throw the whole week :-)