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View Full Version : SWIGZ bike parts and pieces ("after-action report"?)



teddillard
08 September 2011, 0412
In an effort to try to actually learn something from the SWIGZ effort, I found this stuff on the Yates site. Pretty interesting stuff about the build details:
http://www.chipyates.com/official_status

...talks about the build of the controller, with some info on the MoTeC ACL, a nice photo of Gene's charger, a very brief explain of the "Push-To-Pass" feature that is supposed to calculate and deliver 100% of the available charge left for finishing the race.

Here is their "technology development" page: http://www.chipyates.com/technology_development where they show the controller guts.

The specs are here: http://www.chipyates.com/electric_specs
...though they claim to be current they obviously are not, showing the Headway configuration.

Lingering questions, maybe someone can answer them: What happened to the KERS? What batteries did he ultimately run? How did all this cool stuff actually work? What was the actual final horsepower rating? I've seen claims ranging from 196 to 240.

And, on horsepower again... I realize with my recent comments this may be interpreted as being negative (god forbid), but again, I'm just trying to learn... but he was unable to maintain speed because of battery failure at Bonneville. It' s fine to have a dyno run or two showing horsepower numbers, but if the batteries can't maintain those numbers then they're going to fail, right? I can tap my 20C batteries at higher than 20C and get bigger hp numbers for until my batteries burn up, but is that true hp (or, useful hp)? This is why I'm confused by the claims.

The point being... you can turn up the controller and beef up the motor to run on the dyno and get bigger numbers, but isn't that kind of misleading if the bike can't run that for a sustained trial?

Is there any other source of up to date info on the rig he ran this year? He says on the site that patent conflicts prevent him from posting info on some aspects of the build, I'm assuming that's the KERS system...

lugnut
08 September 2011, 0608
Lingering questions, maybe someone can answer them: What happened to the KERS? What batteries did he ultimately run? How did all this cool stuff actually work? What was the actual final horsepower rating? I've seen claims ranging from 196 to 240.

Thanks for posting those links. I had not seen those.

The Yates' KERS system? It was overly complex and doomed from the start, IMO. He wasted a year developing it and missed the 2010 season where he had signed up to participate in the TTXGP. But finally abandoned the KERS and actually put the bike on the track in 2011. By then TTXGP had lowered the bike weight to 250 kg and Yates was near 300, so he bitched about it a bit and then went racing against the gassers. He never did run head to head with another fast electric like Czysz or Lightning or Mission, which could actually demonstrate he had a superior package.

Batteries? I have never seen this confirmed in print, but I have heard he was using Kokam.

How did the cool stuff work? I don't know. He had a powerful electric MC. Did some fast laps. Made some fast straight line runs. In the end, Lightning was faster and we'll never know if Yates could beat Czysz on a circuit head to head.

I saw 258 hp stated on one of his tweets. I think this is a number from a dynamometer test and a peak value. On the subject, the Lawless drag bike makes near 750 hp according to Shawn, so Yates does not have the "most powerful".

Peak power is peak or just a point in time. Rated power needs to have a time duration associated with it. Obviously a battery powered system cannot run continuously, so the rated power should be associated with the type of duty required from the machine. Maybe 10 seconds for a drag bike, 60 seconds for LSR, and 10 minutes for a circuit racer. All the numbers I see from Yates I consider to be peak values. And as he found out at Bonneville, a peak does not get you a mile and the hp "rating" needs to include the system (with batteries), not just the motor.

In the end, Yates did a lot with it and made a lot of noise about it. I guess overall, it was a good experience for the elmoto cause. But it has turned out that he:
1) Does not have the most powerful electric motorcycle.
2) Is not the fastest electric motorcycle.
3) Has the most technically advanced electric motorcycle-----so what?

teddillard
08 September 2011, 0628
Thanks, that makes more sense to me on the HP figures. I understand on the overall performance, but by "how the cool stuff worked", I was really trying to get a grip on if the gadgets like the "Push-to-Pass" thing actually worked out... seems like it would take some luck to hit that right, what with battery sag, temperature, stuff like that.

I'd like to try to keep this thread about the tech, rather than about the, em, other things associated with the bike, if we could.

Nuts & Volts
08 September 2011, 0632
Ted, its magic, deal with it :) Cant say Ive seen updated specs on this bike. Please let me speculate some on your other questions. Chip never pubilicly (and maybe not privately) tested the capability of his KERS system. All talk and show, but no data from him :( I guess that he determined that the system would provide the performance advantage he claimed and thus it would hurt his overall bike performance.

I'll also speculate on the increased performance. Peak power has to due with the max operating temp of the weak component. So to increase peak power you just need to increase cooling to push the weak component right to its limit. So Chip most likely added copper tubing, increased coolant flow/pressure, lowered the coolant temp, or some other trick. He may have also added more heatsinks or swapped power electronics for more expensive and "less weak" parts. He may also increased the V and I limits in the controller to the limits of the components. All this is guesses based on what I would do if I had his money and project

I have speculated before based on some of his interviews that his batteries are 31Ah Kokam pouch cells (103 or so in series) that are only rated to 10C, so he was really stressing them with more than 150HP. This makes sense that he could probably get 15C out of them on a dyno for 10sec, but 30+ sec on the salt made them crap out???

You do make a good point about his dyno runs. Just remember he is talking about peak numbers and really those are always misleading (ie what are the conditions, temp, time...) The dyno numbers definitely wont translate directly to a 2-3 min salt flat run. Chip does deserve credit for finding the limits of the UQM system and then pushing them, but he ran into problems when his work was tested doing the real thing

Hope you are now a certified magician :cool:

lugnut
08 September 2011, 0635
I'd like to try to keep this thread about the tech, rather than about the, em, other things associated with the bike, if we could.

Yes, I tried :-) But what really matters is how the tech translates to the track.

podolefsky
08 September 2011, 0741
I'd like to try to keep this thread about the tech, rather than about the, em, other things associated with the bike, if we could.

Good call, which is why I started a new thread:

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?1630-3-mis-statements-about-Chip-Yates&p=19931#post19931

teddillard
08 September 2011, 0756
... 31Ah Kokam pouch cells (103 or so in series) that are only rated to 10C, ...

So what you're saying is that remotecontact's bike (5kwh @ 30C lipo) is MORE POWERFUL?

(ducks, runs away...)

Nuts & Volts
08 September 2011, 0759
So what you're saying is that remotecontact's bike (5kwh @ 30C lipo) is MORE POWERFUL?

(ducks, runs away...)

If RC says it is then yes :) However Yates still does have a dyno run with his bike up to 200HP+, let me know when RC puts those numbers down :p

Remotecontact
08 September 2011, 0850
I'm workin on it.