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ElMotoMike
02 September 2010, 1424
282
Published on EVWorld (http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23913) on Sept 2, 2010

PAPILLION, NE (2 September 2010) Lightning Motorcycles, winners of the first North American TTXGP race series for electric motorcycles, today broke its own land speed records at Bonneville Salt Flats set just two days ago.

On August 31, 2010, the bike set a new Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) and American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) land speed record of 162 mph. On September 1, the team then achieved a top speed of 166.3 mph.

Read more HERE (http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23913)

Lawlessind
02 September 2010, 1532
Those are very impressive numbers. Congratulations to their team. At the risk of fueling any fire, isn't Kent's Omega class record (176 I believe), and top speed of 179 still faster? Please enlighten me.

Shawn

killacycle
03 September 2010, 1221
Those are very impressive numbers. Congratulations to their team. At the risk of fueling any fire, isn't Kent's Omega class record (176 I believe), and top speed of 179 still faster? Please enlighten me.

Shawn

You are correct. There are at least 4 major land speed sanctioning bodies that include motorcycles:
SCTA, ECTA, FIM, and AMA.

Lightning just set an AMA and an FIM electric motorcycle land speed record. (I think both, but may be just one or the other. Both sanctioning bodies were timing the BUB event.) Kent holds the SCTA electric motorcycle record of 179 MPH. Different sanctioning body. Different records. _Slightly_ different rules.

There are also many record classes within each sanctioning body. Both Kent's bike and the Lightning are classified as "Special Construction, Partial Streamlining, Omega" class (APS-Omega) in the SCTA. I would assume that the Lightning and the MotoCzysz are both classified in the equivalent FIM and AMA class to the SCTA ASP-Omega class. Neither has 500 produced. Both have cowling where you can see the rider's profile. Neither has a side car. etc.

There are 1000's of classes for LSR. Lots of displacement classes and classes like "V-twin" Not many electric classes at the moment, however. No voltage classes. :( Electrics are classed with steam, and other alternative drive technologies in the SCTA. No separate electric class.

Bill D.

eracebike.com
03 September 2010, 1404
As a tech inspector and rules advisory committee member for the SCTA I can tell you that we will not be adding additional classes for electric vehicles and probably will never add "voltage" classes
Kent Riches

teddillard
03 September 2010, 1422
You are correct. There are at least 4 major land speed sanctioning bodies that include motorcycles:
SCTA, ECTA, FIM, and AMA.

Lightning just set an AMA and an FIM electric motorcycle land speed record. (I think both, but may be just one or the other. Both sanctioning bodies were timing the BUB event.) Kent holds the SCTA electric motorcycle record of 179 MPH. Different sanctioning body. Different records. _Slightly_ different rules.

There are also many record classes within each sanctioning body. Both Kent's bike and the Lightning are classified as "Special Construction, Partial Streamlining, Omega" class (APS-Omega) in the SCTA. I would assume that the Lightning and the MotoCzysz are both classified in the equivalent FIM and AMA class to the SCTA ASP-Omega class. Neither has 500 produced. Both have cowling where you can see the rider's profile. Neither has a side car. etc.

There are 1000's of classes for LSR. Lots of displacement classes and classes like "V-twin" Not many electric classes at the moment, however. No voltage classes. :( Electrics are classed with steam, and other alternative drive technologies in the SCTA. No separate electric class.

Bill D.

Very helpful information... Does each sanctioning body have it's own set of classes? I'm also still trying to figure out if the Buckeye Bullet 2.5 is a two-wheeled vehicle, does anyone know?

eracebike.com
03 September 2010, 1433
The BB2.5 is a 4 wheel car.... it is a redesigned version of the Hydrogen BB2 car to straight battery thus BB2.5

The ECTA and DRLA rules mimic almost to the word to the SCTA rules.... When Denis Manning started his race event he went to the AMA for sanctioning to gain access to cheaper event insurance from K&K... he modified the SCTA rules for his event to kinda align them for the racers sake... He has also modified the FIM rules to some extent for his event but there are great differences in rules on a few specific classes.... but in a nutshell the rules are pretty darn close

Kent Riches
www.eracebike.com
www.motorcyclebodywork.com

teddillard
03 September 2010, 1447
ah! light dawns on marble head... oh wait, that's baldbruce. :D

Lawlessind
04 September 2010, 0415
Thanks for the clarifications. Now here is another one for you. I have never run on the salt ,(except here in Ohio in January), but given the information that I have seen, top speeds on salt are generally a bit slower than they would be on concrete. However, the flats are at altitude and the air is thinner, (good for EV's), so is it a wash? Does someone have a calculator out there that adjusts required hp for a top speed based on altitude.
Can an EV go faster at the salt flats or at sea level on concrete?

magicsmoke
04 September 2010, 0635
Does someone have a calculator out there that adjusts required hp for a top speed based on altitude.

This one's not exactly what you're after but will show the differing drag power at differing altitudes (and latitudes!).
Perhaps more interesting to you fast boys though is that its real purpose is for calculating front / rear aero lift.

Rob

eracebike.com
04 September 2010, 2018
Mr. Lawless
I’m not sure what data you are referring to as far as your "information" comparison of salt to concrete.... the fastest sit on motorcycle at Maxton is 263, At loring its 250 something and I believe the Texas mile is less than 260.... and at el-mirage is one of my bikes at 252.... The fastest sit on bike at Bonneville is 272... The same comparisons can be made for 3 and 4 wheeled vehicles.... I believe the fastest electric motorcycle on concrete is 174 and the fastest pass at Bonneville is 179.... It looks to me like Bonneville is still “the fastest place on earth” All of the sanctioning bodies post there records on their web sites for your own research

Magic
The only way to create lift is to have a fairly flat surface like a wing... a round surface can have forces in several axis

Kent

magicsmoke
04 September 2010, 2034
Magic
The only way to create lift is to have a fairly flat surface like a wing... a round surface can have forces in several axis
Kent

Kent, I'm only the messenger, not the author of the spreadsheet :)
But, "to have a fairly flat surface like a wing" being the only way to create lift is not true ... spinning golf balls, footballs etc.
Also, a round shape at speed close to a flat surface will have a greater air pressure between them than the 'open' plane.

Rob

Lawlessind
04 September 2010, 2045
Kent,

This was one of the sources that I was referring to. It is the Bonneville 200 club page.

" The Salt Flats is a demanding race course, if it isn't the heat sucking the life out of you or the breath out of your engine then it's the rain trying to send everyone packing and then you have the salt itself. The salt will drag you tires down like you've likely never experienced before.

The coveted 200 mph club is a select group of people who have exceeded the 200 mph mark on the official timers for the Bonneville Salt Flats (or any of the other land speed record tracks). While 200 miles per hour is a commonplace occurrence on a NASCAR track and even more common on a drag strip it comes at a higher price on the Salt. The traction problems with the loose salt, the unevenness of the track itself. "

I take the above to mean that a vehicle will run slower on the salt than on concrete, all other factors being even. If salt were actually faster (had less drag) I would think my local Air Force base would have a 2 mile salt runway instead of the concrete one that they have. As I said I don't know, I have only driven on Ohio road salt. That is why I posed the question.

magicsmoke
05 September 2010, 0344
the fastest sit on motorcycle at Maxton is 263, At loring its 250 something and I believe the Texas mile is less than 260.... and at el-mirage is one of my bikes at 252.... The fastest sit on bike at Bonneville is 272... The same comparisons can be made for 3 and 4 wheeled vehicles.... I believe the fastest electric motorcycle on concrete is 174 and the fastest pass at Bonneville is 179.... It looks to me like Bonneville is still “the fastest place on earth” All of the sanctioning bodies post there records on their web sites for your own research

Kent

Hi Kent,
jeez, with all these different sanctioning bodies and 'classes' it must be a nightmare planning a project.

Looks like a couple of the records have updated since your last look ..

Maxton / 272.374 / Bill Warner
http://www.ecta-lsr.com/
http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_1007_bill_warner_maxton_speed_record/index.html

Loring / 260.99 (265.188) / Shane Stubbs
http://www.lta-lsr.com/HOME.htm
http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=214

also, to add to the debate, a snippet from an article about Mission Motors' 2009 record run ..


One of the most surprising facts is that racing on salt is actually slower than racing on asphalt, which would make running at Bonneville seem counter-intuitive. The salt pack can vary greatly in its resistance, depending on the level of water present, and a rough 10% velocity reduction is often assumed when trying to compare the two speeds.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/bub-mission-motors-officially-worlds-fastest-production-electric-motorcycle/

lastly,

It looks to me like Bonneville is still “the fastest place on earth”

err, Black Rock desert, where the last 3 outright landspeed records have been set, and where Thrust SSC went supersonic!
Just had to get that one in for us Brits :)

Rob

teddillard
05 September 2010, 0350
(edit, damn Rob, you're fast...)

Also, this from Asphalt and Rubber: "... because of the slippery nature of the salt, Bonneville speeds are traditionally about 10% slower than compared to speeds on asphalt, meaning these electric bikes are flirting with 200 mph potential track speeds. "
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/bub-speed-trials-lightning-motoczysz-preview/

As far as lift only being generated by a smooth surface, it may be time to read up again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_%28force%29#Newton.27s_laws:_Lift_and_the_def lection_of_the_flow
(uh oh... better be careful. Don't want to be appearing as "know it all hobbyists" as Mr Kent Riches referred to us as in an email recently...)

...yeah, all those classes are starting to make me understand why you see the "World's Fastest... (hydrogen powered toilet?)" claims everywhere. Don't want anyone to go home crying to their mommies, I guess...

Oh, and the Black Rock Desert? Holy crap. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rock_Desert

It took a Brit to show me this? ...dammit. Gotta get out more...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Fly_Geyser%2C_near_Gerlach%2C_Nevada.jpg/220px-Fly_Geyser%2C_near_Gerlach%2C_Nevada.jpg