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View Full Version : Vetter Challenge (and thus N&V) Hits NYT!



teddillard
29 July 2011, 0925
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/independent-motorcycle-designers-achieve-over-150-m-p-g-at-ohio-challenge/

This one are PURTY:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/26/automobiles/wheels-vetter2/wheels-vetter2-blog480.jpg

Nuts & Volts
29 July 2011, 1358
Too bad no mention of the electrics in the article, ill make sure to change that next year!

eracebike.com
31 July 2011, 0045
Yes Ted.... I built that bodywork... as well as the winning bodywork on the Ohio and California challenges....
Kent

DaveAK
31 July 2011, 0858
I gotta say I kinda like that one. It's only spoiled by the shirt in the background. Seriously, whoever that is, what were they thinking?

ZoomSmith
31 July 2011, 0954
LOL. I was thinking the same thing Dave.

Either that dude is hopelessly single, or his girlfriend recently got a role in a traveling production of CATS.

jpanichella
31 July 2011, 1258
Maybe he's a Bengals fan? If that's the case, I feel really sorry for him.

Warren
31 July 2011, 1856
Yes. The Hayes diesel streamliner was absolutely beautiful. Too bad we won't see anything this aero in the TTXGP. It boggles my mind to think that electric racing has turned into just another horsepower race. I see two possible rule changes that could make it more innovative. The fact that the electrics only race for 20 miles highlights a real shortcoming with batteries, and tells gas bikers that they are not really practical. I think making the races 50 miles long would force streamlining, and prove that electrics can really go useful distances. No horsepower limits, no battery capacity limits. However, the race would begin with the racers running across the track to pick up their bikes, and take off. That is, the bikes would be lying on their sides, with one handhold located 24" inches above the ground when they are upright. No levers, ramps, jacks or other tricks allowed. Just jerk the bike up onto its wheels and go. :-)

Nuts & Volts
31 July 2011, 1932
I like the pick up idea kinda, but i dont think the distance idea can work. Even if the race is 50 miles the fans/rest of the world would want the bikes to do faster laps at that distance. Streamlining can not increase efficiency by 150% (20 to 50 miles) in order to keep the same lap times.

I am all for going fast on limited/less HP, but the battery tech is not there yet to make a 50 mile practical. So in order to innovate and progress the sport the bikes get bigger motors and better packaging year after year. In racing less people are concerned about distance. In really life distance does become any issue. Let the TTXGP have their HP and let the Vetter/commercial guys work with the streamlining.

In all honesty I dont think a streamlined (big nose, big tail) bike will ever sell, partly because I wouldnt buy a streamlined bike unless it cost less. Please prove me wrong. I think smaller fairings can be used to increase aero without the resulting change in overall styling/design. I may be full of ****, but i love the looks of bikes like the britten v1000 and such. My 2 cents

Warren
01 August 2011, 0753
Yes. Race fans don't care about efficiency...racing is of no benefit for vehicle progress.

It is interesting to note that the winning bike in the economy challenge was not the most aerodynamic bike. From Kraig Schultz's site:

#1 Max Perethian on his NX250 consumed $2.47... ($.0237 per mile) 152.88 mpg

#2 Fred Hayes HDT Diesel consumed $2.68 in bio Diesel... ($.0257 per mile) 143.53 mpg

#3 Jack McCornack Diesel car consumed $3.14 Diesel... ($.0301 per mile) 127.38 mpg

#4 Dale on Hayes HDT Diesel #2 consumed $3.23 in bio Diesel... ($.031 per mile) 119.22 mpg

#5 Alan Smith, 250 Ninja consumed $3.27 in pump gas... ($.0314 per mile) 115.9 mpg

Hayes entered two bikes, a super aero version, and a minimally aero bike, like you prefer. The super aero version was 20% more efficient than the minimally aero version...a huge improvement. But most interesting was that the super aero bike lost to a minimally aero bike...why? Because the winning bike had a 250 cc motor, which was 28% less wasteful than the 600+ cc motor in the super aero bike. A horsepower race is not going to get the world where it needs to be...even if that horsepower is produced with electric motors, and batteries!

DaveAK
01 August 2011, 0830
There are a lot of different races covering speed, distance and endurance. You only have to take your pick.

lugnut
01 August 2011, 0831
...racing is of no benefit for vehicle progress.....

It is odd that so many vehicle manufacturers put so much time, effort and money into race programs.

Richard230
01 August 2011, 1536
It is odd that so many vehicle manufacturers put so much time, effort and money into race programs.

And in the case of Brammo, don't sell a high-performance electric motorcycle based upon their racer to the public.

And speaking of the Empulse, I wonder why Ultimate Motorcycling decided that they needed to post this article today? Talk about a year too late.

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2011-brammo-empulse-quick-look

Warren
01 August 2011, 1945
"It is odd that so many vehicle manufacturers put so much time, effort and money into race programs."

It helps sell the "freedom machine" fantasy. They aren't really stuck in traffic in a ridiculous money pit, they are rebels, just about to turn off the interstate, and head for parts unkown.

Nuts & Volts
04 August 2011, 1334
Full report from Mr. Vetter
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2011-%20Fuel%20Economy%20Contests/2011-Mid-Ohio-results.html

It seems he is not really convinced that electrics are the future. As I said before, next year I will have to change his perspective.

Skeezmour
04 August 2011, 1349
I may need to help you with that N & V.

DaveAK
04 August 2011, 1402
I don't get the whole electrics aren't the future thing. Sure, in the near term there are many improvements to be made in fuel economy for ICE vehicles, but a Nissan Leaf is going to get you to the grocery store every day without fuel, both now and when peak oil actually peaks. I'm pretty sure electric vehicles are the future, I'm just not sure whether that's this decade, next decade or 100 years from now.

Nuts & Volts
04 August 2011, 1402
I may need to help you with that N & V.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. It will be my project this winter to upgrade my ride (chassis and aero first). Will be sure to start a new thread with all my ideas when the time comes! For now its data and just per enjoyment of the electric experience

Also, the report say that I have a ninja. If that were correct that would be the fattest ninja I have ever seen :) It is a Suzuki Katana conversion


I don't get the whole electrics aren't the future thing. Sure, in the near term there are many improvements to be made in fuel economy for ICE vehicles, but a Nissan Leaf is going to get you to the grocery store every day without fuel, both now and when peak oil actually peaks. I'm pretty sure electric vehicles are the future, I'm just not sure whether that's this decade, next decade or 100 years from now.


We have some email threads and I think it has to do with coal being dirtier or somehow worse than petrol. I dont care to iron out all the details of the argument, but as I have discussed with the other electric riders at the event, electric wins because it has potential to one day be carbon free (solar, more efficient, etc.). Electrics have more potential than ICE. Can one make gas for cheaper than they buy it for right now??? I know I can make electricity for cheaper than I buy it for... Instead of trying to convince people with calculations and justifications I would rather just win this competition next year :D

Brammofan
05 August 2011, 0853
I'm pretty sure electric vehicles are the future, I believe that children are our future.

Nuts & Volts
05 August 2011, 0914
I believe that children are our future.

Children on electric motorcycles you mean :)

DaveAK
05 August 2011, 0957
I believe that children are our future.
Now this is exactly the response I would have given if I had been replying. :D

Brammofan
06 August 2011, 0518
Really, all you have to do is teach them well and let them lead the way. Amiright? :)