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View Full Version : Golden Motor 10kw water cooled... any info?



teddillard
24 August 2011, 0356
Anybody knowz anything about this?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/321631_2405574058260_1218396040_32997804_4242676_n .jpg

We talked a little about it on this thread:
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?461-Golden-motor

I stopped by Gestalt's shop last night and he showed me his motor and offered to let me mess with it. It really looks like a nice package.

DaveAK
24 August 2011, 0813
I stopped by Gestalt's shop last night and he showed me his and offered to let me mess with it. It really looks like a nice package.
Wow! You guys must be on real friendly terms!

:D

ZoomSmith
24 August 2011, 0838
Pretty sure Ted was referring to Mr. Gestalt's MOTOR. (If not, may have posted to the wrong forum) :D

teddillard
24 August 2011, 0933
Dave's just jealous. :O

(...nice edit D.)

This just in from my friendly local dealer:

"I can no longer purchase the Golden Motor products from their USA distributor. You can try to source this directly from them but you should be cautious, if you have a warranty issue you would have to ship it back to China. "

frodus
24 August 2011, 1057
typical.....

teddillard
24 August 2011, 1105
typical.....

Of what? Apparently Golden has shut down US distribution for all of their products. Not sure what you're referring to.

...oh. Typical of DAVE. I get it now... :D

harlan
24 August 2011, 1117
I have looked into becoming a Golden Motor Distributor. If there is enough interest, I'd be willing to set this up but will need sufficient pre-orders to justify this.

frodus
24 August 2011, 1132
maybe typical is a bad word.....

I just meant be cautious because of having to ship.... it's a PITA and no way to hold them to any warranty.....

DaveAK
24 August 2011, 1137
...oh. Typical of DAVE. I get it now... :D
Well yeah, I'm nothing if not predictable. :D But of course you knew I was going to say that. :)

teddillard
24 August 2011, 1159
I have looked into becoming a Golden Motor Distributor.

I may be wrong, but I'm not at all sure you still can. This guy was a dealer, said that the US distribution was closed within the last month or so. US warranties will be honored, I guess, but he was none-to happy about the situation.

Fab man
24 August 2011, 1619
For what it's worth, the Canadian distributors web site is still up.

__Tango
24 August 2011, 1728
Although this talk about the distributors is interesting, does anyone have any experience or knowledge about the motor itself (other than warranty caveats)?

teddillard
25 August 2011, 0402
Thanks Alex, though I just don't think anyone's used the things. LiveForPhysics apparently on ES has put something together with one of the smaller non-liquid cooled motors, but I can't find anything about running this one, liquid cooled, and what it can stand. If I had the $$ I'd pick one up just to see what it could take before it burned up... :D

I suspect it could take quite a lot... rated at 144V, with the cooling, it seems like it would be pretty capable.

Oh well, just have to wait until that lottery check comes in. :(

frodus
25 August 2011, 0845
what controller do they pair with it?

__Tango
25 August 2011, 0852
i think they have their own: http://www.goldenmotor.com/HPM300A500A.jpg

teddillard
25 August 2011, 0930
yep, rc and I were talking about trying gestalt's PACKAGE with a Kelly, too.

teet
17 November 2011, 0712
And? Any results with the Golden Motor engine (and their controller)?

StanSimmons
17 November 2011, 1018
For what it's worth, the Canadian distributors web site is still up.When I emailed them, the Canadian distributor replied that they don't sell the 10k motor.

podolefsky
17 November 2011, 1029
I don't know much about these motors, but looks like you can order from Petes electric bikes (http://store.petesebikes.com/Golden+Motor+5KW+BLDC+Motor.html). They don't have the controller on their website, but there is a Pete's here in Boulder. They have pretty tight ties with Golden, last time I checked.

UPS shipping is about $15, store pick up is free. Not sure about lead time though.

If you want, I can talk to them, see what they know.

StanSimmons
17 November 2011, 1400
Noah,

Please do, and see what info they have on both the motor and what controller is suggested. GM China apparently doesn't recommend their own controller for this motor. I am particularly interested in the 10k water cooled version, HPM-10KW-120V.

See the quote from the email I got last night from GM China. (I guess they finally got around to responding to my 3 month old email.)

The attached is our 10kw motor data and drawing. But for the controller, you can find a controller from other controller supply.

It is a pity that our distributors in USA have no our this motor in stock now.
The headers in the attachment were in Chinese... not so useful for me. ;)

liveforphysics
17 November 2011, 1832
The golden controller is a basket-case.

The motor is OK for a peppy bicycle. Ended up having a lot of temp problems with the 5kw version. Extremely poor thermal path from the windings to the case.

The ultra-high-speed firmware 144v 400amp Kelly was a decent match for it, but it would occasionally and unpredictably enter regen when you rolled on throttle coming off turns...

Ended up swapping to the 10kw version with a size6 Sevcon (the biggest of the 4th generation).

It ran it very well until the hall sensors cooked and became erratic at a really low outside motor temperature (the controller was logging motor temps with a bonded thermisitor). This cost me a race. :-(

Fun on a 106v 1200amp twin Agni bike that I lapped SLOWER ON than my bicycle. :-)
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg854/scaled.php?server=854&filename=g121.jpg&res=medium

Bicycle on the dyno with the baby 5kw version and 400amp kelly on a 116v pack. It was OK, kelly was glitchy as usual, motor would get flesh burning hot way too fast if you rode it like you meant it.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg803/scaled.php?server=803&filename=ebikeondyno.jpg&res=medium

Racing on Laguna Seca with the baby 5kw version. Owned every DIY e-moto with ease. :-)
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg38/scaled.php?server=38&filename=g114.jpg&res=medium


Then I went to the bigger 10kw version and 650amp 116v Sevcon, which definitely worked a lot better, and made for a very very peppy e-bicycle.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lGVstHhyW1M/Tp5nk0wTJlI/AAAAAAAAAec/B81iJZGWIno/s640/IMG_20111018_213406.jpg

Worked well enough to rip the tire off the rim consistently... which was very annoying. lol A friend is lacing up a wider rim for me as I type this, so hopefully it will hold a tire better. I would wager it's faster 0-60mph than any DIY e-motorcycle that has under $40,000 into it, rips hard past 100mph, and happily zips along bicycle paths and through parks and needs no registration or plates or insurance etc. :-) It's a reasonable man's bicycle. :-)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r_VSAzg2A6g/Tp93KkdPUqI/AAAAAAAAAek/GveJOSGddb0/s640/IMG_20111019_175939.jpg

Nuts & Volts
17 November 2011, 1947
^^^best post ever haha.

So basically yes if you have balls and a sick ass dyno the golden motor can rip you a new one :)

seanece
17 November 2011, 1954
No video of it on the dyno or track...... then it didn't happen in my mind.


(hehe, take the bait...... I just want to see more videos of the bike in action)

Fab man
17 November 2011, 2318
"and happily zips along bicycle paths and through parks and needs no registration or plates or insurance etc."



So, how do you get around the state and fed. laws for electric powered bicycles( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws) ?

StanSimmons
18 November 2011, 0031
The golden controller is a basket-case.

The motor is OK for a peppy bicycle. Ended up having a lot of temp problems with the 5kw version. Extremely poor thermal path from the windings to the case.

The ultra-high-speed firmware 144v 400amp Kelly was a decent match for it, but it would occasionally and unpredictably enter regen when you rolled on throttle coming off turns...

Ended up swapping to the 10kw version with a size6 Sevcon (the biggest of the 4th generation).

It ran it very well until the hall sensors cooked and became erratic at a really low outside motor temperature (the controller was logging motor temps with a bonded thermisitor). This cost me a race. :-(
Thanks for the info on this motor/controller combo. I think I can safely cross it off of my list. The weight, price and water cooling option made it a very attractive possibility, but I'll spend a little more, and put up with the extra weight, for something more reliable for a daily driver.

teddillard
18 November 2011, 0444
We WILL be seeing you in May, correct? I made a special class (http://electropalooza.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/racesclasses/) for this thing. :D

larryrose11
18 November 2011, 0539
liveforphysics
Ive seen some crazy sh*t on this site, but you totally blew past that, and have redefined THAT benchmark. We area all indebted to for this gracious act.

podolefsky
18 November 2011, 1037
Info received back from my contact at Pete's. He says Golden motor has gone out of business in the U.S.

teet
18 November 2011, 1043
Ha ha! A really nice way of answering questions about the habits of a motor indeed.

teet
18 November 2011, 1044
Thanks Liveforfysics and Noah.

teddillard
18 November 2011, 1111
Info received back from my contact at Pete's. He says Golden motor has gone out of business in the U.S.

Right, that's what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. By that I think you mean, they've stopped distributing to the US. They're still in business.

podolefsky
18 November 2011, 1115
Right, that's what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. By that I think you mean, they've stopped distributing to the US. They're still in business.

Right - I'm just quoting what the guy from Pete's said. He told me someone in Arizona might be trying to become a distributor. But also said Pete's won't sell their products, to many quality issues with batteries and motors.

liveforphysics
18 November 2011, 1423
We WILL be seeing you in May, correct? I made a special class (http://electropalooza.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/racesclasses/) for this thing. :D





I will be there if its happening near CA, and you will allow my bicycle to run with the fastest motorcycle group.

teddillard
18 November 2011, 1439
I will be there if its happening near CA, and you will allow my bicycle to run with the fastest motorcycle group.

Sorry dude. MD, not too near CA. But you can run that bitch with whatever you want to, I guarandamntee it. :D Though I DO suspect dice will give you a run for your money... :O

Warren
18 November 2011, 1450
Luke,

"A friend is lacing up a wider rim for me as I type this, so hopefully it will hold a tire better."

Glad to hear it. From the master, the late Sheldon Brown:

"If you use a very wide tire on a narrow rim, you risk sidewall or rim failure. This combination causes very sloppy handling at low speeds. Unfortunately, current mountain-bike fashion pushes the edge of this. In the interest of weight saving, most current mountain bikes have excessively narrow rims. Such narrow rims work very poorly with wide tires, unless the tires are overinflated...but that defeats the purpose of wide tires, and puts undue stress on the rim sidewalls."

Warren

liveforphysics
18 November 2011, 1459
Yep, I agree. I almost always agree with Sheldon on things about 99.9% of the time, because he is right about 99.9% of the time. :-)

The new rim is 45mm wide, the old rim was 28mm wide, so the tire should hopefully be less prone to rolling off.

teddillard
18 November 2011, 1756
... the late Sheldon Brown...
Ah yes... Mr. Sheldon Brown. He lived about 10 miles away from me, in Newtonville, MA. Well known in the photo community too. Passed away when? Around 2008?

__Tango
18 November 2011, 1820
Really? Didn't realize he passed away. I read a lot of his stuff when i was teaching myself how to build bicycle wheels and whatnot.

dice23
18 November 2011, 2014
that thing is cool for what it is...lmao! i've got a razor and a 6 year old GIRL that might just whoop the crap out of it though! my two year old ran over the six year old and knocked the seven year old into the nine year old...she cried...sissy. sooo...my girls are tougher than that west coast crap...lmao! my go-kart is gonna be there now just because! i might just bring my leather thong to beat that thing if he shows up? we gotta figure out how to make a drinking game out of at the end? shots? helmets/leather will be needed i think? lmao...this is gonna be fun!

teddillard
19 November 2011, 0423
Really? Didn't realize he passed away. I read a lot of his stuff when i was teaching myself how to build bicycle wheels and whatnot.

Yeah, a little about him here: http://sheldonbrown.com/home.html
(It mentions his work at SK Grimes Camera Repair- long the pro-shop in the Northeast for repairs, but also modifications... They eventually merged with the shop I worked for, EP Levine, and Sheldon was good friends with my boss, Steve Brettler.)

Crap. He had MS: http://sheldonbrown.org/journal/health.html

"In August 2007, Brown was diagnosed with primary progressive multiple sclerosis. Brown died on February 4, 2008 after a heart attack."

Memorial donations, here: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sheldonmemorial.html

dammit. :(

The man was the Master of Space and Time. :cool:

(100% of the time. ;) )

teddillard
19 November 2011, 0509
So, everything else aside... liveforphysics, back to the OP, I'm assuming you are running this in "air-cooled" mode, since I don't see pipes and pumps on the bike (or room for them, ftm). Do you think that would help, of is the construction of the motor just bound to overheat ("Extremely poor thermal path from the windings to the case."- is that just the 5kw ver.-)?

I assume the top speed and acceleration are calculated or from the dyno, since you haven't been able to keep a tire on the rim yet, is that correct too? (Hate to see tires popping off rims at 100mph+... that's a Bad Day no matter how you figure it. :D)

liveforphysics
21 November 2011, 1508
It's been raced at two events now, and it rocked.

The 10kw motor is what I'm currently running. (air cooled)

The 5kw and 10kw version both have the same terrible thermal path. Otherwise, the motor rips (until overheating).

teddillard
21 November 2011, 1643
... the motor rips (until overheating).

Thanks...

Sorry to press this, but can you hazard a guess... do you think that the liquid cooling would take care of that? Im sure it would help... and I mean obviously there are other factors, like how you're running it etc, but I'm just trying to get at whether the liquid cooling would be worth messing with. My guess is that if they both have bad thermal paths, it's going to help, but not as much as it should (or I'd hope).

liveforphysics
21 November 2011, 1730
I have the liquid cooled 10kw version sitting on a shelf here, but I've not tried it, and I wouldn't even hazard a guess at this point. If the liquid jacket lets it get to the coils, it could be fantastic. If it just jackets the outside of the case that has a terrible thermal path to the coils, then it might just be more complexity and packaging hassle for minimal advantage. Or, anywhere in between those two. :-)

Fab man
21 November 2011, 2021
I would wager it's faster 0-60mph than any DIY e-motorcycle that has under $40,000 into it, rips hard past 100mph, and happily zips along bicycle paths and through parks and needs no registration or plates or insurance etc. :-) It's a reasonable man's bicycle. :-)

To repeat:How do you plan to get around the state and federal laws for electricity powered bicycles(wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws)? The laws generally limit the power to 1kW, and the speed to 20 mph.

frodus
21 November 2011, 2022
Hey Luke!
Thanks for all the insight, I've always wondered about that motor.

Warren
21 November 2011, 2039
"How do you plan to get around the state and federal laws for electricity powered bicycles"

Any time I drive on the interstate, I am passed by cars going 5-15 mph over the limit. Not just a few, but probably 90%. Far worse, I am passed by huge tractor trailer rigs going well over the limit. Down I-81 it is insane. Seemingly half the vehicles are semis going way over the limit. Listening to the daily news about tractor trailer wrecks on there reminds me of the news reports of Asian ferry sinkings. After while you can only shake your head. Hopefully, before the police ticket guys on 50-80 pound electric bicycles, they will enforce the speed limits for cars. Bringing back the 55 mph speed limit would do more for reducing foreign oil consumption than all the electric vehicles that will be sold in the next twenty years.

Fab man
21 November 2011, 2112
I was referring to" live for physics" use of the bike paths. IMO if he wants to burn it up on the track or take his chances on the highway-more power to him!

Here's the scenario that worries me: Somebody, on a bike like his going 40-50 mph, kills or seriously injuries somebody on a bike path. All electric bicycles(including my 800w, 20mph bike) get banned from the bike path. Now, I have to ride on the highway-putting my life in greater danger.

A friend explained it to me another way when I thought about putting a bike like Lfor P's on the bike path. He said: " people died to get the bike paths built. Do you seriously think they'll put up with a bike like yours"

Let's keep the bike paths safe

liveforphysics
21 November 2011, 2211
To repeat:How do you plan to get around the state and federal laws for electricity powered bicycles(wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws)? The laws generally limit the power to 1kW, and the speed to 20 mph.


Ehh, same way my 10 second street car gets around just fine on the street. Just because it's capable of mind bending acceleration doesn't mean I have to use it's power at bad times. I go past cops with a wave and a smile, silently going maybe 35mph or whatever, they smile and wave back. If pedestrians or other cyclists are on the path, I slow it down to whatever speed is reasonable and safe to pass through.

My street-legal-ish race car and 190hp built GSX-R is capable of getting from 55mph on the highway to >170mph in just a few seconds. Doesn't mean it's ever caused a legal issue or inconvience for anyone, unless you count the cars and bikes that try to race and get smoked. :-)

No vehicle itself should be illegal, just operating it in a way that becomes reckless to others is what should be illegal.

podolefsky
21 November 2011, 2226
I think the point is that with the power and speed your bike is capable of, legally it should be registered as a motorcycle. You can probably get by the cops just fine because they don't know what it is, but be careful. If they get wind of what it really is, at some point you'll get stopped and have to deal with it.

Or, if you have a controller failure on the bike path and suddenly find yourself with full power to the motor...seems bad. Is it likely? No...but accidents do happen.

Like they say, have fun, but be safe.

Fab man
21 November 2011, 2241
Ehh, same way my 10 second street car gets around just fine on the street. Just because it's capable of mind bending acceleration doesn't mean I have to use it's power at bad times. I go past cops with a wave and a smile, silently going maybe 35mph or whatever, they smile and wave back. If pedestrians or other cyclists are on the path, I slow it down to whatever speed is reasonable and safe to pass through.

My street-legal-ish race car and 190hp built GSX-R is capable of getting from 55mph on the highway to >170mph in just a few seconds. Doesn't mean it's ever caused a legal issue or inconvience for anyone, unless you count the cars and bikes that try to race and get smoked. :-)

No vehicle itself should be illegal, just operating it in a way that becomes reckless to others is what should be illegal.

So, you'd have no problem if everyone operated a bike like yours on the bike path? Even if they lacked your obvious skill and conscientiousness?

liveforphysics
22 November 2011, 0019
So, you'd have no problem if everyone operated a bike like yours on the bike path? Even if they lacked your obvious skill and conscientiousness?

I'm not clear if you're just trying to be argumentative or what, but yes, I don't care what pedal-assist contraption somebody wants to bring on the bike path, provided they don't operate it in a manor that endangers other folks using the path.

The only close-calls or actually collisions I've ever seen on the bike path have been joggers cutting in front of cyclists (pedal cyclists) coming behind them, and lycra-clad road cyclists who don't stop or slow for any intersections, and pedal through crowds of joggers or other cyclists like it's a giant race.

I've never seen an electric or gas bicycle of any power level cause any issues on a bike path. Maybe because they are making good time so they don't feel like they have to blow through intersections, and because it's effortless to get back up to speed in a few seconds, so they don't mind slowing down to ride through the places where other folks are jogging or cycling etc.


If you're a jack-ass, you're going to be a problem anywhere on anything you're operating. If you're not a jack-ass, it doesn't really matter where or what you're riding.

At least thats my $0.02

podolefsky
22 November 2011, 0029
I think its fine if you really believe it's safe, ride in control, and remember you represent the EV community whenever you're out there.

teddillard
22 November 2011, 0427
Let's keep the bike paths safe

Yeah, uh, you've obviously never ridden bike paths in Boston. :O Between joggers, other bikes, dogs on leashes (thus the phrase: "I got leashed"), cars (yes, CARS driven by the Boston Police and the Parks guys) and the general onslaught of Nature, some madman on an overpowered electric bike seems fairly benign.

Besides that, I'm not sure, but I daresay he was making a joke. God forbid.

Back on topic, thanks for posting the info on the motor, liveforphysics... I'll second frodus, I've been sniffing around this company for a few years and hadn't been able to get any info from actual use. I have an obsession for cooling motors, so I was dying to see what this one was all about. It sounds to me like it's a decent basic design, and they slapped a cooling jacket on it without much thought. Now, of course, I want to take it apart to see if it could be cooled better... HA!

Warren
14 December 2011, 1705
Luke is at it again.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34628