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Jack Riggi
28 November 2011, 2205
Is this a good one to use on my bike or or do you guys suggest a different one? I'll be using 72 V pack. Does the price of $94.88 sound okay or is it to too expensive? Please let me know if you guy have a cheaper one that works better or if this will be fine Tyco Kilovac 500A 320VDC LEV200 Contactor


Datasheet



The LEV200 is designed to be the lowest cost sealed contactor in the industry. It can break up to 2000A (once), and will carry continuously 500A at up to 320V if properly heatsinked at the terminals (using very large copper conductors - consult the datasheet for specifics). The LEV200 is hermetically sealed, so it can be operated in enclosed harsh/explosive spaces such as battery boxes. The contactor has magnetic blowouts to aid in the squelching of arcs if the contactor must make/break current.

The coil is rated for 12VDC, and requires about 1A to hold. The contactor can be ordered with or without auxiliary contacts (auxiliary contacts are used to sense when the main internal contact is open/closed). For more specifications, see the datasheet.

For this contactor to operate safely, and be capable of disconnecting the controller from the battery pack in the event of a failure, the following design guidelines should be followed:

Used only on 300V systems or lower

Properly heatsinked at the contact terminals for the continuous currents that will be

is this a

frodus
28 November 2011, 2241
as long as you use 12V to switch the contactor on and off, you're fine.

EVcycle
29 November 2011, 0732
That is the one I use on the cafe bike. Works great.
Like Travis stated, it is a 12 coil unit so a DC to DC unit will be needed or a separate 12 battery. (or both!)

__Tango
29 November 2011, 0850
When buying one of these, keep in mind that there are a couple of versions of this contactor with different coil ratings (DC: 12V, 24V, 48V, 72V, 96V, 110V and AC: 115V, 220V). You can tell from the full model number.

http://relays.te.com/datasheets/lev200_ds_9-1773439-1.pdf (check out the "Part numbering" section on the bottom right corner of the first page).

Trav & Ed are most likely right though, since most of the LEV200s that i've ever seen for sale have been the 12VDC coil versions.

Jack Riggi
29 November 2011, 0919
Good day Ed, I've got one question instead of using a DC DC unit or a separate 12 V battery could you run it off half of one of the 24 V lithium packs? Off of 4 cells that make up 12 V!

SWF
29 November 2011, 0927
Like Tango said, there are different versions of these available. Also, it looks like the specs may have changed over time. The KILOVAC contactor model I have (EV200AAANA) and the associated datasheet gives a coil voltage range of 9 - 36VDC. They also list specs for models with coil voltage ranges of 32-95VDC (model EV200ADANA) and 48-95VDC (model EV200AJANA)

See http://www.te.com/catalog/products/en?q=ev200

__Tango
29 November 2011, 0959
SWF: the EV200 and LEV200 are different contactors. The EV200 is the original and has a coil economizer. The LEV200 is cheaper and doesn't have the economizer.

From the evsource page:

The advantage of the EV200 over the LEV200 is the smaller size and coil economizer. The coil economizer reduces the coil holding current from 1A at 12V down to less than 0.15A at 12V!

Jack: is this the place you were thinking of getting the LEV200? If so, I believe they sell the 12VDC version.

frodus
29 November 2011, 1036
The ev200 is way cheaper on eBay.

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

ZoomSmith
29 November 2011, 1042
Jack,

You are going to need 12V for all your lights anyway. Tapping off four of the CALB's will work but will drain those four cells a lot faster, and run the risk of killing them.

It's pretty cheap to add a 12V battery to power your all your low voltage needs. After you like how stuff is running you can upgrade to a DC/DC converter.

--z

billmi
29 November 2011, 1214
Good day Ed, I've got one question instead of using a DC DC unit or a separate 12 V battery could you run it off half of one of the 24 V lithium packs? Off of 4 cells that make up 12 V!

Not if you don't want to throw the pack out of balance.

EVcycle
29 November 2011, 1509
Not if you don't want to throw the pack out of balance.

Ditto! Run a separate 12V source.

Jack Riggi
29 November 2011, 1528
Not that I am pickie but do they make the EV200AAANA in a side mount?

Jack Riggi
29 November 2011, 1707
Thank you for all the information about which contactors I should use. I just put two pictures so you can see I already have a 12 V battery for my lights that is a nice little carbon fiber lithium battery. Is it okay to use the battery in my bike, the 12 V battery for the lights and the contactor? I'm not going to use CALB's in my bike, there's a picture of the GBS cells that I'll be using. I've already got one 24 V pack out of my minibike already mounted in the bike so all they need now are two more 24 V packs! I was just using the CALB's to get an idea where I was going to put the other two packs.

Jack Riggi
29 November 2011, 1754
I clicked on go advanced to post a couple of pictures of the battery pack and the 12 V battery I'm using for the lights and the contactor, is it okay to use the contactor with the light battery? But in the title spot I guess I changed the name of the post to, 12 V battery for contactor, and for some reason it's not showing up in the form unless I click on last post. When I click on the 12 V battery for contactor link, I guess it's the link it doesn't show up the pictures! Still trying to learn how to use this site doing better but I am still having some difficulties. It's kind of hard to concentrate to when my wife keeps telling and yelling at me get out! And locks the door going to the bathroom upstairs, anyway I put the pictures on there somewhere maybe when I post this the pictures will show up in front of it I hope!

Tony Coiro
29 November 2011, 2037
I don't think it's been mentioned and I speed scanned the topic but I had a terrible time with the EV200, it's a great contactor and in certain applications it can't be beat for cost, size, current handling, etc. But some controllers cannot drive it, since the initial current is 3.8A, more than the 2A most controllers can output. The controller will think it's a short circuit and the contactor will only kinda shudder.

podolefsky
29 November 2011, 2108
Not that I am pickie but do they make the EV200AAANA in a side mount?

I don't think so, but the LEV200 (not EV200) does come in a side mount. Only problem is that it's hard to find - but they're out there.



I don't think it's been mentioned and I speed scanned the topic but I had a terrible time with the EV200, it's a great contactor and in certain applications it can't be beat for cost, size, current handling, etc. But some controllers cannot drive it, since the initial current is 3.8A, more than the 2A most controllers can output. The controller will think it's a short circuit and the contactor will only kinda shudder.

Yeah, probably wise to stick with the LEV. Although I think if you have a DC source that can provide the pull in current the EV should be OK.

What controller do you have Jack?

podolefsky
29 November 2011, 2115
I clicked on go advanced to post a couple of pictures of the battery pack and the 12 V battery I'm using for the lights and the contactor, is it okay to use the contactor with the light battery? But in the title spot I guess I changed the name of the post to, 12 V battery for contactor, and for some reason it's not showing up in the form unless I click on last post. When I click on the 12 V battery for contactor link, I guess it's the link it doesn't show up the pictures! Still trying to learn how to use this site doing better but I am still having some difficulties. It's kind of hard to concentrate to when my wife keeps telling and yelling at me get out! And locks the door going to the bathroom upstairs, anyway I put the pictures on there somewhere maybe when I post this the pictures will show up in front of it I hope!

Just saw this and your other thread - yeah, just run the 12V contactor off of that battery. That should avoid the problems Tony had with the EV200 (I think). Definitely better than tapping into the pack. Just make sure you keep that battery charged, because if it drops voltage you won't be able to run the bike...and if it drops while you're on the throttle, the contactor could open while there's current through it (not good).

SWF
30 November 2011, 1111
I don't think it's been mentioned and I speed scanned the topic but I had a terrible time with the EV200, it's a great contactor and in certain applications it can't be beat for cost, size, current handling, etc. But some controllers cannot drive it, since the initial current is 3.8A, more than the 2A most controllers can output. The controller will think it's a short circuit and the contactor will only kinda shudder.

Did you have this experience with a Curtis AC controller, specifically the 1238? The EV200 inrush current does exceed the 2A limit of the controller, but the inrush time on the contractor is listed as 130ms, and the holding current is only about 0.1A.

frodus
30 November 2011, 1216
Problem is that the Curtis pwm's the contactor which interferes with the coil economizer. They don't work together. You need to use lev200 with the Curtis AC controllers and some sevcon.

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

__Tango
30 November 2011, 1326
Problem is that the Curtis pwm's the contactor which interferes with the coil economizer. They don't work together. You need to use lev200 with the Curtis AC controllers and some sevcon.

i've seen you and others mention this (that the curtis pwm's the contactor). Just wondering, why does it do that? to bring the voltage up slowly for some reason?

DaveAK
30 November 2011, 1333
i've seen you and others mention this (that the curtis pwm's the contactor). Just wondering, why does it do that? to bring the voltage up slowly for some reason?
With the Sevcon it's so you can run a 24V coil on any voltage system. I think the Curtis allows more options, but I assume that it's the same idea - i.e. you can run a different voltage coil than your pack voltage.

podolefsky
30 November 2011, 1340
i've seen you and others mention this (that the curtis pwm's the contactor). Just wondering, why does it do that? to bring the voltage up slowly for some reason?

PWM is how the contactor sets the coil voltage as a % of pack voltage. 32% duty cycle gives you ~24V from a 76V nominal pack.

teddillard
30 November 2011, 1346
i've seen you and others mention this (that the curtis pwm's the contactor). Just wondering, why does it do that? to bring the voltage up slowly for some reason?

I'll give you the same answer... but different. :D My understanding was that it was to hold the contactor closed more efficiently. Saving power.

podolefsky
30 November 2011, 1355
I'll give you the same answer... but different. :D My understanding was that it was to hold the contactor closed more efficiently. Saving power.

it's both. the Curtis lets you set pull in voltage and holding voltage separately, both controlled by PWM. so you can have a high pull in voltage, then scale back for holding. that saves you power, but PWM alone doesn't save power.

DaveAK
30 November 2011, 1508
it's both. the Curtis lets you set pull in voltage and holding voltage separately, both controlled by PWM. so you can have a high pull in voltage, then scale back for holding. that saves you power, but PWM alone doesn't save power.
The Sevcon does that as well, but I don't think PWM is the reason for any of that, it's simply the chosen mechanism in a digital device to reduce voltage. You guys are thinking too hard. :D

The Sevcon manual clearly states that the contactor can be driven by 24V to enable the OEM to stock one type of contactor for multiple vehicles, thus reducing inventory. It also states that the contactor drive can be set to drop to 16V after the contactor closes for efficiency, or left at 24V if driving something else. The Curtis is more adjustable than the Sevcon, but I'm sure it's based on the same principal.

PWM is how they do it, not why they do it. At least, that's my story.

podolefsky
30 November 2011, 1636
PWM is how they do it, not why they do it. At least, that's my story.

that's what i meant.

they have two voltage levels to save energy.

they use PWM to vary the voltage.

you could have just one voltage level, it would still be PWM. it just wouldn't save you any energy.

AFAIK, the economizer on the EV200 does use PWM to save energy - that is, it saves energy by converting high voltage/low current input to low voltage/high current on the coil (the holding power depends on coil current, not voltage). again, PWM is how it's done, not why it's done.

teddillard
30 November 2011, 1805
that's what i meant

well why didn't you SAY so?

:D

SWF
30 November 2011, 1934
AFAIK, the economizer on the EV200 does use PWM to save energy - that is, it saves energy by converting high voltage/low current input to low voltage/high current on the coil (the holding power depends on coil current, not voltage). again, PWM is how it's done, not why it's done.

Out of curiosity I measured the output voltage from the economizer board mounted on the side of the EV200. With an input voltage of 24V the output voltage driving the coil was just under 2V.

Don't mean to highjack the topic of the thread, but if I were to program the pull in voltage on the curtis to the high end of the acceptable voltage for the EV200 model I have (36V), do you think it would reduce the initial current down below the 2A limit of the curtis controller coil drive #1 circuit? The EV200 model I have lists the 3.8A inrush current as the maximum and I assume this is when the low end of the coil voltage range (9V) is used. So at 36V perhaps the inrush current would be within the 2A limits of the controller. For the higher voltage EV200 models, I do notice that the inrush current appears to be roughly proportional to the low end of the coil voltage range (3.8A @ 9V, 1.3A @ 32V, 0.7A @ 48V) Thoughts?

SWF
30 November 2011, 2040
AFAIK, the economizer on the EV200 does use PWM to save energy - that is, it saves energy by converting high voltage/low current input to low voltage/high current on the coil (the holding power depends on coil current, not voltage). again, PWM is how it's done, not why it's done.

Out of curiosity I measured the output voltage from the economizer board on the EV200. With an input voltage of 24V the output voltage was just under 2V on my model.

Don't mean to highjack the topic of the thread, but if I were to program the pull in voltage on the curtis to the high end of the acceptable voltage for the EV200 model I have (36V), do you think it would reduce the initial current down below the 2A limit of the curtis controller coil drive #1 circuit? The EV200 model I have lists the 3.8A inrush current as the maximum and I assume this is when the low end of the coil voltage range (9V) is used. So at 36V perhaps the inrush current would be within the 2A limits of the controller. For the higher voltage EV200 models, I do notice that the inrush current appears to be roughly proportional to the low end of the coil voltage range (3.8A @ 9V, 1.3A @ 32V, 0.7A @ 48V) Thoughts?

SWF
01 December 2011, 0617
AFAIK, the economizer on the EV200 does use PWM to save energy - that is, it saves energy by converting high voltage/low current input to low voltage/high current on the coil (the holding power depends on coil current, not voltage). again, PWM is how it's done, not why it's done.

Out of curiosity I measured the output voltage from the economizer board on the EV200. With an input voltage of 24V the output voltage was just under 2V on my model.

Don't mean to highjack the topic of the thread, but if I were to program the pull in voltage on the curtis to the high end of the acceptable voltage for the EV200 model I have (36V), do you think it would reduce the initial current down below the 2A limit of the curtis controller coil drive #1 circuit? The EV200 model I have lists the 3.8A inrush current as the maximum and I assume this is when the low end of the coil voltage range (9V) is used. So at 36V perhaps the inrush current would be within the 2A limits of the controller. For the higher voltage EV200 models, I do notice that the inrush current appears to be roughly proportional to the low end of the coil voltage range (3.8A @ 9V, 1.3A @ 32V, 0.7A @ 48V) Thoughts?

SWF
01 December 2011, 0907
AFAIK, the economizer on the EV200 does use PWM to save energy - that is, it saves energy by converting high voltage/low current input to low voltage/high current on the coil (the holding power depends on coil current, not voltage). again, PWM is how it's done, not why it's done.

Out of curiosity I measured the output voltage from the economizer board on the EV200. With an input voltage of 24V the output voltage was just under 2V on my model.

Don't mean to highjack the topic of the thread, but if I were to program the pull in voltage on the curtis to the high end of the acceptable voltage for the EV200 model I have (36V), do you think it would reduce the initial current down below the 2A limit of the curtis controller coil drive #1 circuit? The EV200 model I have lists the 3.8A inrush current as the maximum and I assume this is when the low end of the coil voltage range (9V) is used. So at 36V perhaps the inrush current would be within the 2A limits of the controller. For the higher voltage EV200 models, I do notice that the inrush current appears to be roughly proportional to the low end of the coil voltage range (3.8A @ 9V, 1.3A @ 32V, 0.7A @ 48V) Thoughts?

podolefsky
01 December 2011, 0920
That would seem to make sense.

Try applying 36V to the input and see if the output drops to ~1.3V. If so, that means it's smart enough to change the output voltage proportional to input, and that should also change the current.

[edit] Sorry, that's wrong. If you apply 36V and the output is still 2V, then the input current should be lower. (But anyway, what Travis said below is right - the signals will interfere, so it won't work anyway)

frodus
01 December 2011, 1004
It's not the voltage that is the issue. It's that the economizer will not work with a pwm input voltage. It's choppy and the electronics in it won't work correctly. It's a square wave and it's expecting a constant dc source.

SWF
01 December 2011, 1049
OK, I see. So if I want to use the EV200 contactor with the curtis, I guess my options are 1) see if I could eliminate the economizer circuit, hooking the the controller directly to the contactor coil with a high power resistor in series to get the right coil voltage and reduce the current draw; 2) use a relay between the contactor and controller to keep them both happy. Of course I could just buy the right contactor, but that would be too easy.

__Tango
01 December 2011, 1103
Could you use a cap in there to even out the PWM?

podolefsky
01 December 2011, 1134
OK, I see. So if I want to use the EV200 contactor with the curtis, I guess my options are 1) see if I could eliminate the economizer circuit, hooking the the controller directly to the contactor coil with a high power resistor in series to get the right coil voltage and reduce the current draw; 2) use a relay between the contactor and controller to keep them both happy. Of course I could just buy the right contactor, but that would be too easy.

Relay might work, but seems like you'd be better off just getting the right contactor.

Removing the economizer and using a resistor might work. Quick calculation, you'd need a ~26 Ohm, 30W power resistor in series with the coil (to make ~0.84 A on the coil, which I'm guessing is 2.4 Ohm from your finding that you get 2V out for 24V in @ 0.07A).



Could you use a cap in there to even out the PWM?

This also *might* work. Another calculation, I think you'd need ~150 micro-F cap. That would give you an RC time constant about 10X the period of the PWM signal. That might be enough smoothing, but that's assuming the input to the economizer is a simple 343 ohm resistance. Since it's a digital device, I'm not sure that's a safe assumption.

frodus
01 December 2011, 1224
I don't know why this is such a huge discussion sometimes. Lol.

Isn't it easier just to get the right contactor? 24v coil without economizer always works. Throw the ev200 back on eBay.

podolefsky
01 December 2011, 1241
I don't know why this is such a huge discussion sometimes. Lol.

Isn't it easier just to get the right contactor? 24v coil without economizer always works. Throw the ev200 back on eBay.

Probably because LEV is about $90-100. But yeah, just getting an LEV is the right move.

DaveAK
01 December 2011, 1244
Probably because LEV is about $90-100. But yeah, just getting an LEV is the right move.
eBay is a great place for contactors. I got a new White-Rodgers 24V 586 contactor for $20. Got an Albright SW80 36V for $25. There's a lot out there to choose from if you know what you need.

Jack Riggi
01 December 2011, 1248
that sounds good to me after reading all of the post about contractors I think I will use the new 12 v LEV 200 for my choise! thanks for all the information about everything about what is going on with the EV200 about all the different things U can or could to make every thing work better but being a newbie it is all to complicated to furgue out sound a lot easyer to just use the LEV200!!! not to change the subject but what do U guy's think about my automatic awning I did learn about diodes on all of the electic motors!

podolefsky
01 December 2011, 1317
LEV200s aren't that common on eBay. I didn't see any a couple weeks ago, and none right now (that I could find)

DaveAK
01 December 2011, 1353
LEV200s aren't that common on eBay. I didn't see any a couple weeks ago, and none right now (that I could find)
Yeah, but why does it have to be a LEV? There are other good contactors out there. Are they really that much better?

podolefsky
01 December 2011, 1407
Yeah, but why does it have to be a LEV? There are other good contactors out there. Are they really that much better?

LEV are sealed and rated for 500A continuous. also fairly compact. white rodgers are water resistant, but I don't think hermetically sealed. only rated to 200A continuous. if you're not exceeding 200A continuous, white rodgers seems fine.

albright aren't sealed...i have a jca-200, very similar. contacts are totally open to the elements, and it's kind of big and heavy (compared to the LEV).

DaveAK
01 December 2011, 1434
LEV are sealed and rated for 500A continuous. also fairly compact. white rogers are water resistant, but I don't think hermetically sealed. only rated to 200A continuous. if you're not exceeding 200A continuous, white rogers seems fine.

albright aren't sealed...i have a jca-200, very similar. contacts are totally open to the elements, and it's kind of big and heavy (compared to the LEV).
Thanks for the info! Hadn't considered all of that.