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coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 0923
C Savaria and me are starting a electric motorcycle project. We already have are motorcycle, a 1992 gsxr 750 in working condition. We are entering the second third week of the project, and we need some information about the electrical standards we need to respect. Also, we are both students in mechanical engineering, and we are trying to find information that could help us with the engineering of the electrical system (formulas) .

We are running on a very limited budget, so a 48 volt, deep cycle lead batteries would be are choice. We know that the motor we are probably going to buy need 150 amps.

If you have any suggestions for us, don't hesitate to contact us.

1190119111921193

frodus
16 May 2011, 0936
do more than 48V if you want the thing to go a decent speed, and with 150A that motor might be a little small.

What motor is it?

electriKAT
16 May 2011, 0943
Based on your user name, am I correct in assuming you are located in Washington, DC?

DaveAK
16 May 2011, 0947
Based on your user name, am I correct in assuming you are located in Washington, DC?
The bike only has kmh on the speedo. My guess is somewhere outside of the states or the UK.

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 0951
do more than 48V if you want the thing to go a decent speed, and with 150A that motor might be a little small.

What motor is it?

It's a 48v EMC-R. it comes as a kit with a Alltrax 4834 controller.

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 0952
We are in Montreal, Quebec

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 0955
coolguyndc = cool guy (I know, it's a bad name) + NDC (my initials)

frodus
16 May 2011, 1013
It's a 48v EMC-R. it comes as a kit with a Alltrax 4834 controller.

A bit small IMHO.

Maybe something larger like this:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_me1003.php

It'l be a bit slow otherwise, but if you just wanna get it running, get a large gear reduction, like 6 or 7:1 ratio.

ZoomSmith
16 May 2011, 1113
Welcome to elmoto! Great platform for conversion.

You should be able to get a decent price for your ICE components. Looks like a nice canadian spec '92 water cooled gixxer.
What are your speed and range goals. How limited is your budget?

Do we have standards? (LOL)

electriKAT
16 May 2011, 1503
We are in Montreal, Quebec

I guessed wrong ;) Welcome to elmoto. I agree with the others, you will probably be disappointed with 48 volts. Upgrading is not as simple as buying more batteries. I would suggest looking at more of the conversions on here and doing more research before spending any money.

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 1918
the plan is at least 70 km/h (40-45 mph). we were planing for a big gear ratio.

Scooter performance

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 1922
actually, it's a rare 1992 air cooled 750. the guys at my dealer didn't believe me when I told them it was air cooled (no fan= air cooled)

we would like to stay under 4500$ dollars (with motorcycle).

70 km/h, 40km range if possible.

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 1925
for the standards, we take the suggested International Electrotechnical Commission standards that ttxgp suggest.

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 1933
we would like to know how to calculate the performance of a system with diffrence volts/amps capacities.

jpanichella
16 May 2011, 1938
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?986-Elmoto-v2.0-Data-sheet

coolguyndc
16 May 2011, 2022
Thank you!!!!!

podolefsky
16 May 2011, 2126
actually, it's a rare 1992 air cooled 750. the guys at my dealer didn't believe me when I told them it was air cooled (no fan= air cooled)

we would like to stay under 4500$ dollars (with motorcycle).

70 km/h, 40km range if possible.

Welcome to el moto!

After the motorcycle, how much is left in your budget?

(And just so I don't have to keep using my calculator...24 miles range, 45 mph.)

podolefsky
16 May 2011, 2135
It's a 48v EMC-R. it comes as a kit with a Alltrax 4834 controller.

For just a bit more money, the ME0709 with Alltrax 7234 is a much better package. It will handle 72V, but you can run it at 48V until you can afford more batteries (actually, only two more 12V lead acid).

See kit #4C

http://evdrives.com/kits_conversion.html

ZoomSmith
16 May 2011, 2139
Wow that is a rare bike. The '92's were all air-oil-cooled in the states, but I thought all the Canadian ones were water-cooled that year.

Since it's an "oiler" the ICE pieces may be more valuable. Have you priced out what you can get for the motor, cooler, carbs & ignition?

coolguyndc
17 May 2011, 0350
the bike was 800, but we are selling the original parts (engine, aftermarket and original parts). so, are budget with bike is between 3700-4500$ , 3700 being the worst case scenario (garage full of leftover parts and electric parts, and less money).

coolguyndc
17 May 2011, 0356
not yet (the bike is still one piece, because it had to be on the road for at least one month. In Quebec, the cost for the license plate for this bike for one year is 1445$!!!!! , so in a week, i'm going to put it in ''storage'', so I will be refund 80% of that price.

We are hopping to sell the parts for a good price.

podolefsky
17 May 2011, 0953
You should definitely play with the elmoto spreadsheet and see what you can do. Here's an example set up that should be within your budget:

ME0709 motor / Alltrax 7234 kit w/ contactor: $900
Magura Throttle: $50
GBS 40Ah, 72V lithium battery pack: $2300 (includes BMS)
Sprockets: $15-100 (depending on if you need a new rear)
Chain: $50
Misc cable and such: $100
Materials for battery shelf, motor mount, other odds n ends: $200 (estimate)

Total: $3700 (USD)

This would easily get you a top speed of 70-90 kph, 40 km range. Way better than scooter performance.

You could save about $1000 with lead acid, but keep in mind they weigh twice as much. Lithium will last at least 4 times longer, probably more.

DRZ400
17 May 2011, 1007
You could save about $700 and still use Li by using 24 Calib 40AH cells (~1300) and the (~300) minibms-24.

podolefsky
17 May 2011, 1013
You could save about $700 and still use Li by using 24 Calib 40AH cells (~1300) and the (~300) minibms-24.

True - but you'd also need a charger. Probably around $300-500 depending.

Can also look for used motor, controller, charger. I'd stay away from used batteries.

coolguyndc
17 May 2011, 1643
Thank you very much guys. Now, I need to sort things out to find out what suits me best.

coolguyndc
03 June 2011, 1746
We decided to go with a 48 volt system, GBS 48 volt 40ah battery pack, and the #2A-C motor/ controller pack from:
http://evdrives.com/kits_conversion.html . My only question is that the motor will draw 400 amps for one minute, and that the batteries are supposed to be able to give 400 amps max at 10c, so am I overloading the batteries by asking the to perform 100% of their capacity?

podolefsky
03 June 2011, 1810
Those cells won't do 400A for more than a few seconds. You don't want to pull more than 3C for a minute, and 1-2C for any longer than that.

If you're set on 48V, 40Ah cells, you might as well get kit #2C for $200 less. Keep in mind, I think that with 48V you'll be limited to about 50 mph.

All depends on your budget, but I suspect you'll grow out of 48V very quickly. It's a lot cheaper to just go for 72V right away than to upgrade later on. You save about $150 with kit #4C, add $750 for 72V GBS...$600 and you'll probably be a lot happier. Just my 2c.

coolguyndc
03 June 2011, 1901
Are second choice is a 72 volt system, with the 4c kit. Are dimension matrix gave the 48 volt 2a-c kit first place, and the 4c second place (1.8 % difference)
Did you have any fitting problems in your gsxr for the batteries (72 volt)?

podolefsky
03 June 2011, 1921
I was able to fit 72V, 60Ah system in my GSX-R...but it's a 93, totally different frame. I believe Coninsan has fit 72V, 60Ah thundersky cells in his 97 GSX-R, so a 72V 40Ah system shouldn't be a problem at all.

podolefsky
03 June 2011, 2034
Are second choice is a 72 volt system, with the 4c kit. Are dimension matrix gave the 48 volt 2a-c kit first place, and the 4c second place (1.8 % difference)
Did you have any fitting problems in your gsxr for the batteries (72 volt)?

By the way, what's a dimension matrix? Sounds pretty sweet.

coolguyndc
06 June 2011, 1446
a dimension matrix is a tool made to help decide the direction of a project, to help decide the components.

Here is are dimension matrix. I know, it`s in french, sorry about that.


1306

coolguyndc
12 July 2011, 1555
Here are some pics of the naked frame and parts of the gsxr.

Enjoy.14071408140914101411

EVcycle
12 July 2011, 1708
Does that look so familiar!


A GSXR makes a great EV!

ZoomSmith
12 July 2011, 1710
Ahhh, the fun begins.
Is the bodywork in good shape?

coolguyndc
12 July 2011, 1900
just a few scratches. I am working with my uncle to make a school project for his student regarding the bike. They will have to design the look of the bike, the name of the bike and a logo for the bike, so they can practice what they learn in class on a real life project.

The only problem that I have now is my goverment, witch gave me a list of required equipement and specs for the bike. I cannot change the weight distribution on the bike, and it cannot weight more than the original bike. These requirements are easiest to do, but are going to be hard to respect.

We will see in a couple of months.

Skeezmour
12 July 2011, 1933
That is what removable luggage is for :-)

coolguyndc
13 July 2011, 0546
I don't know if any of you speak french, but here is the list of the requirements that I have to respect:

<< Éléments à considérer lors de la conversion d'un véhicule en véhicule électrique

Masse et charge

* Ne pas dépasser le poids nominal brut du véhicule (PNBV) établi par le manufacturier;
* Ne pas dépasser le poids nominal brut par essieu (PNBE) établi par le manufacturier aux fins de calcul du poids total du véhicule, utiliser 70 kg pour chacun des sièges du véhicule.
* Respecter la distribution de la masse du véhicule sur chaque essieu pour maintenir une distribution adéquate de l'effort de freinage, de la stabilité.
* Respecter l'emplacement du centre de masse original.

Équipements, voyants et indicateurs

* Un voyant lumineux doit être prévu pour indiquer au conducteur que le véhicule est « actif », c'est-à-dire qu'une rotation de l'accélérateur se traduira par un déplacement du véhicule.
* L'accélérateur doit demeurer à la droite du guidon et par rotation de la poignée (un rhéostat à commande manuelle n'est pas acceptable)
* Une affiche doit être apposée du côté gauche sur le carénage pour signaler la présence de haute tension sur le véhicule. Une seconde affiche doit être apposée du côté droit sur une portion du carénage arrière.

Modifications apportées au véhicule

* Les batteries doivent être fixées de façon à pouvoir résister à une force d'arrachement équivalente à 10 g. Elles doivent être protégées de façon à ne pas éclabousser d'électrolyte le conducteur en cas d'accident.
* Considérant qu'une motocyclette s'incline dans les virages, le type de batterie ne doit pas permettre le déversement d'électrolyte.

Installation électrique du véhicule

* Le câblage électrique doit être approprié au type de courant, à son intensité, à sa tension (voltage), à la température de fonctionnement ambiante. Dans la portion du circuit qui est à haute tension (tension du moteur), ces câbles doivent être identifiés par la couleur orange (gaine ou ruban adhésif). L'utilisation de câbles de type Leoni Hivocar destinés aux véhicules électriques est souhaitable. Le câblage doit être protégé mécaniquement contre l'endommagement aux endroits requis.
* Le circuit doit comporter des dispositifs de sectionnement manuels et automatiques dont des fusibles en cas de court-circuit et des dispositifs à inertie en cas de collision qui ouvriront le circuit d'alimentation du moteur. Des dispositifs supplémentaires pourraient être nécessaires pour diminuer la tension maximale (par exemple, séparer les batteries en sous-groupe d'au plus 36 volts).
* L'alimentation du moteur doit nécessiter la fermeture d'au moins deux contacteurs. Le premier doit être activé par la clé du contact principal (position ON du commutateur de démarrage). Le second est activé par l'accélérateur.
* Les éléments porteurs de la haute tension doivent être isolés par rapport à toute structure conductrice. L'isolation devrait être d'au moins 500 ohms/volt pour tout circuit à courant continu (CC ou DC).
* Les champs électriques et magnétiques engendrés par les nouveaux circuits électriques ne doivent pas produire d'interférence pouvant nuire au bon fonctionnement des contrôles électroniques (ABS si présent).
* La borne de recharge doit être interverrouillée avec la commande motrice pour éviter que le véhicule se déplace alors qu'il est toujours relié à la station de recharge (cette exigence ne s'applique pas s'il n'y a pas de tension à la borne mâle de la rallonge lorsqu'elle est retirée de la prise murale).
* Le chargeur utilisé pour la recharge des accumulateurs doit être certifié par un organisme reconnu par le Code de construction du Québec - chapitre 2 - Électricité. Si le chargeur est monté à même le véhicule, le circuit d'alimentation entre le chargeur et la borne de recharge doit être certifié.
* L'accès aux pièces ou composants sous haute tension doit nécessiter l'utilisation d'outils (outil simple tel un tournevis est acceptable).
* Lorsqu'en place, les couvercles de protection ne doivent pas permettre à une tige de 10 cm de longueur d'atteindre un point nu du circuit qui est sous haute tension.

Comme prévu à l'article 214 du Code de la sécurité routière, vous devez d'abord faire autoriser votre projet de modification par notre service. Vous devrez fournir des détails tels que la description des composants, des croquis des modifications mécaniques, du circuit électrique et des dispositifs de protection, etc. Enfin, il est probable qu'un rapport d'ingénieur soit exigé afin de nous assurer que le véhicule est suffisamment sécuritaire pour circuler sur le réseau. >>

teddillard
13 July 2011, 0654
nope. flunked that too... (along with German) :O

Can you link us so maybe we can get a translation?

ZoomSmith
13 July 2011, 0715
Thank you Google Translate!
Seems fairly reasonable except for the "two contactors" requirement.

Things to consider when converting a vehicle electric vehicle

Mass and charge

* Do not exceed the gross vehicle weight (GVWR) set by the manufacturer;
* Do not exceed the axle weight rating (GVWR) set by the manufacturer for the purposes of calculating the total weight of the vehicle, using 70 kg for each seat of the vehicle.
* Observe the distribution of vehicle mass on each axle to maintain an adequate distribution of the braking, stability.
* Observe the location of the original center of mass.

Equipment, lights and indicators

* An LED must be provided to indicate to the driver that the vehicle is "active", that is to say that rotation of the throttle will result in a movement of the vehicle.
* The accelerator must remain on the right handlebar and rotation of the handle (a manually operated rheostat is not acceptable)
* A poster [sticker??] must be displayed on the left side of the fairing to indicate the presence of high tension [voltage??] on the vehicle. A second poster must be displayed on the right side of a portion of the rear fascia.

Modifications to the vehicle

* Batteries must be secured so that it can withstand a breakout force equivalent to 10 g. They must be protected so that it does not splash electrolyte driver in an accident.
* Considering that motorcycle leans when cornering, the type of battery should not permit the release of electrolyte.

Vehicle's electrical installation

* Electrical wiring must be appropriate to the type of current, its intensity, its tension (voltage), the ambient operating temperature. In the portion of the circuit is high voltage (motor voltage), these cables must be identified by the orange color (or duct tape). The use of cable type Leoni Hivocar for electric vehicles is desirable. Wiring should be mechanically protected against damage where required.
* The circuit should include stop valves [switches??] with manual and automatic fuses in case of short circuits and devices with inertia in a collision that will open the fuel system of the engine. Additional devices may be necessary to reduce the maximum voltage (eg, separate batteries in small groups of up to 36 volts).
* The power of the engine must require the closure of at least two contactors. The first must be activated by the ignition key (position of the start switch). The second is activated by the accelerator.
* The bearing capacity of the high voltage must be isolated from any conductive structure. The insulation should be at least 500 ohms / volt for every circuit current (DC or DC).
* The electric and magnetic fields generated by the new circuits should not generate interference that may damage the operation of electronic controls (ABS if present).
* The charging station must be interlocked with the motor command to ensure that the vehicle is moving while it is still connected to the docking station (this requirement does not apply if there is no voltage the male terminal of the extension when it is removed from the wall outlet).
* The charger used to recharge the batteries must be certified by an organization recognized by the Quebec Construction Code - Chapter 2 - Electricity. If the charger is mounted directly on the vehicle, the power circuit between the charger and the charging station must be certified.
* Access to parts or high voltage components shall require the use of tools (simple tool like a screwdriver is acceptable).
* When in place, the protective covers must not allow a rod 10 cm long to reach a bare circuit which is under high tension.

As provided for in section 214 of the Highway Safety Code, you must first authorize your proposed changes by our service. You must provide details such as description of components, modifications of mechanical drawings, electrical system and protection devices, etc.. Finally, it is likely that engineer's report is required to ensure that the vehicle is sufficiently safe for use on the network.

teddillard
13 July 2011, 0723
showoff.

(flunked google translate too)

frodus
13 July 2011, 0848
two contactors? sheesh. The EMF thing might be hard to measure though.

I like the requirements though. Inertial Switch, orange HV cables, isolation of the HV from the chassis (requires an isolated DC-DC), interlocked charger, HV accessibility....

pretty complicated, seems like they don't want em on the road......

Allen_okc
13 July 2011, 0919
the vehicle code for electric bikes seems like just plain common sense ruling - im sure basically we here pretty much fit the standard of that vehicle code. well maybe not all...

now im curious about the rules here in oklahoma...

Allen_okc
13 July 2011, 0922
two contactors? sheesh. The EMF thing might be hard to measure though.

I like the requirements though. Inertial Switch, orange HV cables, isolation of the HV from the chassis (requires an isolated DC-DC), interlocked charger, HV accessibility....

pretty complicated, seems like they don't want em on the road......

Well Travis does seem like the world is fighting the EV, or maybe the big oil companies have something to do with it...

it wouldnt surprise me if they came up with a law that vehicles cant be too quite while driving on the road, as another scam to stop the EV's...

coolguyndc
13 July 2011, 1012
What is EMF?

(I'm good in english, but not perfect)

coolguyndc
13 July 2011, 1017
And I have to say that I am happy that they emailed me those requirements, because I'm not sure I would of thought of all these things to do. I am studying mechanical engineering after all.

frodus
13 July 2011, 1037
What is EMF?

(I'm good in english, but not perfect)

the electro magnetic flux, I should have said EMI, electro magnetic interference. High voltage/current devices can screw up other sensitive devices.

ZoomSmith
13 July 2011, 1054
two contactors? sheesh. The EMF thing might be hard to measure though.

I like the requirements though. Inertial Switch, orange HV cables, isolation of the HV from the chassis (requires an isolated DC-DC), interlocked charger, HV accessibility....

pretty complicated, seems like they don't want em on the road......

I find it refreshing, they seem to at least have put some thought into it. Unlike most of our DMV's in the US.

kd8cgo
13 July 2011, 1159
* The power of the engine must require the closure of at least two contactors. The first must be activated by the ignition key (position of the start switch). The second is activated by the accelerator.In reading the requirements regarding the contactors, I am thinking that they do not necessarily imply two high-current, pack voltage contactors i.e. those used to switch power to the motor controller, but rather, any form of relay interlock, for instance a throttle stop micro switch powering a movement inhibiting relay. Switching full pack voltage to the controller on each rotation of the throttle from a stop is impractical and potentially dangerous design tenet in my opinion, so if that is what they are implying it would seem to be flawed. On the other hand most of the commercial electric throttle assemblies I know of have some sort of integral contacts that close when the accelerator is at its 'rest' position. The second "contactor" by this interpretation would simply safeguard against runaway due to loss of accurate throttle position.


As provided for in section 214 of the Highway Safety Code, you must first authorize your proposed changes by our service. You must provide details such as description of components, modifications of mechanical drawings, electrical system and protection devices, etc.. Finally, it is likely that engineer's report is required to ensure that the vehicle is sufficiently safe for use on the network.This small entry at the end however seems like it would be a ridiculous burden to impose on a single vehicle conversion. On the other hand, I would certainly hope that a manufacturer or commercial vehicle conversion business would be held to this kind of standard, and those enterprises will have qualified staff engineers or business contacts that could fulfill this requirement easily enough.

Most other points seem to make sense to me, for the most part. Barring complications with the governing authority, I look forward to seeing this build completed! I was particularly interested in your use of a dimension matrix, very practical decision making tool it would seem.

coolguyndc
13 July 2011, 1905
The dimension matrix helps to make a rational decision when you cannot be rational (or that all the possibilities are mixed in your head ).

Reading you guys saying that the requirements are reasonable makes me less anxious about the project.

Thanks for the moral boost.

SplinterOz
13 July 2011, 1954
These are very similar to the Australian ones outlined here....
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP14_Guidelines_Electric_Drive_01Jan2011.pdf

coolguyndc
13 July 2011, 2117
I like the fact that they have an official document. They gave me a list by email, and depending on the person that follows my project, those things could change.

SplinterOz
13 July 2011, 2134
I didn't include it but they also have one for modified or custom built motorcycles. Covers lighting breaks etc.... It is really good to know before you start.

coolguyndc
14 July 2011, 0742
Yep. They gave me a document like that, modified motorcycle being popular here.

coolguyndc
23 July 2011, 0601
I found out tha my charts are called dissisonal matrix, not dimensional.

coolguyndc
16 August 2011, 1134
Here is the possible layout of the components of the bike

We had to change to a 48volt system, because of weight issues.

So, we have 4 60amp/hour batteries and a 6kw 48v motor running at 3700 rpm

1561

1562

1563

Allen_okc
16 August 2011, 1153
looks like good work coolguyndc - im really interested to see what kinda of performance you get with a 48 volt system, which is what im running right now...

ZoomSmith
16 August 2011, 1156
Hey CoolGuy,

Do those cardboard mockups include your terminals and space for cabling?

coolguyndc
16 August 2011, 1453
Hey CoolGuy,

Do those cardboard mockups include your terminals and space for cabling?

No, not for now. every thing fits tight at the moment. I guess that an inch is enough space, right? Are motor and batteries seems huge in the frame.

If you have any suggestions, please tell me.

ZoomSmith
16 August 2011, 1630
I would seriously consider a different battery format. Those huge batteries are very difficult to arrange in a pre-existing structure.

If you are committed to that battery, maybe drop one of the cells between the lower frame rails, and then put three of them longitudinally across the width of the frame just above the motor. The lower you can put the batteries, the better your handling will be.

Something like the attached image? (ignore the back battery on the upper level, yours are too long for that)

coolguyndc
16 August 2011, 1640
I will consider your recommendation (we only did this setup). Thanks

coolguyndc
16 August 2011, 1643
By curiosity, is this your bike?

ZoomSmith
16 August 2011, 1655
That was indeed an early mockup of mine (see the October 26, 2008 entry in my blog).
Funny thing is that I had those cardboard "batteries" in my garage up until a few weeks ago.

Allen_okc
17 August 2011, 0539
dropping the batteries below the frame will help with the balance of the bike too - is that correct?

coolguyndc
17 August 2011, 0933
Yes, but the most important thing is to keep the original center of gravity. changing it can unbalance the bike.

podolefsky
17 August 2011, 1026
Placing batteries lower will lower the center of gravity. A lower CG can make a bike feel more stable, but it depends on what you're used to. Having it higher can help you tip the bike into turns if you know what you're doing.

People also lower bikes, which has a similar effect. It'll change the way the bike handles, but whether that's good or bad depends on the bike, how you ride, and your personal preference.

coolguyndc
11 September 2011, 1748
Picture update>

Gaz tank cut open, fake batteries placed in logical location and body put pack on the bike.

<a href="http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/?action=view&amp;current=DSC00044-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/DSC00044-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


We forgot to put the motor inside before putting back the body. At least, it's more easy to see the size of the motor.

<a href="http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/?action=view&amp;current=DSC00053.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/DSC00053.jpg" border="0"alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/?action=view&amp;current=DSC00056.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/DSC00056.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


The picture below shows that even if you put a battery between the bottom rails, it doesn't sit below the the body.

<a href="http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/?action=view&amp;current=DSC00063.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n534/coolguyndc/electric%20GSX-R%20750%201992/DSC00063.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

coolguyndc
28 September 2011, 0443
I am starting to make a document on my electric components and requirements.One of my teacher will help me to design the electric system of my bike (remember,am studying mechanics ). If anybody as recommendations for the wiring setup, I am open for recommendations.

coolguyndc
12 October 2011, 0922
Here is a video of the work I havedone on the bike (nothing much, realy).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ddM780I_c

This winter, I will buy the components of the bike and make a test bench. This way, I will know how to connect my parts before I instal everything on the bike.

Remotecontact
12 October 2011, 1000
LOL, love the music! The GSXR is a great platform.

coolguyndc
12 October 2011, 1454
My friend is going to be happy that you like is music.

The funny thing is that we bought the GSXR before finding out that alot of people take that bike for electric conversions.

jpanichella
12 October 2011, 1534
*throws the horns*

coolguyndc
14 October 2011, 0541
Thanks for the Link for Electrical Project, viney.

coolguyndc
14 October 2011, 0543
Thanks for your nice information.

By curiosity, what information areyou talking about?

ZoomSmith
14 October 2011, 0703
Um, dude, you are having a conversation with spammer.

Didn't your mama teach you not to talk to strangers?

Mr. viney has been zapped.

coolguyndc
15 October 2011, 0621
Um, dude, you are having a conversation with spammer.

Didn't your mama teach you not to talk to strangers?

Mr. viney has been zapped.

I was always a naive kind of guy.

coolguyndc
22 October 2011, 2158
I have made my first set of cardboard battery mounts. They look pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcEgLItf-TU

coolguyndc
01 December 2011, 2036
OK. I decided that it was time to take care of some of my goverment's safety request for my bike. So, my partner and I will start to test, with ANSYS, the resistances of our battery trays to ensure the resist the 10g requested by the Transports Canada. So, here are two of our designs

version 2.0
2088

version 2.1
2089

If the verion 2.0 doesn't pass, the 2.1 is our only choice. I hope it wont get to that (It cost more and weight more). I still have to keep the weight under the original weight.

Tell me what you think.

ZoomSmith
02 December 2011, 1155
That's a pretty complex assembly. Nice work!

How thick is your material?

Can you post the ANSYS results when you are done?

coolguyndc
02 December 2011, 1214
They are two 1/4 inch steel plates (the dark gray). All of the battery trays are in 1/8 inch aluminum (except the connecting brackets).

The tubes are .75 x .75 inch aluminum square tubes, .120 wall thickness.

My friend will do the ANSYS analysis when he will havethe time (he will do it at his job, after work hours. He still doesn't know if he will have te right to do it). If he can't do it, I will do it at my school.

ZoomSmith
02 December 2011, 1339
Not sure what your loading and mounting points are, but I predict a problem with v2.0.
The front of the upper box is going flex in significantly.

coolguyndc
02 December 2011, 1921
I also think so.... I hope that the it wont happen.

Frank
04 December 2011, 0637
Can you remove passenger footpegs and seat (that should allow an extra 70 kg load)?

(p.s.: J'ai demeure dans les Cantons de l'Est pendant longtemps....)

coolguyndc
04 December 2011, 1120
I thought to remove the foot pegs, to ''confuse the SAAQ'', but I belive that they would still put the weight on it (bare frame). The thing is that the weight distribution should be the same. Even if I never take passengers, they wont care.

Also, I belive the bike will be front heavy.

Since I am far from having the money to buy the components, I still have time to make sure every thing is SAAQ rated.

Me and my partner really want to make it road legal, so if it takes us 2 years to make the bike, we will take the time to make it work. Besides, In two years, I will have finished university. I may consider the bike as my research project.

Frank
04 December 2011, 1240
Sounds good. Where do you go to school may I ask?

coolguyndc
04 December 2011, 1338
École de technologie Supérieure (ETS). It's a personal projet, not a school project.

Frank
04 December 2011, 1400
I was just curious... I did a M.Eng. at Ecole Polytechnique.

coolguyndc
04 December 2011, 1406
What is your expertise?

Frank
04 December 2011, 1421
Mechanical, but all my work experience is in manufacturing.

coolguyndc
05 December 2011, 1353
I'm also in Mechanical, but I specialise in mechanical design.

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 1138
New update. I figured out that 40 Ah batteries would be ok with our new motor choice, and still give us enought range to meet our requirements. So, we will be starting soon the ansys test on the version 2.2

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 1530
Here are the firsts ANSYS results for the V2.0 of our battery tray.

2125
2123
2126
2124
2122

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 1536
5 more

2127
2128
2129
2130
2131

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 1536
Finaly

2132

the results: the two steel brackets hold, but the aluminum boxes don't.

(they can endure only 50% of the forces...)

ZoomSmith
06 December 2011, 1746
Bummer, but not too surprising.
Interested to see v2.1

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 1758
Bummer, but not too surprising.
Interested to see v2.1

Actualy, we are going directly to version 2.2

2133

Because we are changing to smaller batteries, the g forces will be reduced. I integreted two air boxes for the two tops batteries, to cool them with the stock air vents.

This should do better.

We are also using the batteries in the model, to analyse the trays better. We are going to used hdpe for their materials. the are made of 1/4 inch walls, each batteries made of 4 compartements.

coolguyndc
06 December 2011, 2020
the results: the two steel brackets hold, but the aluminum boxes don't.

(they can endure only 50% of the forces...)

The total amount of force on the mounts is about 1000 pounds. This means 250 pounds for each tray, the top one is 500 pounds.

So, if the final bike is 196 kg, the total amount of force on the bike will be 4312 pounds....

coolguyndc
11 February 2012, 1840
I am close to start to buy my parts for bench tests. I wanted to know what gauge of wire I should use fo my system. I will run close to 100% power. the motor is the mars me-0909 http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_me0909.php

electric motorsports sales the motor with 6 gauge wires.... Can any body help me with this?

lugnut
11 February 2012, 2112
I am close to start to buy my parts for bench tests. I wanted to know what gauge of wire I should use fo my system. I will run close to 100% power. the motor is the mars me-0909 http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_me0909.php

electric motorsports sales the motor with 6 gauge wires.... Can any body help me with this?

The link says 100A continuous rated motor. 100A is pushing the limit for #6 if you ask me. #6 might do for a bench test but I'd go heavier in the bike. The link also claims 300A for 30 minutes on that motor, which sounds like a stretch to me. But 30 minutes would basically be continuous as far as the cable is concerned. So you should probably use cable size compatible with your controller rating and battery rating and fuse. Typically MC cable lengths are short. I think if you went with #2 AWG 105C welding cable you'd cook the motor before overheating cable.

podolefsky
11 February 2012, 2209
30 minutes is wrong. It's 300A for 30 seconds, and probably only if the motor has good air flow.

4 AWG is recommended for Alltrax 450A controllers. Might go at least that big, if not 2 AWG like lugnut said. It'll still be plenty flexible and more efficient. The cost difference is pretty small.

coolguyndc
12 February 2012, 0734
Thanks guys. I was asking this because another site sells the motor without cables, so if 6 gauges wires weren't enouth, I would buy the motor kit there.

It's the first kit. http://www.evdrives.com/kits_conversion.html

Thanks again.

podolefsky
12 February 2012, 1009
I got my D&D kit from EV drives. Great people to work with.

coolguyndc
12 February 2012, 1152
I got my D&D kit from EV drives. Great people to work with.
Good to know, because I wasn't sure about them. They sell the same kit cheaper, and they ship to Canada for less. So it was hard to trust them. I will probably still buy the sprockets and dc-dc convertor from electric motorsports tho.

podolefsky
12 February 2012, 1159
Carl at EV drives was easy to work with, responded to email right away. (My bike with the series motor is on their of their webpage).


Which sprockets and DC-DC are you getting?

Front sprockets are cheaper from surpluscenter, e-bay, or mcmaster-carr.

Rear sprockets can be bought directly from Sprocket specialists for a lot less. My 52 tooth was about $50.

coolguyndc
12 February 2012, 1321
Carl at EV drives was easy to work with, responded to email right away. (My bike with the series motor is on their of their webpage).


Which sprockets and DC-DC are you getting?

Front sprockets are cheaper from surpluscenter, e-bay, or mcmaster-carr.

Rear sprockets can be bought directly from Sprocket specialists for a lot less. My 52 tooth was about $50.

I am going to get their sevcon 48 vold dc-dc convertor http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_dc-dc_sevcon_36-48v.php

My 12 volt system uses about 20 amps on 48 volts.

coolguyndc
14 February 2012, 1244
By experience, would teh Headway 40160 16ah batteries be enouth for my 48volt system? at city speed, I dont`t think it is going to be a problem, but at hyway speed, I will be closer to 7c, 100 amps.

Also, is ot easy to build a battery pack with thoses batteries? (rememberm I am a mechanical student)

frodus
14 February 2012, 1320
I wouldnt do a 16s1p on 48v. Go 2p. At 48v and highway speed i think you might find yourself hitting 100a a lot. And maybe more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

ZoomSmith
14 February 2012, 1453
In order for that 48V system to do highway speeds you are going sucking a lot of amps and will need at least 2P of the 40160's, maybe 3P. Personally, I'm running 2P at 75V and still wouldn't run it on the freeway.

Hook up 16S1P pack and throw a clamp meter on the cables and ride around to get a better feel for current draw.

coolguyndc
14 February 2012, 1924
Personally, I'm running 2P at 75V and still wouldn't run it on the freeway.

I check, and it wont be legal on the freeway anyway (only legal on 50 mph and less). would one be enough for city driving (30mph)

coolguyndc
14 February 2012, 1926
This is only tho find a more compact battery pack than the gbs batteries than I am planing to buy

coolguyndc
18 February 2012, 0906
Motor kit and dc-dc convertor bought. project is about to become more interesting. We are also trying to find financing at our university, for our batteries and our brackets.

coolguyndc
19 February 2012, 1356
Is their only #50 sprocket and 530 chain/ rear sprocket that fit without modifications? The ANSI size front sprocket is starting to give me a migraine.

podolefsky
19 February 2012, 1637
#50 is the only ANSI size that corresponds exactly to a standard motorcycle chain (530). #41 is pretty close to 420, and I think that combination has worked for people. #40 fits 425 chain, but I don't think you're going to find a rear sprocket in 425.

#50 can be turned down to fit 520, and #40 can be turned to fit 420. It's about a 15 minute job if you have access to a lathe.

Sprocket Specialists only has 530 and 520 for the GSX-R. They *might* be able to make you a 420, but you'd have to check with them. It would be nice if you could get 420 because it's lighter and would better match the motor you have. 530 will have more mass and friction.

There's some basic info on chain/sprocket sizes here:

http://www.gizmology.net/sprockets.htm

coolguyndc
19 February 2012, 1730
#50 can be turned down to fit 520, and #40 can be turned to fit 420. It's about a 15 minute job if you have access to a lathe.[/URL]

Unfortunately, even if my university have turning machine, I don't have access to them (I need to be in a student club to have access). I will probably have to go with 530 then, because the shops I know are overpriced. Thanks.

coolguyndc
19 February 2012, 1732
I am still goin to ask the shop how mush it would cost to remove 1/8 from a sprocket, just in case.

liveforphysics
19 February 2012, 1747
You can't talk to a machining teacher for 5 minutes to chuck that sprocket up and face it? I remember years ago at my college that there must have been 50 kids and a handful of prof's always eager and ready to find any excuse to show real-world machining examples to the group in the machining classes. They actually buy blank steel and aluminum bar-stock and use it to practice facing and thread cutting and tapers etc, because they don't have enough real-world jobs.

podolefsky
19 February 2012, 1750
Just an idea - I can get sprockets for about $12, shipping to Quebec is $13. That's $25 (US) plus a bit for my time and I'll just do it for you. PM me if you're interested.

podolefsky
19 February 2012, 1751
Yeah, LFP is right - just walk into engineering or physics and ask if someone will do it. I'll bet someone will do it for free.

coolguyndc
19 February 2012, 1814
You can't talk to a machining teacher for 5 minutes to chuck that sprocket up and face it? I remember years ago at my college that there must have been 50 kids and a handful of prof's always eager and ready to find any excuse to show real-world machining examples to the group in the machining classes. They actually buy blank steel and aluminum bar-stock and use it to practice facing and thread cutting and tapers etc, because they don't have enough real-world jobs.

Yeah, I could ask for someone to do it. If I where back in college, I would of done it myself. (university comes after college in Quebec, college being a step to prepare students for university)

coolguyndc
19 February 2012, 1920
My partner and I decided to wait on the sprocket purchase, to make sure what size of sprocket we need. The bike may get upgraded in a year or two, so we might buy bigger sprockets because of that. And larger sprockets look better.

helco
19 February 2012, 2005
just a little foot note from a machinist , when you get the sprocket machined take half from each side or you will move the center of the sprocket ,not much , granted , or you can used the bias to move the drive sprocket , lots of little things like that adding up can become a head ache !!

podolefsky
19 February 2012, 2034
That would be true on a regular motorcycle sprocket, but on the 7/8" drive sprockets, it doesn't matter if you move the sprocket center. There's lots of room on the motor shaft to move it back and forth and get it lined up. I just face mine on one side, works fine.

coolguyndc
20 February 2012, 1050
I just noticed that the zero X`s front sprocket is for 420 chain size, and 7/8 shaft diameter, a perfect fit for my bike.

podolefsky
20 February 2012, 1057
Nice. I wish they sold their belt drive parts separately.

coolguyndc
20 February 2012, 1600
Nice. I wish they sold their belt drive parts separately.

Considering that they sell only 2010 parts, I think they will sell their belt parts when they will upgrade their bikes.

coolguyndc
20 February 2012, 1953
Just got a notice from my university telling me witch teacher will help me do my final studies project. I emailed him telling him that I would like my motorcycle project to be link to my final school project. I hope he will let me do it.

The email was a surprise for me, because I didn't think I would have to think about my final project until the end of the year.

His specialty is transmissions, so I may end up making, or at least designing a transmission for the bike (their is a little bit of space next to the motor, inline with the shaft).

coolguyndc
21 February 2012, 1542
It's official, I will design a transmission for the bike (I will build the bike without it, tho). I was happy enouth that my project was accepted. I will start next January, when I will start the work on my final university project.

yankee1919
21 February 2012, 1548
Hello Coolguydc,

Currently do you have any data on the electric motorcycle with out transmission?

Tony

coolguyndc
21 February 2012, 1750
No.... not now. The motor and controler will arrive at my doorstep on the 29th. I know that my system is limited, so a transmission could help the performance of the bike. it would probably lower the range, at a constent speed, but it shouls inprove it on accelerations ( cloud have 6:1 ratio first gear and 4:1 second gear).The advantages could be interesting for city driving.

coolguyndc
27 February 2012, 1042
My stuff is in brokerage from ups........... expecting 300$ of fees fos 920$ of stuff............ It sucks to be in Canada.

coolguyndc
01 March 2012, 1058
27872788

Here is the new battery setup in my frame. it takes less place, and the batteries will be in a isolated casing (new electric vehicule norm from the saaq).

Skeezmour
01 March 2012, 1447
27872788

Here is the new battery setup in my frame. it takes less place, and the batteries will be in a isolated casing (new electric vehicule norm from the saaq).

I like that setup. Good stuff.

coolguyndc
02 March 2012, 1050
Are the GBS batteries Waterproof?

podolefsky
02 March 2012, 1111
they're not. they have caps, but there are still holes where the bus bars and cables go through.

I made lexan covers for mine that provide a better seal than the original caps. Not water *proof*, but seems to keep rain out pretty well. I've ridden through the rain and haven't had any problems.

coolguyndc
03 March 2012, 1302
I just found out that my motor didn't come with a key......... where can I get one?

kd8cgo
03 March 2012, 1346
Most decent hardware stores carry key stock, I think they even have it in the bins at the box stores like Home Depot and Lowes here in the states. If you can't source locally, places like McMaster Carr or similar usually have all the mechanical bits you could dream of.

ZoomSmith
03 March 2012, 1536
Farm/Ranch supply stores too. Keys are used for all kinds of motors and gears.

coolguyndc
04 March 2012, 1840
official version 3.0 of the battery mounts
2815
It lowers and it moves back the center of gravity.

the battery mount will be closed off, offering waterproofing, witch is required by my government.

coolguyndc
06 March 2012, 1100
I`m designing my electrical syste,, and I was wondering If I could feed the main contactor with the kill switch, after the dc-dc convertor, So I would`t need a secpndary 12v relay to close the contactor.

Nuts & Volts
06 March 2012, 1311
I`m designing my electrical syste,, and I was wondering If I could feed the main contactor with the kill switch, after the dc-dc convertor, So I would`t need a secpndary 12v relay to close the contactor.

Basically you want to interrupt (open) the contactor control with the kill switch? Yes this is what a lot of people do, the kill switch originally operates on 12V and actually probably performs the same function by opening up a small relay on an ICE engine, thou I am guessing here. I would also switch the 12V side of the contactor control line and not the GND side.

coolguyndc
07 March 2012, 1013
Basically you want to interrupt (open) the contactor control with the kill switch? Yes this is what a lot of people do, the kill switch originally operates on 12V and actually probably performs the same function by opening up a small relay on an ICE engine, thou I am guessing here. I would also switch the 12V side of the contactor control line and not the GND side.

I want to open and close the contactor with the kill switch.

coolguyndc
10 March 2012, 0954
If I base my electrical design on the altrax wiring guide, should I be ok?
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/pdf-downloads/Doc100-081-A_DWG-AXE-PermMag-no-Rev-wire-dia.pdf
I would replace the foot switch with the kill switch.

Also, is the key switch ableto handle 48V, so that I could use it to power the DC-DC convertor?

Thanks

podolefsky
10 March 2012, 1018
Yes, that wiring guide will work just fine.

Using your stock kill and key switches will be a problem because they're only made to handle 12V. 48V might work for a while. They'd probably be OK just to turn on the controller, but not for the contactor coil or DC-DC.

Look around at what other people have done to get around this problem.

coolguyndc
10 March 2012, 1305
Yes, that wiring guide will work just fine.

Using your stock kill and key switches will be a problem because they're only made to handle 12V. 48V might work for a while. They'd probably be OK just to turn on the controller, but not for the contactor coil or DC-DC.

Look around at what other people have done to get around this problem.

I looked at your latest wiring diagram (I think http://www.colorado.edu/physics/EducationIssues/podolefsky/EV_project/electric_motorcycle_wiring_AC_8.pdf) and I have a question. Becaure your DC-DC convertor is connected directly to your batteries positive and negative port, doen't it implement that even if your key switch is off that a small quantity of energy is still wasted, that their will always be electricity being converted?

If not, I may base my design on yours, again....

Anyways, thanks again

frodus
10 March 2012, 1919
~6mA into the gate in pin.

podolefsky
11 March 2012, 1105
Yes, it's always connected unless I switch the bike to "park", then like Travis said ~6mA. Even when it's on, if there's no load it pulls less than 20mA, so I don't usually bother turning it off.

frodus
11 March 2012, 1314
yeah, no load is about 2W, so hardly anything at all if you decide to just switch the loads off.

Been using these since even before my EV. I tested them at GE Energy when I was a co-op. They're pretty solid! Just use the debounce cap and maybe some input filtering caps if your controller is noisy (look at the design guide).

coolguyndc
04 May 2012, 1425
We started to make are bench to test our wiring for the bike!!!!!!

The bench will only serve us to figure out if we understand the wiring of the bike, and a proof of concept for the financing group we are contacting.

We are using 18 gauge wire for the contactor and 12v part of the bench. are 4 gauge cables are not instaled, because they are charging the 4 car batteries we have.I just found out that the dc-dc convertor connectors are made for 10-12 gauge wires.....

Anyways, tell me what you think.

Here are some pictures:

3122
3123
3124
3125
3126

coolguyndc
12 May 2012, 1106
Here is our wiring for our bench.
3149
It will be tested Tuesday, a Year after the beginning of the project.

frodus
12 May 2012, 1211
It took me a minute to figure out what that blue box was. It's a relay. Easier to ID if you put the coil and contacts in the drawing, but that's just details. Same thing for the contactor. Diode gets the coils, precharge gets the contacts. Everything looks good. I'd fuse the output of the DC-DC converter.

What are the switches labeled?

coolguyndc
13 May 2012, 1913
The switches are standard switches, that you can see in the pictures above. the drawing was a reference for us to check our wiring faster. We will do a complete circuit drawing later.

Thanks for the feedback, frodus.

frodus
13 May 2012, 1918
I mean. What are the switches going to be marked i.e. kill switch or enable etc.

Are they rated for pack voltage?

coolguyndc
13 May 2012, 2101
They are enable switches. about 200 Watts max in them (5 amps at 48, 20 at 12. it can not exceed 5 amps because of the fuses.

coolguyndc
14 May 2012, 1746
Our bench test works!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n4SAffOCgE

podolefsky
14 May 2012, 2218
nice! the sweetest sound on earth - a motor coming to life :D

coolguyndc
15 May 2012, 0352
Yes it is. the only thing that bothers me is that only 24V goes to the motor at full throttle. the pack is 50.6 V. It might be because those batteries are used car batteries.

podolefsky
15 May 2012, 0810
Have you checked the controller settings? Might be set to 24V max.

Since you have no load, it should hardly take any current at all. Even old lead batteries won't sag that much (as long as they're charged).

coolguyndc
15 May 2012, 0848
the problem is that I dont have the cable to program it....... I will get it soon, and then I will check.

podolefsky
15 May 2012, 0954
actually...how are you measuring motor side voltage?

coolguyndc
15 May 2012, 1037
With a "multimetre". I also noticed that their is a wierd buzzing noize comming from the motor and that it doen't want to rev fast. If I tunr the trottle fast, the buzzing noise comes and the speed stais at about 10%.

podolefsky
15 May 2012, 1103
hmmm... it seemed to be revving pretty fast in the video, but hard to tell without actually measuring the RPM. Did the buzzing and 10% speed problem start after you made the video?

A regular multimeter might have trouble measuring the voltage. It's a PWM signal, not straight DC (it's basically a square wave). So I'm not sure a DC multimeter will give an accurate reading.

If you have an AC setting on the multimeter that will measure the RMS voltage, which should be accurate.

If the motor isn't able to turn fast enough, then the controller will have to reduce voltage in order to limit motor current. But that would indicate something is wrong with the motor - maybe the brushes aren't seated well?

coolguyndc
15 May 2012, 1118
Here is the buzzing sound.


http://youtu.be/i-X0SZQQiQQ

(It might be the plywood that makes the sound, I will have to check. The rev problem is stilla mystery for me.

podolefsky
15 May 2012, 1249
It definitely sounds like it is resonating with the plywood. I'd first take the plywood out (or put something heavy on it to damp the sound). Then listen again so you can hear what the motor is actually doing.

What I see in the video (tell me if this is right):

- if you ease into the throttle, the motor revs correctly and only knocks when you get to full throttle
- if you go quickly to full throttle, the motor does not rev correctly and knocking starts right away

When you go to full throttle, the controller doesn't necessarily apply full pack voltage. It will lower the voltage in order to limit motor current. I've read that the 0909 is very low impedance, so the controller might really have to work hard to keep the current within the set limit. The thing is, this doesn't happen immediately, so the rotor might be getting ahead in timing while the controller is turning down the voltage. This might be made worse by the fact you don't have any load on the motor. If the rotor gets ahead, then BEMF is greater than applied voltage and the motor is now acting as a generator. Could be that the Alltrax doesn't know how to deal with this and just goes nuts.

That's just a guess. My recommendations would be to get rid of the plywood, and try to apply a load to the motor. The best thing would be putting the chain on to the back wheel. That should be enough load to keep the timing in check.

coolguyndc
15 May 2012, 1310
You got it right. I will try it with a load, but it may take time. Our university declined our financing demands, and we have no more money to put into the bike. I won't risk having no money to finish the bike (I don't work while at school, and I have 12 month straight of school left).

I will probably ask one of my teachers to help me test the motor in school to see what the problem is, and to analyze the motor itself.

I am still happy to have made a functioning bench test, and if I cannot have financing, the bike will be continued next year.

Thanks everybody for the help.

coolguyndc
23 May 2012, 1843
Can't stop thinking about the bike. By curiosity, does anyone know how many chain links I could need for a 13tooth to 52 tooth gearing with 530 chain on the GSXR?

frodus
23 May 2012, 2152
get ten feet of ansi #50 chain (same as 530 chain) for cheap, then figure it out, then get roller chain later.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=1-1163-50&catname=powerTrans

also get a front sprocket:
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=powerTrans&keyword=PH50
(not sure your shaft diameter or how many teeth you want. Don't go below 11 tooth if you can help it)

gijoe460
23 May 2012, 2255
I am running a 520 DID chain, with 13 sprocket front, and 53 sprocket back, with a 3 inch swingarm extension in there....I bought a 140 link, and it looks like i will be trimming 7 to 8 links....if that helps you at all..

coolguyndc
24 May 2012, 0514
I was wondering what chain length to buy, so that I would't have to get second chain.

Thank's

Allen_okc
24 May 2012, 0806
my thought is that the motor isnt broke in yet - did you run the motor for 12 hours with a twelve volt battery yet???

If not then, break the motor in for at least 12 hours or more then try to run it again, plus the plywood will enhance the sound...

Allen_okc
24 May 2012, 0819
I was wondering what chain length to buy, so that I would't have to get second chain.

Thank's

just get the ten foot of chain which is the standard ordering length, and get a chain breaker for the size your using or use a socket under the pin of a link and a flat punch that is the smaller than the pin and hammer it out, reverse the process to punch the pin back in - NOTE, do not allow the pin to come completely out, making it easier to re assemble...
Frodus and i both deal with the surplus center, good bunch of fellows there...

coolguyndc
24 May 2012, 1254
get ten feet of ansi #50 chain (same as 530 chain) for cheap, then figure it out, then get roller chain later.)

Why can't I just keep the #50 chain?

frodus
24 May 2012, 1346
because it's machine chain and won't really last as long as other chains made for motorsports.... I mean, you can use it til it wears out, but I'd invest in something that is a bit better than $20 machine chain.

coolguyndc
24 May 2012, 1430
So it is perfect to do tests, but not for long uses. Thanks.

frodus
24 May 2012, 1549
yeah, my reasoning is that i don't know what ratio I'll use, and that effects the chain length. I figured $20 now for some chain and maybe a few master links, and I can experiment for a while until it's right. Then spend the money on a nicer chain.

coolguyndc
24 May 2012, 1658
I agree with you. That why I am going the aftermarket way for now, then custom 420 sprockets.

frodus
24 May 2012, 1743
can you FIND a 420 front sprocket?

moon
24 May 2012, 1810
It's super easy to make 420 front sprockets from cheap #40 sprockets. It took me about 20 minutes and I'm a noob on the lathe.

Also, I'm very happy with the amount of sound level of the 420 renthal r1 chain.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

coolguyndc
25 May 2012, 1207
Zero used to sell their 420 front sprocket, but they don't anymore. For testing, I don't mind running 530. I will make some 420 sprockets for the finish bike, tho.

podolefsky
30 May 2012, 0910
I could tell you exactly how many links for 13-52 on a ´93 GSXR, but I don have my laptop with me (still in Costa Rica :) ) It´ll depend on exactly where your motor shaft ended up anyway.

You can calculate it though. The sprockets will need about 13+52 / 2 = about 33 links. Then the rest is

(distance from the motor shaft to rear axle) *2 / 0.625"

(*2 because there are two lenth of chain front to back, 0.625 is the length of a single 530 link). Add those together plus a few more because of the chain angle between sprockets (and just to be safe).

I use a clip link so I don´t need a rivet tool, and I can take the chain apart easily. They´re plenty strong for what you´re doing. To get the original pin out, I grind down one side then use a bolt and a socket on either side, pressed together in a vise.

A #41 sprocket is really close to 420. Probably close enough to get by until you can get a proper 420 front made (by turning down a #40 like Moon said).

coolguyndc
14 July 2012, 0643
It's been a while since I posted about the project. I am in the process of finishing university, so I don't as mush time to spend on the bike.

I was wondering if a BMS is absolutely required to run an electric bike safely, or is it just to make the batteries last longer. I am asking this because the bms boards aren't sealed on the GBS batteries, and the Quebec government request them to be completely sealed from water and sticks.... Even if I say I won't run the bike in water, it doesn't matter.

Hugues
14 July 2012, 0742
Hi

Not absolutely required , but strongly recommended :-)

Without a BMS you at least need to monitor your cell voltage during discharge and charge, to avoid having any of them going too low or too high. You can do this with cell meters , but can you really keep an eye on so many cells while driving and especially accelerating ? A battery is quite expensive and can become dangerous, so I would use a BMS.

You're in Quebec ? I was born there !
If you need a waterproof BMS, Travis just pointed me to the Orion BMS, quite cool, have a look, it's water resistant.

coolguyndc
14 July 2012, 0746
Hi

Not absolutely required , but strongly recommended :-)

Without a BMS you at least need to monitor your cell voltage during discharge and charge, to avoid having any of them going too low or too high. You can do this with cell meters , but can you really keep an eye on so many cells while driving and especially accelerating ? A battery is quite expensive and can become dangerous, so I would use a BMS.

You're in Quebec ? I was born there !
If you need a waterproof BMS, Travis just pointed me to the Orion BMS, quite cool, have a look, it's water resistant.

Good to know. I never realy checked for diffrent bms board, thinking that the original boards would be better.

Thanks.

coolguyndc
14 July 2012, 0756
The other thing I might do is to use some clear plasti dip spray to protect the boards. We used it at work, and it seemed to work. the only thing negative is that the boards won't be interchangeable, so if one fails, I will need to change all of them (the plasti dip would need to cover the wires connector).

BTW, I might use simple steels angles to hold the batteries, but use roll bars to protect the batteries if I drop the bike on it's side. The SAAQ is almost killing my project with heir requirements. I will see next summer how hard it will be to respect their requirements.

frodus
15 July 2012, 2121
The Orion I worked with was not water resistant, where'd you find that out?

The connectors are not sealed connectors. On the website it says EMI resistant, but I can't find anything about water-resistant. Would be good if it is!

coolguyndc
23 December 2012, 0819
I am starting to work on the bike again. I was facing a problem because of the waterproofing, but I just notices that the company I was expecting to buy the batteries from are finishing waterproof BMS boards. This means I can now have a open casing. The #2 cable I had did not bend easily, so a open casing will help alot. Wow, I feel lucky.

That said, I was wondering if the GBS batteries them self are at least splash proof.

My bachelors degree final project is the desing and stress analysis of the battery support. Their will be more frequent updates now that I have to work on it. After that project, I will have my engineering job, and the motorcycle project will probably get completed during the summer, or by the end of 2013.

Hugues
23 December 2012, 1033
..
That said, I was wondering if the GBS batteries them self are at least splash proof.
...

In their standard configuration, with the normal cover, i would rate them IP32 (http://www.mpl.ch/info/IPratings.html) at best. But with a little work, i guess one could upgrade them to IP 54, kind of splash proof.

coolguyndc
23 December 2012, 1935
I was thinking a rubber spray on the boards could do the trick. no more than 1 mm thick.