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teddillard
26 January 2013, 0331
I have a proposition. How about we all get our noodles together and build a true dream bike? At least virtually?

Here's how I think it could work. We all have our opinions and experience, we have vastly different bases of experience and qualifications. It sounds to me like a design team that could rival anybody on the planet. Plus, we don't have to actually do the build and get proved wrong... :rolleyes: Builderz, buyerz, armchair enthusiastz? Bring it on.

I think, to make it work, we need some consensus on, well, conclusions... that is, at some point we have to get off the pot and say, yeah, let's use this motor. For that reason, maybe it would be fun to have one person ride "herd" and, after hashing things out, call out the final decision. And maybe direct the discussion a bit. That way it would be a little more concrete and conclusive than just hashing over our pie-in-the-sky parts and pieces ideas.

I nominate Kyle. He's young. He's used to working in a design-team structure. He's really good at handling guys who don't play well with others (like me).

Maybe as we go along, one of you CAD guys could throw together some renderings. That way, after we're all "done" we can float it out there as the Ultimate Elmoto Dream Bike, paste it into actual scenes with scantily-clad babes and make the motorcycle world think we actually have a bike? :D

I'll start. I think it should be yellow. :o

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P-CHyzsOXCY/TgybIxnGW_I/AAAAAAAAAZc/EDOMV34hsGU/s1600/YellowSwatch.jpg

Ken Will
26 January 2013, 1049
I all ready have the Ultimate Yellow Electric Lithium Powered Bike.
4053

Hugues
26 January 2013, 1105
I want it badass black LOL

maybe we should keep color aside and start with something simpler, like motor or controller ;)

Nuts & Volts
26 January 2013, 1107
Well don't I feel special :D I'm in...at the moment I have two other bikes that need finished first, but I always have time to brainstorm! Come mid-summer I will have free time to put work into this. I also already have an R6 and a 100kW AC controller...and have plans to get a 70kW motor and more batteries. So I'm building something pretty close to my dream bike...would love to make it an El Moto racer

I am going to make the assumption that most a dream bike is a commuter sportsbike that could be track ready with about 2 hours of prep work...A little bit better ergo than a full out track bike, but swappable seats, pegs and bars can probably make a big difference here. So with this said I'll lay down some general goals for the specs of the bike.

75kW (100HP minimum)
10kWh (120miles city range minimum
450lbs maximum
30min 80% charge capable (off-board)
AC drive system

Question does it still make sense to set a maximum budget in case someone actually wants to build this? I was thinking $40k? My R6 should be around $20k and meet most of the specs above.

If you paint it Ted it can be yellow :D
-Kyle

teddillard
26 January 2013, 1138
Budgets? We don' need no stinkin' budgets! :D

I think, though, it would be cool to make it that we need to be able to actually BUY the stuff... that would at least keep it somewhat realistic.

So, here's a 2010 list of the top ten sports bikes for handling:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/First-rides-tests/2010/February/feb1810-top-10-handling-sports-bikes/

A lotta GSXRs in there, but also a Duke. I loves me a nice Duke. :p

Here's the Aprilla frame:

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/frame2.jpg

Here's the Duke frame - (they seem to like it better, actually, in the review as a more comfortable, good handling ride):

OOOH tube steel! OOOH!

http://www.indiaon2wheels.com/pics/ducati-1098-r-chassis.jpg

Nuts & Volts
26 January 2013, 1234
So available for a mortal to purchase it. check

Note that both the Aprilia and Ducati are V/L twins. This means that the frames are about 4-5" narrower than a inline 4. Can make it harder to fit everything you need too. I do like the Ducati. A 999r is a little better because the swingarm is shorter meaning more room between the swingarm pivot and the front wheel to package things.

Also on that list are CBR 600 and 1000. Virginia Tech use the 600RR for their 2012 TTXGP and the OSU team is using a CBR1000RR for our IOM bike. Both have great handling and very wide open for packaging. There is potential to get 20kWh on the CBR1000RR frame... heavy, but can fit. I think those are better fits.

One thing I have thought about doing is getting a frame and modifying the swingarm and rear shock to tuck the motor further back in the frame. Or a CBR600 F4i already has the shock out of the way...4054

__Tango
26 January 2013, 1426
What's the size difference (as far as elmoto people are concerned) between a 600 and 1000 frame?

Nuts & Volts
26 January 2013, 1727
What's the size difference (as far as elmoto people are concerned) between a 600 and 1000 frame?

That's hard to say. They aren't that much different, but the 1000 is built to handle more weight, more power, and maybe higher speeds. The CBR frames are fairly similar as far as I know.

mcf12
26 January 2013, 2310
I would like to advocate for steel tubes. I don't want to argue style preferences but keeping the metal work accessible means steel has an advantage over aluminum. Won't try to win the weight argument.

The ryca concept is worth thinking about if we are dreaming about people other than us riding them. We could have a shop that sells our basic kit to someone who can find the roller or we can find rollers and build em.

Aw hell, I will mention style. Steel gives us more things to choose from, more flexibility to mod, has more soul. There I said it.

__Tango
27 January 2013, 0031
Or a CBR600 F4i already has the shock out of the way...4054

Not quite sure how that shock is out of the way. Can you 'splain?

moon
27 January 2013, 0247
Not quite sure how that shock is out of the way. Can you 'splain?


This is a '96 F3 frame and the picture isn't the greatest but the shock is out of the way of the motor area. I think the vertical and lower shock arraignment of the GSXRs might be better from a packaging standpoint. Also, as I understand it, the CBR engine is a stressed member so I've been mulling over the frame strengthening options on that.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee71/motomoon900/side_view_zps28574d40.jpg

teddillard
27 January 2013, 0257
...has more soul. There I said it.

^^ ...I knew I liked that guy. :cool:

Yeah, the CBR was my son's suggestion for a conversion. The ride and handling review sounds pretty good too...

Those drop-down tubes in the front look like they'd be handy:
http://cmgonline.com/images/stories/archives/CMG_test_rides/03_CBR600RR/tech/BigP/03CBR600RR_frame.jpg

jonescg
27 January 2013, 0353
I also believe the best place for the motor is as close to the pivot point as possible. It doesn't have to be concentric (way too much trouble, and no real advantage) but you gain an extra 100 mm of room for a big diameter AC motor.

All the more reason for a custom frame, but the swingarm can be a Ducati supersport since the shock is mounted above the motor. Hold this thought - Randy (Framecrafters) is developing a third generation bimetallic frame for a 200 kg electric bike (mine) and it's going to be much easier to make numbers 2 3 and 4 as the bugs are ironed out. Bugger an ICE chassis - steal the geometry and make it fit a battery/motor/controller combo how you want it.

teddillard
27 January 2013, 0515
Fair enough... can't wait to see what you come up with!

As far as motors go, I happen to know someone (>cough< remotecontact) with a crap-ton of these available for cheap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345

In fact, I'm picking up mine today. :cool:

Heres the sheet on it: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=97120

Here it is in his Ninja 250, replacing his AC20, running it with his Curtis 1238:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hmcwVdQPWTg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...he said it's basically an AC35. (...somewhere an Empulse "owner" is crying lol)

jonescg
27 January 2013, 0540
Just make sure he swaps the phase wires or you'll be going backwards at a great rate :D

Hugues
27 January 2013, 1002
....

Here it is in his Ninja 250, replacing his AC20, running it with his Curtis 1238:....

something i don't get here Ted, you say replacing his AC20, but then why:
- AC20: about 25 kgs, 100 Nm, 37 kw, 180mm Diam, 330 mm long
- AC24LS: 40 kgs, 87 Nm, 35 kw, 244mm diam, 345mm long

Am I missing something here ?

Spaceweasel
27 January 2013, 1117
I know that Noah had made mention of a duplicatable conversion package. I like the idea of a component set and a set of CAD plans to machine the required mounts. Sort of a plug-and-play set up for the DIY conversion, and then perhaps if you had the entrepreneurial bug you could set up shop in Anytown, USA (or Einerstadt, DE) and build conversions / sell packages.

While I love the idea of reusing an OEM chassis, I hate conversions that are indistinguishable from the ICE they were based on. Airtech used to offer a custom body for a GSXR that would completely change the look - http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/suzuz/GSXR_HORNET.htm

lugnut
27 January 2013, 1157
something i don't get here Ted, you say replacing his AC20, but then why:
- AC20: about 25 kgs, 100 Nm, 37 kw, 180mm Diam, 330 mm long
- AC24LS: 40 kgs, 87 Nm, 35 kw, 244mm diam, 345mm long

Am I missing something here ?

He has like 100 of the AC24LS motors from the Azure auction he wants to sell ;-)

teddillard
27 January 2013, 1431
Yeah, that (so the price is more than right) and that sheet apparently is running a totally underpowered controller. I'm not really sure what it should be rated at, but I'm pretty certain it's more than an AC20, or even AC35 for that matter. And no, I have no idea what I'm going to end up doing with it. :rolleyes:

teddillard
27 January 2013, 1433
See? Yellow.

http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/newimages/hornetbabe.jpg

Oh yeah, yellow on the bike too. :D

mcf12
27 January 2013, 1508
Spaceweasel, I agree on looking too own. Ryca guys were genius in finding a racer underneath the savage cruiser: http://www.rycamotors.com/.

Maybe there's another few cool frames that let people do a few different looks off each.

Spaceweasel
27 January 2013, 1512
I agree on the Ryca, I was looking for a cheap Savage when I came across the frame for my elmoto build - didn't think to combine those thoughts at the time...

podolefsky
27 January 2013, 1559
Here's how I would describe my dream bike: take a Ducati Monster (preferably a 99-00 M900) and swap in the Mission R's drive system. 14 kWh, 160 Hp, one of the best looking street bikes ever (IMO). Done.

And yes, they come in yellow.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/Ducati%20Monster%20900ie%2001%20%202.jpg

Spaceweasel
27 January 2013, 1631
Make it an s2 and I'm in (single sided swing arms are sexxxxy)4060

podolefsky
27 January 2013, 1646
Ooh - yeah an S2 or S4 will work. Just as long as it has a classic round headlight.

__Tango
27 January 2013, 1735
Hate to spoil the monster party, but i vote for a sportbike. :) R6, R1, CBR, etc... Energica even.

__Tango
27 January 2013, 1812
Airtech used to offer a custom body for a GSXR that would completely change the look - http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/suzuz/GSXR_HORNET.htm

That kit is nice!

podolefsky
27 January 2013, 1817
That's fine...the fairings come off easily enough ;)

Spaceweasel
28 January 2013, 1712
Being the newbie here, I feel that I have the latitude to ask the evil question:

Transmission?
:cool:

jonescg
28 January 2013, 1734
We've already said money is no issue here, so we'll just buy the most powerful motor we can fit in the frame. Ipso facto, no transmission :D

Nuts & Volts
28 January 2013, 1850
I do not think a transmission is needed either.

I want to propose that the controller is the first component to select. The controller will define your battery voltage, motor power, motor wind, and a tricky packaging dilemma in some cases
I would choose from these below if money was not an issue.

Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3

Not sure 800V is a great level for a commuter. So on a street bike I would use a MC600. If I was making a dedicated race machine or had experience with a 800V system I would choose the Sevcon Size 10. Actually the Mission Motors might be better for the race bike as well cuz 300kW might not be useful unless you have a 30kWh battery pack.

I would choose the Mission Motors MC600 for my dream bike.

liveforphysics
28 January 2013, 1912
I do not think a transmission is needed either.

I want to propose that the controller is the first component to select. The controller will define your battery voltage, motor power, motor wind, and a tricky packaging dilemma in some cases
I would choose from these below if money was not an issue.

Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3

Not sure 800V is a great level for a commuter. So on a street bike I would use a MC600. If I was making a dedicated race machine or had experience with a 800V system I would choose the Sevcon Size 10. Actually the Mission Motors might be better for the race bike as well cuz 300kW might not be useful unless you have a 30kWh battery pack.

I would choose the Mission Motors MC600 for my dream bike.


I wouldn't even ride a home-brew bike at >350vdc. To do very high voltage systems correctly it takes insane attention to detail in every connection point and weather-proofing and creep distances, and then you can still die a lame death just with a single mistake working on it, or even no mistake but a contactor you counted on disconnecting for service welds closed inside or something.

For the ~100hp range, I would go with a pair of Sevcon size6's in master/slave configuration (which they are able to do). Then you can stick with a ~100v-ish system, and when you touch things by mistake, you get tickled and laugh about it rather than spontaneous death.

Nuts & Volts
28 January 2013, 1937
I wouldn't even ride a home-brew bike at >350vdc. To do very high voltage systems correctly it takes insane attention to detail in every connection point and weather-proofing and creep distances, and then you can still die a lame death just with a single mistake working on it, or even no mistake but a contactor you counted on disconnecting for service welds closed inside or something.

For the ~100hp range, I would go with a pair of Sevcon size6's in master/slave configuration (which they are able to do). Then you can stick with a ~100v-ish system, and when you touch things by mistake, you get tickled and laugh about it rather than spontaneous death.

Point taken...to each his own in a way thou. I had access to a 300V 100kW controller so I took the opportunity. And believe me I have worked on one of the most sketchy 400V packs that ever was, so I don't take your concerns lightly.

Two Sevcon Size 6 mated to a LV EMRAX motor would be a pretty sweet setup for about $7000 in parts and under 50lbs...

jonescg
28 January 2013, 2247
Proper planning resolves most high voltage safety concerns. Elegant design, modular assembly, multiple points of isolation and lots of physical separation of live wires; all constitutes a safe high voltage pack.

Unfortunately the best power comes from higher voltages. Granted, 700 V is a lot, and I would much prefer to work on 350 V but some motors don't come in that configuration.

So in deciding which controller to go for with the dream bike, we need to consider the practicalities of a battery to suit. We're aiming for close to 14 kWh on board? Assuming the best NMC cells, you are going to hit a physical limit based on their capacity. At 40 Ah, you would be looking at 350 V (96s). Getting it to fit in the most volumetricly efficient shape while satisfying all isolation requirements won't be easy.

__Tango
29 January 2013, 0036
Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3

Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?

Also, wouldn't it be better to pick a motor/ controller package instead of just a controller?

teddillard
29 January 2013, 0233
Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?

Ditto on that for the transmission conversation. Besides idealogical issues, you just can't get a sensible transmission, which would be in the 2-3speed range.

I agree, let's settle on the controller, then motor combo first.

Nuts & Volts
29 January 2013, 0749
Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?

Also, wouldn't it be better to pick a motor/ controller package instead of just a controller?

They can all be purchased direct through the manufacturers. You just have to have enough money. The Rinehart can also be purchased through New Eagle. The Mission Motors controller is probably a little bit harder to come by. It's a matter of can you get in contact with the right people and can you show them that you really want it. Price range is from $6k to close to $12k for the controllers I listed.

It does make sense to pick a controller and motor package, but these controllers can all be tuned to a specific motor. That's may not be cheap or easy in all cases. The Rinehart already works with about 20 different AC motors. The Sevcon has been tuned to the YASA motors. I don't know much about the other two thou. Basically it's doable.

Anyone have any other thoughts on possible controllers? I think we want a 150kW controller even if we have a 100kW motor. This will allow you to widen the power/torque curves. This in a way can eliminate the need for a transmission (or accel/top speed compromises). I can explain this more if people are interested.

Spaceweasel
29 January 2013, 2151
I think some interesting questions are raised here. Rather than starting with any one component, I'd like to hear some thoughts as to the best (available to mortals) components in each category, and why.
Best frame for an elmoto conversion?
Best motor?
Best controller?
Best battery?
Best display?

podolefsky
29 January 2013, 2242
Best color?

Nuts & Volts
29 January 2013, 2258
I think some interesting questions are raised here. Rather than starting with any one component, I'd like to hear some thoughts as to the best (available to mortals) components in each category, and why.
Best frame for an elmoto conversion?
Best motor? -
Best controller?
Best battery?
Best display?

Best frame for an elmoto conversion? - CBR1000rr, wide open frame, slightly less curvy than other frames. Room to modify swingarm, prior experience
I think this is hard to determine. Or a Ducati 900
Best motor? - EMRAX UHP - http://www.enstroj.si/News/emraxuhp.html highest power to weight, highest power to volume
Best controller? - Mission Motors MC600, highest power to weight, highest power to volume, moderate voltage level
Best battery? - EIG 40AH cells or GEB 11Ah racing car battery (http://www.gebattery.com.cn/geb/EN/ProductList.asp?SortID=143&SortPath=0,134,143,)
Best display? - Write an Android app and send bluetooth data to it

These are the top choices IMHO
Motors - EVO, YASA, EMRAX
Controllers - Mission, TM4, Rinehart, Sevcon
Batteries - EIG, Kokam, or high quality direct from China

Hugues
30 January 2013, 0437
Best frame for an elmoto conversion? - CBR1000rr, wide open frame, slightly less curvy than other frames. Room to modify swingarm, prior experience
...

oh, i must comment on this one now. In the Best Frame Category, enough volume to accomodate all our gear is surely scoring points. And on this criteria, the HPU frame i'm working on is difficult to beat.

Very easy to install 10kwh of GBS batteries (which are not that high energy density) in a very simple configuration, with fat double-tubes at the bottom. One can probably fit in 15kwh with a little imagination and higher energy density available today on the market.

Then a bulky AC-20 fits right in inside the frame, spot on the swingarm pivot axis. Close to a dream :p

And yes, I understand volume cannot be the only parameter to declare the best frame.



4067

liveforphysics
30 January 2013, 1132
Proper planning resolves most high voltage safety concerns. Elegant design, modular assembly, multiple points of isolation and lots of physical separation of live wires; all constitutes a safe high voltage pack.



I disagree. Ever worked with 700V? (I know you're about to find out soon enough). It does terrible unpredictable things when combined with real-world weather/humidity/moisture etc. Water wicks up wire insulation clear from one end to the other. Rubber boots over terminal connections just hold and form wicked traces of water at the rubber to mating surface interface. Further, in these gap locations where water wicks up into place with capillary action, the air-exposed surface area to volume of water ratio is so low, you can leave it in a dry as a bone garage for 2 weeks after it got wet, and still have that wicked water bridge solidly in place waiting to kill you. Every last connection point and connector needs to have large bulky plastic insulation stand-offs designed to break-drip-connection paths. Every normal "open style" connector in the circuit, like big andersons (which are normally pretty nice for electric motorcycles) become an invitation to die anytime the circuit has any moisture on it, absorbed into the insulation protective fiber sleeve, or a dozen other crazy failure modes that normally wouldn't matter much when working with say 100v, because the penalty for this is a tickle or an "I think I felt it shock me a little bit when I plugged that connector in" when you're working with ~100v-ish systems, but when you're working with a 700v system, that same incident means fire-trucks and somebody doing CPR on your body that hopefully re-starts it's heart beating again soon etc. Nasty stuff happens at voltages that easily defeat the skins dielectric value and shock you with a decent path to your very conductive blood inside.

I've got some samples of automotive grade connectors rated for 700VDC at a few hundred amps. They are about 3" diameter about about 8" long with both halves mated, and have at least 3 different seals and pairs of inter-locking drip walls and deeply recessed pins with big plastic tips also taking up a bunch of space, and elaborate multi-walled insulation clamping/strain relief seals for the multiple insulation sleeve systems that will be used. The two halves have to slide together about a full inch and a half before the contacts actually even start to mate, so in the event you get arc-flashing it has multiple inter-locking plastic walls around it with the inner most wall to the pin being a stainless steel sleeve to attempt to safely handle/absorb tiny arc-flash energy without just breaking down the plastic from all the ozone and UV etc.

Even if I was making a drag bike to attempt to compete with top-fuel I wouldn't run higher than 300-400vdc. There is a point of diminishing returns where the extra effort and hassles of dealing with all the BS and hazards involved with higher voltages just make no sense even if the situation has some performance advantage offered by going higher.

Making battery and motor wires a little thicker is about a zillion times more attractive IMHO than trying to manage a ~150cells in series (which is no small feat of it's own), and then perpetually dealing with the ever-present electrocution risk every time you go to touch something on the bike.

You know I like you and your electric racing a LOT Dr. Jones. Please don't underestimate the risk involved in your project so we can keep you around doing awesome stuff rather than making some bad news story about how dangerous electric motorcycles kill even brilliant PhD experts trying to build them etc. I agree is likely possible to do successfully if you happen to be the most lucky guy in the world who never has a single bit of unexpected bad-luck with a surprise current/voltage path that wasn't expected, but do you think that describes your luck? I doesn't describe my luck.

teddillard
30 January 2013, 1454
oooh NOOOOOOOes lol

http://providence.craigslist.org/mcy/3555693498.html

Spaceweasel
30 January 2013, 1539
The frame is the cheap part of a Ducati. It's the suspension that'll kill you.

podolefsky
30 January 2013, 1609
The frame is the cheap part of a Ducati. It's the suspension that'll kill you.

Yeah, especially a 996. Right now there are fork legs on e-bay for $300/pair...no triples. Tanks alone are usually over $300. By the time you get all the stuff to have a roller you'll be well into the thousands.

Pre 2001 Monster 750s with high mileage can be found for under $2k. If you want a 996 or similar, good luck. I've never once seen a Ducati roller sans engine come up on CL...not that I wouldn't buy one in a heartbeat if I did.

On the other hand, I see GSX-Rs all the time. I guess that tells you who's blowing up engines, and who's had their bike parked in the garage 364 days of the year.

caseyLA
30 January 2013, 1645
If this turned into a real-world design project, and you wanted to use a Suzuki S40 chassis, we might be able to supply some parts and/or work out some heavy discounts. Of course, we also have a fab shop and can do fiberglass... maybe some retro-inspired, faired cafe racer type of build?

Just throwing it out there. I've been a long time lurker on this forum, and have been very inspired by the garage builders (much more so than the OEMs!).

-Casey from RYCA Motors

ZoomSmith
30 January 2013, 1759
I've been a long time lurker on this forum, and have been very inspired by the garage builders (much more so than the OEMs!).

Thanks for chiming in Casey!
RYCA is a great inspiration to us (garage builders) here.

jonescg
30 January 2013, 1810
Making battery and motor wires a little thicker is about a zillion times more attractive IMHO than trying to manage a ~150cells in series (which is no small feat of it's own), and then perpetually dealing with the ever-present electrocution risk every time you go to touch something on the bike.

I agree is likely possible to do successfully if you happen to be the most lucky guy in the world who never has a single bit of unexpected bad-luck with a surprise current/voltage path that wasn't expected, but do you think that describes your luck? I doesn't describe my luck.

Hi Luke,

I've described my decision making process a dozen times already, but for those who missed it I will do it gain. I did not opt for 700 V because I wanted to be able to use smaller wires. I arrived at 700 V because that was the only voltage which allowed me to use the most appropriate motor with the most appropriate controller for the power needs of my two vehicles (the bike and the car). If a 160 kW motor was able to be run at a lower voltage at the time I placed my order I would have used it, but 6 months ago this was the best combination I could put together that didn't involve complete unobtainium components.

All of the tram and trolley networks around the world using 700 V DC don't rely on luck. Orion make a BMS module capable of managing 180 cells - presumably because they expect people to use 180 cells? The TTXGP rules bumped the voltage limit from 500 V DC to 700 V DC, because they knew that the next generation of PMAC motors work better at these voltages. They even entertained 1000 V!

I appreciate your precautionary attitude, but if this attitude was more prevalent we'd never fly aeroplanes, ride motorbikes, vaccinate children or eat canned food.

400-500 V DC is perfect for a performance bike.

ZoomSmith
30 January 2013, 1838
I guess that tells you who's blowing up engines, and who's had their bike parked in the garage 364 days of the year.

Too true Noah!

liveforphysics
30 January 2013, 2015
Hi Luke,

I've described my decision making process a dozen times already, but for those who missed it I will do it gain. I did not opt for 700 V because I wanted to be able to use smaller wires. I arrived at 700 V because that was the only voltage which allowed me to use the most appropriate motor with the most appropriate controller for the power needs of my two vehicles (the bike and the car). If a 160 kW motor was able to be run at a lower voltage at the time I placed my order I would have used it, but 6 months ago this was the best combination I could put together that didn't involve complete unobtainium components.

All of the tram and trolley networks around the world using 700 V DC don't rely on luck. Orion make a BMS module capable of managing 180 cells - presumably because they expect people to use 180 cells? The TTXGP rules bumped the voltage limit from 500 V DC to 700 V DC, because they knew that the next generation of PMAC motors work better at these voltages. They even entertained 1000 V!

I appreciate your precautionary attitude, but if this attitude was more prevalent we'd never fly aeroplanes, ride motorbikes, vaccinate children or eat canned food.

400-500 V DC is perfect for a performance bike.

I'm friends with the folks making the rules for the TTXGP, them raising a voltage limit shouldn't be perceived as any form of relation to the safety of a higher voltage system in anyway.

How many times did you get a tickle from your previous bike build my friend? Stray voltages, caps not discharged in controllers, etc. They happen commonly when designing systems from scratch and building them and working on them and tuning them to work better etc. Maybe you're a guy who never has that happen to him, maybe I'm the only person careless enough to eat dozens of 100vdc shocks daily when wiring and working on EV systems. It's so natural for me I will just happily touch a ~100vdc pack and appreciate the mild tickle it gives. When I touch 250vdc, it's not fun anymore or a tickle, and it makes my heart flutter and my muscles cramp up and I try strongly to be very careful when working with voltage in that range, and if I had been working on 700vdc systems I likely wouldn't be posting.

But I know you did it because it leverages the present IGBT controller tech better to give higher performance potential. It's unrelated to the motor though, that motor could make identical power on 100v if it was wound with 1/7th the number of turns and had 7x larger phase lead cross-section. Voltage is like the necessary evil required to make current flow, the less of it you can afford to use to reach your power needs, the better off you're doing it and the happier long-term you're going to be IMHO.


Since you're an adult and you're set on it though, I do wish you nothing but love and the best of luck and I look forward to you kicking ass on it racing and showing me what a silly worry-wart I am about HV dangers.

lugnut
30 January 2013, 2219
How many times did you get a tickle from your previous bike build my friend? Stray voltages, caps not discharged in controllers, etc. They happen commonly when designing systems from scratch and building them and working on them and tuning them to work better etc. Maybe you're a guy who never has that happen to him,...

Maybe he is this same guy.
I had a plasma event yesterday. Not very proud of myself. Another one for the "don't do this when building an EV" list. I think the 700 volt bike is a bad idea. And I think the TTXGP are idiots for bumping up the limit.

podolefsky
30 January 2013, 2227
I think the 700 volt bike is a bad idea. And I think the TTXGP are idiots for bumping up the limit.

Yeah...cause going 180 mph on two wheels is totally safe as long as you're below 320V.

I get it...just sayin'.

jonescg
30 January 2013, 2343
I also don't think it's a great idea, but it was the best option for what I have in mind. I will whole-heartedly endorse 350 V as a good voltage to work with for a motorbike.

Oh, and a 50 volt arc flash with no burns, no sight loss and no shock is a salient reminder that a well designed, fully isolated battery pack is a good thing.

Anyway, back to the dream bike :D

teddillard
31 January 2013, 0242
... I've been a long time lurker on this forum, and have been very inspired by the garage builders (much more so than the OEMs!).

-Casey from RYCA Motors

Welcome Casey! Glad the thread brought you out of the... uh... garage? bushes? :D


...I guess that tells you who's blowing up engines, and who's had their bike parked in the garage 364 days of the year.

Oh NOah. I see you found my Snark Pills lol. Why you hatin' on the Duke owners? At any rate, yeah, unless I could convince my wife that this is a frame for her jetpack that I'm building I think this would put me over that line some of us have to tread. So as far as this particular CL listing, I think I'm safe.

The Duke as a dream build? Too pricey, then? I do like them just because you don't see them everywhere... I wonder if anyone has actually done an electric Duke build.

(edit: Where the hell have I been? http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1651)

Also, Jozzbike's Duke:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9QRBmHOPl70?list=UUGDtYdOzSSy8ApCdCWKeCXA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


REALLY interesting info (read: scary as ****) info on the voltage, Luke. Thanks. I seriously had no idea...

jonescg
31 January 2013, 0313
...And I think the TTXGP are idiots for bumping up the limit.

I don't want to divert this dream bike thread any further, but this point needs to be made. TTXGP bumped up the voltage limit in response to motor manufacturers. No manufacturer would change the way they make motors for a two-person organisation like TTXGP. There is simply no way you are going to make a bike go hard or fast on 150 volts. There are design and engineering ways to safely manage hazardous voltages, and they are being incorporated into my build.

Carry on Ted :D

teddillard
31 January 2013, 0426
... No manufacturer would change the way they make motors for a two-person organisation ...

I don't think it's a diversion. It's an important point to keep in mind when deciding on a build. ;)

mechanic
31 January 2013, 0847
There is simply no way you are going to make a bike go hard or fast on 150 volts.

Not true. Hard and fast = Watts, (watts is volts x amps) 1,000V x 100A will create the same motor output as 100V x 1,000A and thru gearing create the same rear wheel (drive) torque. Exactly! (almost)

There are differences, cable sizing/weight, back EMF at lower rpm (but almost pointless due to 10X amps/torque of the 1,000A/higher gearing solution) the biggest negative is heat and higher ratio gearing losses (of course not even assuming a 6 speed)

There are positives however; SAFETY, simpler BMS and more watts quicker (torque)

Most of the builds at this stage are very very sketchy, as are the organizations and handling of such equipment, on and off the track. Having anything over 300V-400v takes an already very dangerous scenario and pushes it into the realm of irresponsible.

Read up on the safety measures employed by F1 for the preservation of their own sport! Electric racing could benifit from some longer term planning/goals/standards. The moment a rider or marshal gets electrocuted from an elMoto doors will close fast and forever!

Nuts & Volts
31 January 2013, 0901
Gotta agree with mechanic to a degree. I know a team that is going to attempt to get close to 100kW out of a 96V system.

I think there is a need for HV systems thou for greater than 100kW systems. I also fully support anyone willing to push the limits of what currently is. Stay safe and have fun!

liveforphysics
31 January 2013, 1143
Not true. Hard and fast = Watts, (watts is volts x amps) 1,000V x 100A will create the same motor output as 100V x 1,000A and thru gearing create the same rear wheel (drive) torque. Exactly! (almost)

There are differences, cable sizing/weight, back EMF at lower rpm (but almost pointless due to 10X amps/torque of the 1,000A/higher gearing solution) the biggest negative is heat and higher ratio gearing losses (of course not even assuming a 6 speed)


The first sentence is true, the second sentence is almost right, but not quite.

You can make exactly identical to the 700v motor's performance by winding it with 1/7th the number of turns, and using 7x larger phase copper cross-section, and 7x larger cross section in phase leads. This makes for a motor that produces EXACTLY, the same torque, same power, same efficiency, same heat production per unit of power or torque produced, same powerband and RPM range, etc. No detectable differences in performance in any way.

The problem is in the controllers. It's kinda a point of diminishing returns with just paralleling mosfets to lower combined RdsOn losses in switching, or if you go to IGBT's so you're eating a substantial Vf of say 1.5v just to make the part conduct, and this voltage drop all becomes heat multiplied by the phase current. So, for an IGBT based controller that you have X amount of heat budget for that the packages can handle, you have the highest power capability by running voltage close to the ceiling of that switching technologies abilities for a given Vf drop you experience from using that switching technology.

My next bicycle build will be using 2x Sevcon gen4 size6's configured master-slave, and will be laying over 120rwhp, all on a battery with a mere 104vdc nominal. Sevcon has done 4x size 6 controllers in master/slave operation for applications making >200hp in heavy EV trucks running 100vdc battery systems.

Also, if you look at voltage power power output of the Tesla Model S performance package car that I thoroughly enjoyed driving a few nights ago, they are making over 100hp to the rear wheels per 90VDC of battery pack. And this is in an OEM optimized cost in cabling/busing/weatherproof connector expenses etc, so they have all the incentives to run as high of voltage as makes sense for a 415hp car, and they STILL are just running 375V, because they know going higher is just trading so much additional hassles and risk in exchange for saving a few pounds of copper.

Now, if your battery had to be say, on a 2 mile away tether from the bike, I would definitely make the decision to use higher voltages, perhaps even 1,600vdc or whatever the limits of efficient and robust IGBT switching technology available happened to be at that time. When the battery is 1-2ft away from the controller though... Give me non-insta-kill voltages to work with please, I will happily carry the extra 2lbs of copper needed with a smile.

podolefsky
31 January 2013, 1556
I like big fat cables...they look badass.

picaroon
31 January 2013, 1609
So how good would these gloves, boots and suit be at reducing the risk of high voltage? They may not be practical.....
407140724073
And something for the missus. Happy birthday honey, its a safety hook!
4074

This is the shops website, its interesting as the equipment is aimed at motor racing teams with KERS.
http://www.boddingtons-electrical.com/product.php?id=78

Boddingtons Electrical supply International Motor Racing Circuits and Teams with KERS Safety Rescue Hooks, KERS Electrical Safety Rubber Matting, KERS Insulating Rubber Gloves, KERS Dielectric Boots and KERS Insulating Shrouding. The FIA recommends compulsory use of insulated gloves to be worn by marshals and all workers who will be exposed to KERS systems. The high voltage of the fully charged KERS battery pack needs careful protection against electric shock – there is a lot of energy stored in the battery, which is at voltages that could cause severe injury if not handled responsibly

Might look a bit of a plonka at the race track tho in full attire
4075

protomech
31 January 2013, 1622
Reposting (and slightly reformulating) some thoughts from the 'Build or Buy' thread (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2780-Build-or-buy&p=35288&viewfull=1#post35288).

I'd like to target total ICE replacement. Charge time tolerance will vary from person to person.. Terry @ offthegrid is probably one extreme, where the "no electric unless I can charge in 5 minutes!" crowd are another extreme. I think 15 minutes of charging per 60 minutes of riding (freeway) is a good target.

For reference:

* Tesla Model S, 15-18 minutes charging per 1 hour freeway travel (Tesla Supercharger 100 kW)
* Nissan Leaf, 30-40 minutes charging per 1 hour freeway travel (CHAdeMO 48 kW)
* 2013 Zero S ZF11.4, 63 minutes charging per 1 hour freeway travel (CHAdeMO 10 kW)
* 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 4.4 hours charging per 1 hour freeway travel (J1772 3.5 kW)
* 2012 Zero S ZF9, 13 hours charging per 1 hour freeway travel (110v 1kW)

15 minutes of charging for 60 minutes of freeway means that we must charge at 4x the power rate we discharge at (speaking generally).

Most CHAdeMO stations offer up to 48 kW of charging power, at a maximum of 100A. So if we fully utilize CHAdeMO then we can discharge no more than 12 kW. As we drive our energy consumption lower, we either reduce our charging time further, allow us to use a smaller battery pack (and charge at the same miles charged/hour rate), or allow us to use the existing battery pack and charge at a faster rate.

* 2013 Brammo Empulse R 11.6 kW @ 70 mph
* 2013 Zero S 6.4 kW @ 55 mph, 9.8 kW @ 70 mph
* 2013 Zero XU 5.8 kW @ 55 mph, 9.8 kW @ 70 mph
* Lightning faired superbike 8.4 kW @ 70 mph (120 mile range from 12 kWh)
* Monotracer enclosed-faired MTE-150 8 kW @ 75 mph

I think the Lightning target is pretty good. Perhaps it could be improved upon a bit with a feet-first riding position and a lower saddle. Enclosed front wheel, replace the mirrors with rear-pointing cameras .. handful of options.

4x 8.4 kW means we need to charge at around 34 kW, or probably 340V 100A (see also concerns in this thread about HV packs). If safe high-rate charge acceptance is a primary concern (W/kg) then energy-density (Wh/kg) may be less of a concern. I think 90-120 minutes of max-range freeway riding would be adequate - so around 13-17 kWh would be fine. Say 15 kWh as an intermediate size: 150 miles @ 55 mph, 125 miles @ 70 mph. Charge rate around 2.5C. Probably significant active cooling required for the battery.

Note that slower riding will use somewhat less energy, though an aerodynamic heavy bike will benefit less from this than an unaerodynamic light bike. Suppose 55 mph uses 100 Wh/mile or 5.5 kW .. then our charging scenario is approximately 10 minutes of charging per 60 minutes of riding.

I envision three charging scenarios:

1. Touring - quick stop to stretch, shake out legs, piss, post to internet forums. 20 minute stop, charge 20-80%, gives an additional 110 miles @ 55 mph or 95 miles @ 70 mph.

2. Dinner or movie - 30A J1772 station could charge the bike 10-90% in 2 hours.

3. Overnight - full charge would require 12+ hours on 110V.

Obviously this is contingent upon a quick-charge DC charging network (CHAdeMO or SAE J1772 DC), which exists today only as a small set of CHAdeMO equipped routes.

But suppose the charging infrastructure exists. How would we use it?

Richard230
31 January 2013, 1639
Speaking of charging infrastructure, earlier this week I visited a new city parking garage in South San Francisco at around 10 am. The garage has three ChargePoint stations right next to the entry. In front of each space were parked a Prius and above each space was a sign saying use of the parking space and charging station was limited to 24 hours at a time. If I needed to use one of the stations, there is no telling how long I would have to wait for someone to return and drive their Prius off into the sunset so that I could access the facility. My guess is that they were commuters that work in the downtown area. As electric and hybrid vehicles continue to sell, I see that this problem is going to be more of an issue. Once someone is parked at a charging station how do you get them to move on once they are fully charged? And if you need to charge and keep moving to continue your trip, what do you do now?

The only solution that I see is to have a very fast charging system, like CHAdeMO and a payment system that makes you pay by the minute as long as you occupy the charging space.

teddillard
31 January 2013, 1700
On frames... it seems like there's very little difference between 600cc and 1000cc frames in terms of weight. Is this pretty accurate?

liveforphysics
31 January 2013, 1710
Just as a hypothetical, if SAE were to stop making absurd connectors in an effort to ruin/delay the viability/adoption of EVs, we could have parking lots similar to many very cold climate places, where every parking lot for stores and places has electrical outlets in front for block heaters.

Inside a J1772 box, there is nothing you need to charge. You would have the same thing just tapping the input electrical feed to the J1772 box, because it just passes useless AC for your vehicle to require turning into DC.

It's like if you pulled up at a gas station, and rather than offering you fuel in a state that is useful for your vehicle, they connect you to a hose supplying crude-oil, and then you were expected to have your own refinery to turn it into premium or diesel or whatever you needed, and they expected every vehicle to carry around there own refinery with them that has to be packaged on the vehicle and adds cost to every vehicle, and you're limited at the rate you can charge by the through-put of your mini-refinery you lug around with you.

I would say that would effectively END if not severely limit the adoption of gasoline vehicles if that was the case.

__Tango
31 January 2013, 1726
I'd like to target total ICE replacement. Charge time tolerance will vary from person to person.. Terry @ offthegrid is probably one extreme, where the "no electric unless I can charge in 5 minutes!" crowd are another extreme. I think 15 minutes of charging per 60 minutes of riding (freeway) is a good target.

Although i find this line of thought quite interesting, i don't actually think it's necessary for the dream bike thread. if you want faster charging, either put more powerful chargers on the bike or support CHADEMO. The Eltek 3000W charger is small enough, and Terry has shown that you can put multiple chargers on a bike to charger faster and faster.

Speaking of which, Terry IS is proving you can do a "no electric unless i can charge in 5 minutes" crowd that you can indeed find enough power fast enough. He's got 5 (last i checked) chargers on his bike, so he can do 9kW/hr. Meaning he can effectively do a full charge in less than an hour (er...that was before he had the 747 sized new packs put on his bike). :) If terry moves away from the DeltaQ and Elcons to Elteks, he'd gain a bunch of space on his bike (for more batteries!).

jonescg
31 January 2013, 1749
On frames... it seems like there's very little difference between 600cc and 1000cc frames in terms of weight. Is this pretty accurate?

The space isn't that different, but 600cc frames are definitely smaller (except the early 2000s GSXRs, they all shared the same frame). The difference is the thickness of the materials and the amount of meat in the corners, simply cause they are designed to support an extra 30 kg of tare weight.

__Tango
31 January 2013, 1801
So, making a broad generalization here...is it safe to say that if the conversion build is estimated to be close to the 600cc bike in weight, using a 600cc frame would be ok, but if the estimated weight was to be heavier, go with a 1000cc frame?

jonescg
31 January 2013, 1814
170 kg = 600 cc
205 kg = 1000 cc

Sounds good to me.

liveforphysics
31 January 2013, 1818
So, making a broad generalization here...is it safe to say that if the conversion build is estimated to be close to the 600cc bike in weight, using a 600cc frame would be ok, but if the estimated weight was to be heavier, go with a 1000cc frame?


Absolutely. The idea to have best results is to pick a bike that will end up weighing about what it was originally designed to weigh.

podolefsky
31 January 2013, 1904
The space isn't that different, but 600cc frames are definitely smaller (except the early 2000s GSXRs, they all shared the same frame). The difference is the thickness of the materials and the amount of meat in the corners, simply cause they are designed to support an extra 30 kg of tare weight.

Same with early-mid 90's gixxers. Added weight of the 1000/1100 was in the motor, rear wheel/tire, beefier suspension, a few other things like hydraulic clutch. Sometimes the smaller displacement is just a smaller bore in the same block. I think this was the case for the gixxer 600/750. Lower power let them cut weight in other places.

liveforphysics
31 January 2013, 1937
Same with early-mid 90's gixxers. Added weight of the 1000/1100 was in the motor, rear wheel/tire, beefier suspension, a few other things like hydraulic clutch. Sometimes the smaller displacement is just a smaller bore in the same block. I think this was the case for the gixxer 600/750. Lower power let them cut weight in other places.


Yep, they cut weight in places, and run lighter suspension springs etc on the 600's vs the 1000's in most bikes.

If you pick a chassis that is super light, and you do an electric conversion that turns out super light (hopefully right about the same weight), then your suspension is going to work well for you. If your conversion is going to weigh 100lbs more than the original gas bike the chassis was from, you're going to either just have suspension impossible to setup sag on correctly and it's going to handle like crap, or you spend a bunch of money on stiffer springs and possibly bigger brakes if you're an aggressive rider, and in the end you would have been much better off to just start with a chassis/suspension setup designed for carrying the amount of weight you're going to put on it.

podolefsky
31 January 2013, 2012
My 93 1100 weighed 509 dry. Converted, it's about 475. At first I thought the 1100 chassis was total overkill because my motor is only around 40 HP - the 1100 was about 150. But since the weight is close, and it's also distributed about the same, it handles really well. It would have been fine with a 750, probably a 600 too. Definitely not a 250.

Ted's bike might only have 10 miles of range, but I'll bet if he put in enough to go 100 mi (or, say, climb a "mountain" as they call it out east), it would ride like a pig.

liveforphysics
31 January 2013, 2041
Ted's bike might only have 10 miles of range,...

??? Whaaa?? Ted? 10miles?

teddillard
01 February 2013, 0240
Absolutely. The idea to have best results is to pick a bike that will end up weighing about what it was originally designed to weigh.

Right, exactly. And though I've always like the 600-sized bikes I saw that the R1 is only about 20lbs heavier than the R6, but gobs more HP. It wouldn't make sense IMO to buy an R6 for the weight savings, and I thought I read somewhere it was an identical frame. (Also, my SRX600 is only about 350lbs if I remember correctly, being a single. Only a wee bit heavier than my RD350, but same HP and TONS more torque. :D)


??? Whaaa?? Ted? 10miles?

lol yeah with (one of) the current pack(s). Remember when I trashed my pack and you told me to replace it? I rescued what I could and haven't put a new one together yet. I was able to climb Mt Washington (At an average grade of 12%, the Mount Washington Auto Road is steeper than Pikes Peak’s 7% and makes the same vertical climb of approximately 4700’, you west-coast mountain snobs you... lol) with what I have, though. :D

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603290_4720206802632_1604312332_n.jpg

It's an R5-RD350 frame, which originally was 325lbs. Right now with the "micro" pack it weighs about 225lbs, so I have about 100lbs of more room for the bigger packs. (remember, I have that modular pack switcheroo thing, with 2 module capacity). So about 100lbs before it is even back to stock weight, I figure about 150lbs before we get to "handling like a pig" range - thanks very much Noah :p).

If my math is correct, that's about 5 to 7kwh (of RC lipo) possible? I think I was aiming for 5kwh. The only thing that will go down is the acceleration, but I figure the top speed and 0-60 will be about the same as the original (modified) 350cc 2-stroke. With the frame loaded to original weight, I'm actually expecting it to handle a little better since the mods I made were all standard for the 325lb weight.

Wait, huh. At 325lbs, maybe 100mph top speed, 0-60 in 5 sec or so and a 60mile range in a 1972 replica Yamaha TD3? I may already be building my dream bike... :D :D :D

...except it makes my ass look fat:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66547_10151043876580718_1383415740_n.jpg

protomech
01 February 2013, 0649
They get oddly specific in their requirements : )
http://mtwashingtonautoroad.com/drive-yourself/vehicle-limits/

Jaguar, Saturn and Sterling autos with automatic transmissions must show a “1″ or “L” or “S” on the shifter to be allowed on the Auto Road. Transmissions showing an “S” must demonstrate that this shifter will allow the transmission to be locked into 1st gear. Model year 2009 and earlier Honda and Acura vehicles must meet the same requirements as described above. Model year 2010 Honda and Acura vehicles are all allowed regardless of transmission type.
What do they have against Sterling automobiles, huh?

protomech
01 February 2013, 0850
Although i find this line of thought quite interesting, i don't actually think it's necessary for the dream bike thread. if you want faster charging, either put more powerful chargers on the bike or support CHADEMO. The Eltek 3000W charger is small enough, and Terry has shown that you can put multiple chargers on a bike to charger faster and faster.
CHAdeMO and fast AC charging are both important. I HOPE in a couple of years that CHAdeMO and SAE J1772 DC have been sorted out, and that fast DC + J1772 level 2 7kW chargers are the norm.

However, it's not enough IMO to just say CHAdeMO and done. Because shipping CHAdeMO chargers typically are limited to 100-125A, a 100V battery pack like on the 2013 Zero bikes can only charge at 10-12 kW, regardless of what rate the batteries can accept.

Most J1772 plugs are 30A. So 7 kW AC is the best you can expect from them. That's not good enough to be a complete ICE replacement IMO - provides a full-loop trip mph of 30 mph or thereabouts: 1 hour @ 55-60 mph followed by an hour of charging.

IME with gas vehicles and long trips, my average trip speed given 70 mph interstates (and limited speeding) is around 60 mph with some stops, or 65 mph with limited stops.

At a on-road pace of 70 mph with 60 minutes of riding followed by 15 minutes of charging, your average speed is 56 mph. Over a 10 hour 600 mile trip with some stops this is around 30 minutes additional (+5% trip time): a very reasonable compromise vs ICE. 7 kW AC charging on the same aerodynamic bike would take around 21 hours, or 11 hours additional (+110% trip time). 600 miles with charging from CHAdeMO at a maximum rate of 10 kW would take around 17 hours, or 7 hours additional (+70% trip time).

Note that while you get the fastest trip speeds by discharging at or near your charge rate, you get closer to ICE trip times as a percentage as the trip slows down. The same 600 mile trip @ 55 mph would take around 12h with ICE, or 12h20m with 34 kW CHAdeMO. 34 kW CHAdeMO is my target rate for freeway travel, but I think you could get away with 15-20 kW if you toured at 40-55 mph.

I think you have to design for the charging infrastructure being rolled out - 30A (wall-side) J1772 and 100A (battery-side) CHAdeMO. To get ICE-like freeway touring speed you require large (10+ kWh) battery packs designed to accept high-rate CHAdeMO charging (20+ kW minimum IMO .. which means 200+V) coupled with and significant aero improvement. IMO.

CHAdeMO is not sufficiently established in the US to permit touring, save on a very select number of routes. It's possible SAE J1772 DC will muddy the waters enough that CHAdeMO adoption is delayed. But for purposes of a dream bike.. I'd like to imagine that the infrastructure develops in a timely fashion.


Speaking of which, Terry IS is proving you can do a "no electric unless i can charge in 5 minutes" crowd that you can indeed find enough power fast enough. He's got 5 (last i checked) chargers on his bike, so he can do 9kW/hr. Meaning he can effectively do a full charge in less than an hour (er...that was before he had the 747 sized new packs put on his bike). :) If terry moves away from the DeltaQ and Elcons to Elteks, he'd gain a bunch of space on his bike (for more batteries!).
He has/had 8 kW of chargers on his bike, 3x Delta-Q @ 1 kW each + 2x Elcon 2.5 kW chargers. It's clearly good enough for a motivated individual to travel cross-country, but it's not good enough IMHO for a convenient 600 mile daily trip. I think most people will fly when a road trip exceeds a day in length, unless the journey is the reason for the trip.

Spaceweasel
01 February 2013, 1500
I like the idea of designing/building for the charging system that exists today. This thread isn't "the elmoto dream infrastructure" :), if it were, I'd give Elon a call and have him grant us a license for supercharger connections.

teddillard
02 February 2013, 0312
They get oddly specific in their requirements : )
http://mtwashingtonautoroad.com/drive-yourself/vehicle-limits/

What do they have against Sterling automobiles, huh?

...not odd at all if you consider that the scary part is coming down. :O

mcf12
02 February 2013, 0642
Hey Casey! So psyched you've been hanging out. Y'all are inspiring me and others here!

Ted, Jonesy:

To chime in on the voltage stuff: I build in a garage where as much as I try to avoid it, my kids wander around. I have a three year old who will climbing my bikes and likes to stick things in between other things. There's a fine line between dreaming of a bike people could build in a dedicated off site garage and a bike people could build in an actual garage. I'd rather lean to the later.

Shout out to Casey and Ryan for thinking so carefully about making their kits accessible to basic garage context.

lugnut
02 February 2013, 1016
Ted, Jonesy:

To chime in on the voltage stuff: I build in a garage where as much as I try to avoid it, my kids wander around. I have a three year old who will climbing my bikes and likes to stick things in between other things.

Sounds a lot like the paddock at a TTXGP race.

__Tango
02 February 2013, 1122
Sounds a lot like the paddock at a TTXGP race.

Haha. It's even more funny 'cuz it's true. :)

liveforphysics
02 February 2013, 1313
Haha. It's even more funny 'cuz it's true. :)


Yes it is. Blows my mind sometimes, like the survival instinct traits have just been bred right out of much of the species.

__Tango
02 February 2013, 1512
Yes it is. Blows my mind sometimes, like the survival instinct traits have just been bred right out of much of the species.

Yeah, like building an electric bicycle that goes 100mph. ;)

jonescg
02 February 2013, 1927
Rest easy mcf, the battery is designed so you can't access high voltage stuff without really trying. As it stands, the only way you can access a high voltage is by disconnecting the two HV supply leads to the inverter and turning the key on (not possible unless you've unbolted the inverter first). Alternatively you could plausibly access high voltage by taking the tank cover off, finding the charge lead and going out of your way to stick a conductor into the finger-proof Andersons and then turning the key on.

And if you've made it this far despite all the warnings, you've probably already got your name on the Darwin Award waiting list.

Should I bring up gun control? Speed limits on Deals Gap? Kitchen knives? 19-year-olds behind the wheel of a V8 supercharged car? Nah, just play safe OK :D

mcf12
02 February 2013, 2033
:). The three year was getting pretty good at vacuuming metal shavings today. Barefoot.

liveforphysics
02 February 2013, 2043
Just be aware, when playing with high voltage, you don't have to look to access it. It looks to access you when you least expect it. Through each little seemingly totally unlikely surprise current path from a drip of water connecting some film of water under a rubber boot cover down to the heatsink of a controller or whatever, to the chassis, to whatever other chain of seemingly unlikely systems that can connect to make a current path, so you're leaning against the frame with your leg and go to pickup the charger connector with sweaty hands connecting the drip of water the spilled into the terminal from the condensation on the bottle of water you were drinking 2 minutes ago. Keeping 100v roughly contained where you want it can be tricky, keeping 700v contained is just painfully tedious to care for all the connection points and places you never imagined would become a current path. The little balance tap wire that chaffes a bit against an aluminum edge because it's not bundled quite snugly enough in the zip tie, and now you just made the chassis connected to some potential, and it's just waiting for you to discover that current path from the other side.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it my friend, just want to see you pay it the respect it deserves. It is not nearly as easy of an animal to contain as the voltages you've been working with earlier, where you're getting shocked 50times each time you work on it through various unexpected creative routes, but you never even happened to feel it, or thought you may be feeling a tickle but aren't sure you were really shocked etc. With 700v, that safety/tickle game is gone, and it's time to spend a few minutes thinking, perhaps even look at a schematic and draw a diagram so you can't get back-shocked through a pre-charge resistor you didn't expect was still in the circuit before you begin working or whatever. Perhaps even write up a pre-working-on-bike checklist you make yourself go through where you verify twice each safety measure/precaution has been taken, initialed in a check-box, and then verify with your meter redundantly before even so much as touching a tool to a post. Then get insulated tools to use as well. Working on a 26,500VAC switch gear feed to a 2MW 480VAC step-down transformer, the insulated tool handle combined with the little fluke high voltage detector alarm thingy saved my life, as even though we had the transformer feed locked out and tagged out (LOTO), and we had just disconnected and LOTO the incoming utility switch gear feeder (26.5kV feeder), somebody else had incorrectly re-routed power from a different 480vac transformer earlier in the process and was back-feeding that transformer through just some tiny little tap used for a power factor correction and surge monitoring circuit with tiny 10awg wires at 480vac nearly melting down just trying to supply the mere core-loss of this transformer, and generating ~25kV backwards to the side that I was working on and had believed was powered down. That's when the little double or triple redundant safety checks, good insulated tools (and we wore arc-flash suits of course) all come in handy, because Murphy finds a way to get that HV to you in my experience.

Biff
02 February 2013, 2241
It seems everyone here has a dream to make a bike that has huge range, mega power. I would prefer to have something with 5kWh of battery, 30kW peak power, 125 two stroke race bike like body position / handling , 200lbs weight, swappable battery modules (ride all day at a track with a couple chargers and spare modules), and a frame / bodywork that handles crashes well and is cheap to repair / replace.

with 5kWh of battery and a nice aerodynamic bike, you would have a real range of 50 miles, which is plenty for me.
With 200lbs, 30kW of power, and 80mph top speed I would not want a gearbox
I much prefer riding on kart tracks than on full size tracks. sliding across the track on my back on a kart track is much more fun than praying I don't screw something up while going 80mph thorough a corner on a full size track. I like to push myself, and I would rather find my limits at 40mph than at 80mph.
A light and quick bike is much more fun than a fast and heavy bike on the roads I ride.

Even if money was no object, I would opt for a light and quick bike (5kWh, 30kW, 80mph), rather than a 20kWh 200kW bike that can do 200mph.

-ryan

jonescg
02 February 2013, 2321
Then get insulated tools to use as well.

Way ahead of you there. $1500 for a set isn't cheap, but worth every cent.

Biff - I kind of agree too. But I went through the same process when I bought my Blackbird. I started with a CB250, then a GS500, then a CB750, then a CBR1100. Each bike just didn't have the poke I was after, but I was most happy with the power and versatility of the Blackbird - I've ridden across Australia twice, one time with my missus on the back. I then took it to a track day at Phillip Island (bucket list check!) and rode it all the way home.

Unfortunately at this stage of EVs, we need to come up with something at least half as good as a similarly priced ICE bike, simply cause that's the benchmark that's been set. If you trade range for fun, then you can still have your cake but only eat the icing ;)

If your dream bike is a lightweight track-hack, then go for it! Two wheels good I say :D

teddillard
03 February 2013, 0420
It seems everyone here has a dream to make a bike that has huge range, mega power. I would prefer to have something with 5kWh of battery, 30kW peak power, 125 two stroke race bike like body position / handling , 200lbs weight, swappable battery modules (ride all day at a track with a couple chargers and spare modules), and a frame / bodywork that handles crashes well and is cheap to repair / replace.

with 5kWh of battery and a nice aerodynamic bike, you would have a real range of 50 miles, which is plenty for me.
With 200lbs, 30kW of power, and 80mph top speed I would not want a gearbox
I much prefer riding on kart tracks than on full size tracks. sliding across the track on my back on a kart track is much more fun than praying I don't screw something up while going 80mph thorough a corner on a full size track. I like to push myself, and I would rather find my limits at 40mph than at 80mph.
A light and quick bike is much more fun than a fast and heavy bike on the roads I ride.

Even if money was no object, I would opt for a light and quick bike (5kWh, 30kW, 80mph), rather than a 20kWh 200kW bike that can do 200mph.

-ryan

(...except it makes your ass look fat :rolleyes:)

I do agree, on a personal level, but I think to hit a more widely acceptable target we should aim at the 600cc Sport bike level. I think a 100mph/100mile range is a respectable and achievable goal though I know it doesn't match up with what your average 600 ICE bike can do.

So yeah. Are we ready to decide on a frame? :cool: I vote for the CBR 1000. ;)

jonescg
03 February 2013, 0551
Ted, I LOVE the CBR1000 RR - any year; it rocks. From the original 945 to today's crop of superbikes, they are all just the most perfect bikes to ride.

BUT - they don't have the frame capacity to do what we're trying to do. Maybe if you took a nice ~100 kW peak induction motor from Tesla's scrapbook you could come up with a motor that fits inside the gearbox section of the frame with plenty of room for batteries, but it's a big ask.

If you could do a custom frame with all of the identical geometry you might be able to make it work?

teddillard
03 February 2013, 0559
hmmm. Well, for the sake of discussion, here's a naked CBR (2012):

http://image.superstreetbike.com/f/sport-bike-news/new-2012-honda-cbr1000rr-officially-released/33919514/2012-honda-cbr1000rr.jpg

...and have we figured out what we're trying to do already? LOL!

Nuts & Volts
03 February 2013, 0802
...BUT - they don't have the frame capacity to do what we're trying to do. Maybe if you took a nice ~100 kW peak induction motor from Tesla's scrapbook you could come up with a motor that fits inside the gearbox section of the frame with plenty of room for batteries, but it's a big ask.

If you could do a custom frame with all of the identical geometry you might be able to make it work?

False.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Buckeye%20Current/20130126_182034_zps01f0a395.jpg
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Buckeye%20Current/20130126_182054_zps79b7931d.jpg
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Buckeye%20Current/20130126_182113_zpsf81d64ab.jpg

16.2 kWh of AEE cells, which does not have the most optimal layout for our needs fit with general easy. If we were doing TTXGP primarily we would have only use maybe 14kWh. We also looked at using 17.5kWh of another cell, but was took much risk to take on with building a pack. Those cells are about 50% more volumetric-ally efficient.

EIG cells would have been about 20% more efficient to package. So about 16kWh of those would have fit nice and easily (but we didnt have funds for those).
I can draw up some CAD, we have the CBR frame in CAD, if ya don't believe me haha :D

teddillard
03 February 2013, 0813
...
I can draw up some CAD, we have the CBR frame in CAD, if ya don't believer me haha :D

Draw that bitch up, yo. :p

Spaceweasel
06 February 2013, 2201
Something to add to the dream list: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/06/can-inductive-charging-save-the-ev/

Skahle
07 February 2013, 0007
Something to add to the dream list: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/06/can-inductive-charging-save-the-ev/

I've been watching this technology for a while...once Qualcomm bought Halo it moved fast. I saw their 3kw charge rate dune buggy and 7 kw charge rate Rolls-Royce, but they have a 20-23kw charge rate system on a race car that could hit your timing requirements nicely.
http://www.slashgear.com/qualcomm-halo-inside-the-tech-of-the-worlds-largest-wireless-car-charging-trial-07255855/

jonescg
07 February 2013, 0129
False.
16.2 kWh of AEE cells, which does not have the most optimal layout for our needs fit with general easy. If we were doing TTXGP primarily we would have only use maybe 14kWh. We also looked at using 17.5kWh of another cell, but was took much risk to take on with building a pack. Those cells are about 50% more volumetric-ally efficient.

EIG cells would have been about 20% more efficient to package. So about 16kWh of those would have fit nice and easily (but we didnt have funds for those).
I can draw up some CAD, we have the CBR frame in CAD, if ya don't believe me haha :D

I've not been happier to be wrong :D What year model was that chassis Kyle?
It's the cinch at the bottom nearest the seat that makes things tight. Gixxers are right fatties, while the CBS has more of an hour-glass figure. Are you mounting the cells as a single drop-in or as multiple packs? I guess I've held this aversion to CBRs as donor bikes because I've always planned for a single drop-in pack.

teddillard
07 February 2013, 0332
So it's settled then? :D

The inductive charging is cool, and I actually did some science-fair type experimenting with it. The EV1 had an inductive charge connection.
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/cordless-charging-at-google-a-new-idea-hint-no/

I'm not sure it's worth the weight on a motorcycle, and you still need a plug for charging in non-inductive locations... but this is a dream bike, no?

Now, for my own personal Grail: I can haz Modular Batteriez? :p

45lb packs that are easily removable. I'm not sure what voltage you've decided on, but a 36V 30ah (1.08kwh) pack of RC lipo would be around that weight, and configurable for my 72V (nom) 60-90ah (personal) dream bike.

Nuts & Volts
07 February 2013, 0837
I've not been happier to be wrong :D What year model was that chassis Kyle?
It's the cinch at the bottom nearest the seat that makes things tight. Gixxers are right fatties, while the CBS has more of an hour-glass figure. Are you mounting the cells as a single drop-in or as multiple packs? I guess I've held this aversion to CBRs as donor bikes because I've always planned for a single drop-in pack.

I think you're going to have the same issues with either bike because both have to fit the same size riders and "same" size engines. They are different because of different design approaches and different manufacturing. Basically you can make either work with the same components as long as you tailor the design to the bike (ie don't design a battery then pick the bike. Our model is a 2006 CBR1000RR model. We will have 4 subpacks that fit on different "shelves". 2 are identical, another smaller, and another little bit larger one. I'll get a CAD picture soon that will help illustrate how we're making it work.

I think induction charging would be cool, but that system may add a lot of weight and volume to a motorcycle. It takes me 10secs to plug into the wall :D and a motorcycle has a very high ground clearance so inductive charging may be difficult.

Yes I think modular batteries of a sort will be in the cards. It's a compromise between making a rigid structure and making easy access to swap out packs. I think a 5min swap is easy to do, but a 1min or less swap might be tricky. Also I'd have to say no RC LiPo on my dream bike, at least not the hobbyking stuff. I love it and use it but EIG and others fit my needs much better.

teddillard
07 February 2013, 1004
Yes I think modular batteries of a sort will be in the cards. It's a compromise between making a rigid structure and making easy access to swap out packs. I think a 5min swap is easy to do, but a 1min or less swap might be tricky. Also I'd have to say no RC LiPo on my dream bike, at least not the hobbyking stuff. I love it and use it but EIG and others fit my needs much better.

Yeah, no to RC lipo, though with a modular battery you could swap out whatever chemistry you... uh... dream about. :cool:

With small packs, the structure and release mechanism get a lot easier. Rather than think one huge pack, think 6 smaller ones.

podolefsky
07 February 2013, 1303
The inductive charging is cool, and I actually did some science-fair type experimenting with it. The EV1 had an inductive charge connection.
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/cordless-charging-at-google-a-new-idea-hint-no/

I'm not sure it's worth the weight on a motorcycle, and you still need a plug for charging in non-inductive locations... but this is a dream bike, no?


I have a Magne Charger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magne_Charge) in my garage, bought for an S-10 EV project that fell through. It's really cool - but pretty useless without the charge port. If I could make it work, I'd totally outfit my bike to use it for fast charging.

Spaceweasel
07 February 2013, 1328
Yeah, no to RC lipo, though with a modular battery you could swap out whatever chemistry you... uh... dream about. :cool:

With small packs, the structure and release mechanism get a lot easier. Rather than think one huge pack, think 6 smaller ones.

I don't like the idea of toting six individual packs up to my office to charge. 2 seems manageable, though.

teddillard
07 February 2013, 1457
I don't like the idea of toting six individual packs up to my office to charge. 2 seems manageable, though.

6 individual modules doesn't mean you can't have the usual onboard charger, right?

Spaceweasel
07 February 2013, 1558
The scenario I'm seeing is that the only time you would pull the packs is when you don't have access to a plug, so you take them into your hotel/friends house/office to charge. Or did you envision something else?

teddillard
07 February 2013, 1605
Totally. Something else that is... I see having two complete packs, one always charged, ready to swap out. Three or more bikes of various voltages which can accept packs in different combinations. Even lawn tools and tractors that can use the same packs.

And unicorns.

And jetpacks.

(laugh if you want... but that's exactly what I'm planning for the R5e, the scooter, the dirt bike, the tractor and the lawn mower. Everything running off a 36V 30ah pack, or combination of several. Charged with my solar array. It's also the strategy that DeWalt and Black and Decker see for their power tools.)

Spaceweasel
07 February 2013, 1610
I love my Ryobi powertools, the first I know of to have interchangeable battery packs. Now I'm thinking how cool they would be if some of the tools took multiple packs...

teddillard
07 February 2013, 1637
Exactly. Try that with a gas bike! :D

Funny story. Charles MacArthur and Mike Corbin and I are working on the relaunch of the Alternative Energy Regatta at Mt. Washington this summer. Charlie has Corbin Sparrow SN #0001. He wants to run it with lithium rather than the original lead. The plan? Run the R5e up the hill, recharge the packs, pull them out and pop them into Charlie's Sparrow. BAM!

liveforphysics
07 February 2013, 1925
So it's settled then? :D

The inductive charging is cool, and I actually did some science-fair type experimenting with it. The EV1 had an inductive charge connection.
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/cordless-charging-at-google-a-new-idea-hint-no/

I'm not sure it's worth the weight on a motorcycle, and you still need a plug for charging in non-inductive locations... but this is a dream bike, no?

Now, for my own personal Grail: I can haz Modular Batteriez? :p

45lb packs that are easily removable. I'm not sure what voltage you've decided on, but a 36V 30ah (1.08kwh) pack of RC lipo would be around that weight, and configurable for my 72V (nom) 60-90ah (personal) dream bike.



Inductive charging is just like pissing a portion of your energy away, while taking up more space and adding weight and cost (to charger and vehicle), with the singular benefit being avoiding a lethal shock if you're plugging into a 300-400vdc battery in a rainstorm or whatever on a setup that doesn't have contactors that stay open until the connector is fully mated (how most modern charge connectors work). If it's your dream bike, put a DC charge port on it, the entire concept of AC power input to chargers onboard a vehicle is so doing it wrong if you're looking for something other than a slow overnight charge IMHO (not saying slow overnight charges don't have there place, it's what I use 95% of the time, but if you want to fast charge on your dream bike, DC is the only path that makes a shred of sense).


If you're just making a ripper play bike so you don't need weather proofing and UN 38.3 conformance etc, you should be able to get damn near 4kWh in a 45lbs box if you're willing to use sketchy cobalt oxide cells with no intrinsic safety compromises (the best RC packs are exceeding 200Wh/Kg assembled these days). It will just be worn out in a year of daily use, if it doesn't burn your house down first is the only downside. :-)

teddillard
08 February 2013, 0646
Just found this on the EIG page.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/479983_10200689143290491_792875694_n.jpg

http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/module.htm

Kyle's favorite batts. In a module. :D

Nuts & Volts
08 February 2013, 0734
Apparently you never pay attention to my build!

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Electric%20R6/2011-12-20_15-11-31_667.jpg

Those are older EIG modules (from 2008 or so). 21s1p is about 24lbs and about 9" X 5.5" X 7.9" I ran 4 of them and have enough to run 5. They rock, but I need to test the power capabilities of them some more soon!

Actual configuration in the bike

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Electric%20R6/DSC04636.jpg

teddillard
08 February 2013, 1055
well alRIGHTY then! :D Now you just haz to make them de-moveable...

Nuts & Volts
08 February 2013, 1147
well alRIGHTY then! :D Now you just haz to make them de-moveable...

Well right now, if I have a nice lift and space I can swap out the whole 21s4p, 115lb battery in about 2minutes with practice. You could then add a little bit more metal and a 50lb, 21s2p unit could be pulled out in 1 more minute. Thou I don't have more batteries to swap in so it's a mute point for me at the moment haha.

But dream bike wise, it isn't as hard as I originally stated. But I did make some compromises on my pack.

Biff
08 February 2013, 2358
With the modular battery concept, you could have both, a 5kWh light weight quick bike, or a 15kWh high speed heavy bike, simply by adding / removing 200lbs of battery (and probably changing some gearing too). I wonder if there is a company producing 50lb , 2.5kWh modular batteries.

Modularity comes at a cost. Difficulty with packaging, price, weight etc.

Since this is a Dream Bike, is there no cost associated, or is there a target price? that will really limit your choices.

on page 9, Teddillard said "I think a 100mph/100mile range is a respectable and achievable goal though I know it doesn't match up with what your average 600 ICE bike can do. " It seems that both the 2013 Brammo Empulse and Zero S both come very close to fitting that goal. What is it about those bikes that doesn't fit your "Dream" .. I know this takes us back to the topic that spurred on this discussion "Build or Buy". I am very interested to see how this design based on the proposed 1000RR stacks up vs the bike you could create starting with a Brammo or Zero.

-ryan

teddillard
09 February 2013, 0434
With the modular battery concept, you could have both, a 5kWh light weight quick bike, or a 15kWh high speed heavy bike, simply by adding / removing 200lbs of battery

Exactly. It all depends on how the modules are wired into the bike. You could configure the module stations so you can simply add range. Say you need a 50 mile highway range for your daily commute, then on the weekends you want to shed some weight and kick the twisties. Or go to the track. Like that.


What is it about those bikes that doesn't fit your "Dream" ... I am very interested to see how this design based on the proposed 1000RR stacks up vs the bike you could create starting with a Brammo or Zero.

For me anyway, they're both butt-ugly. I also hate the feel of the stuff like the instruments and mirrors and things. (If god wanted us to have pointy mirrors, he wouldn't have made round glass. Wait. WUT?) :D Neither of them represent a state-of-the-art frame (thus handling) as the GSXR or CBR does. Sorry. The technology is build for the most general audience, for sale. We're trying (I think) to build a design that is less of a compromise. What we, as enthusiasts, not manufacturers, would build if we had the chance.

And neither of them have hot-swap battery modules. :D :D :D

I'm VERY interested to see what we come up with here. I frankly think we have the most amazing pool of design talent on the planet here, as far as electric motorcycles goes. (Back when Brian was on regularly, I, and a few others believe many of the Brammo systems came from this forum.) If Zero and Brammo and others are smart, they're reading this thread. But yeah... I think that's more for the "Build or Buy" thread.

Nuts & Volts
09 February 2013, 0939
...I wonder if there is a company producing 50lb , 2.5kWh modular batteries....

-ryan

Haha I see what you did there :rolleyes: :cool:

I also agree with your other points about the production bikes. I had never looked at it that way. I think this "dream bike" should still have a budget attached to it of sorts. It will give a little more accountability to some of the decisions/choices.

Spaceweasel
09 February 2013, 1354
On the budget front, batteries being the biggest single cost item of an elmoto, you could make range just a dollar figure question. If each pack is individually powerful enough for the performance goals, then additional packs simply become serial range extenders. 1 for your most basic entry level barhopper (lots of space left in the frame). 3 for regular commuter duty/canyon riding (full frame). 5 for day trips (saddlebags). 7 for all day touring (tankbag/tailbag areas).

I wouldn't want my riding performance hampered by lack of packs.

jonescg
09 February 2013, 1813
Actually my motor and inverter were over half the cost of my build. If I wanted to I could make batteries the other half, but I'll go a bit cheaper for now.

teddillard
10 February 2013, 0327
Apparently you never pay attention to my build!

So, um. Where the heck IS your build? I checked your blog, your facebook page... nuthin. Throw me bone, here. :rolleyes:

edit: Oh yeah. Nutshock2. http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?1906-Nutshock-V2-0-Electric-R6-Build Sorry, got all distracted by the 3D modeling stuff. :D

teddillard
11 February 2013, 0338
Best battery? - EIG 40AH cells or GEB 11Ah racing car battery (http://www.gebattery.com.cn/geb/EN/ProductList.asp?SortID=143&SortPath=0,134,143,)...

Batteries - EIG, Kokam, or high quality direct from China

So, Kyle. Why EIG? I'm looking into them more and they don't seem all that strong in terms of discharge rates. Is there something I'm missing? Is the manufacturer rating just conservative? Wait. Kokam too. What? I really hadn't looked into the specs for the high-priced spread in batteries until now. I'd just assumed lipo like Kokam was rated the same as the RC lipo. :confused:

For that matter, what's the discharge rate for the "NCM" chemistry Brammo uses?

I mean, yeah, I get the density and all, but 5/10C? Really?

oooooo mai haid hertz

jonescg
11 February 2013, 0438
Ted, if you have the megabux, you can take a punt with some of these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=24309

It's boasting the same energy density as EIG, but with at least 30C capability (65C... riiiight. 130C come off it! :D)

It probably doesn't have the cycle life of EIG but the other numbers certainly look impressive. I've bought one to test for myself. Not that I can fit it into my battery pack, but you could plausibly build modular packs from these guys as long as they sold them as individual cells.

What you get for $1 per Wh is QC. Seems to me the single biggest determinant of a cell's worth.

podolefsky
11 February 2013, 0906
So, Kyle. Why EIG? I'm looking into them more and they don't seem all that strong in terms of discharge rates. Is there something I'm missing? Is the manufacturer rating just conservative? Wait. Kokam too. What? I really hadn't looked into the specs for the high-priced spread in batteries until now. I'd just assumed lipo like Kokam was rated the same as the RC lipo. :confused:

For that matter, what's the discharge rate for the "NCM" chemistry Brammo uses?

I mean, yeah, I get the density and all, but 5/10C? Really?

oooooo mai haid hertz


Big one is safety. EIG can be over-charged, over-discharged, nail stuck through them, crushed...they don't leak, vent, or catch fire. (It's in the "Reliability and Safety" section of their website (http://www.eigbattery.com/).)

RC lipo is made for tiny little vehicles with a 5 Ah cell putting out 150A all by itself. With large kWh packs, there are usually enough cells in parallel that you don't need huge discharge rates. A 12 kWh pack at 10C can put out well over 80 kW [edit 100 kW was pretty generous] (regardless of the series-parallel configuration).

Nuts & Volts
11 February 2013, 0909
So, Kyle. Why EIG? I'm looking into them more and they don't seem all that strong in terms of discharge rates. Is there something I'm missing? Is the manufacturer rating just conservative? Wait. Kokam too. What? I really hadn't looked into the specs for the high-priced spread in batteries until now. I'd just assumed lipo like Kokam was rated the same as the RC lipo. :confused:

For that matter, what's the discharge rate for the "NCM" chemistry Brammo uses?

I mean, yeah, I get the density and all, but 5/10C? Really?

oooooo mai haid hertz

When I purchase a battery it is a major invest. I know the EIG cells would be useful for 10+ years. If not in a vehicle applications they could be used as a solar panel battery storage system.

I'll keep it short and sweet. I want 10kWh+ on my motorcycle for 60-100miles usable range. At 10C (12C is possible on EIGs) that is about 80-90kW at the wheel (including sag and losses). 90% of the time I will not be using more than 1C of the EIG cells and 90% of time I do not want to carry the extra risk and weight of a LiCo pack. Basically energy trumps C rate anyday for me.

EIG have
-superior gravimetric energy density (175 Wh/kg)
-superior volumetric energy density
-better safety (less likely to fail, and less dangerous failure modes)
-better cycle life (3-4x as much)
-higher quality

EIG cells will give me a lighter bike, with more room for storage (even with 10kWh+). They allow me to run without a BMS without worrying about imbalances (due to high quality) or worrying about catching fire will I charge or store them. I also know that my $10,000 (for 10kWh brand new) will last me 10+ years of total utility.

I also can not fit or afford a motor/controller solution that would allow me to use more than 15C peak from my batteries.

If we don't need a large (>5kWh) HV (>~130V) pack then use LiPo cells because you can minimize risks, take less of a weight or volume hit, need the higher C rate for more power, save on money. Keep in mind a 10C discharge is full to empty in 6minutes. I dream of riding much longer than that every time I get on my bike :D

Jones, I do not think that 6.6Ah cell weight spec is accurate (178Wh/kg). Every other A Spec Nanotech pack is closer to 130Wh/kg, that doesn't add up. And 3.3Ah cells would be a PITA to quality control, build with, and service.

Anyways hope that helps clear things up. I think a 10-15C peak cell is the sweet spot for an electric street sportsbike.

teddillard
11 February 2013, 1011
Well, I didn't really mean to start an "EIG vs RClipo" conversation. As I've said, I don't think lipo is right for this kind of a build, so I'm with you there. My only point was that I've been focusing on RC lipo, and kind of assumed the high-priced cells that are being used in race bikes and such would compare in C rates to the RC lipo... but clearly, I guess not. Is that fair?

Do A123 cells have high discharge rates? Again does anyone know what the Brammo cells discharge at? So does EIG give you pretty much superior density to anything else?

Point taken on the system needing to support a high discharge too...

podolefsky
11 February 2013, 1037
You want to use lipo, just not RC lipo.

A123 18650s will do over 25C peak. Their prismatic pouch will do about 20C (according to the spec sheet).

I'd be curious about the Brammo cells also. I'm going to guess they're similar to EIG and Kokam. They wouldn't need any more for their power requirements.

__Tango
11 February 2013, 1117
I know we're not really considering cost in this build, but how much do those EIG cells cost? And how available are they?

Also, what about Enerdel batteries (like those that they're using in the Lightning bike)? They're a little bigger and don't have quite the energy density as the EIGs from the specs, but the physical support is very small/lightweight and i suspect the differences will decrease over a full pack.

Richard Hatfield from lightning says they have the same type of resiliency as the EIG cells as well.

Nuts & Volts
11 February 2013, 1125
There are two types of racing. IOM racing generally uses energy dense larger format cells like Kokam, EIG, etc. Short track racing will want higher discharge rate and lower overall capacity generally to help save weight and keep power up. Short track can be done with energy cells, but you end up with extra capacity on board sometimes (ie Brammo could have down about 2 more laps at Daytona, or like 25% more racing).

The production Empulse uses 10Ah NCM cells which is a sweet spot of volumetric density from what I have seen/heard. I believe their race bike uses similiar format (10Ah pouch) cells, but maybe not NCM chemistry (this is a guess). They had 13.5-14kWh for awhile and upped that for Daytona (maybe 15kWh). At 155HP (115kW) that is only probably 8-9C peak.

Our OSU bike almost used 10-11Ah LiCo cells because they offered 190-200Wh/kg around 1C and over 400Wh/liter. They were also spec'd to 10C cont, 20-40C peak. I still haven't been able to test whether that power is true, but the energy density was tested on multiple cells.

protomech
11 February 2013, 1133
Both Zero and Brammo have recently claimed that they have the highest density assembled EV modules (Tesla is the only EV manufacturer with very dense cells, Nissan/Honda/Ford/Coda/Fisker are all way off pace). (Brammo in Jan 2012 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=425.msg6629#msg6629), Zero in Sept 2012 timeframe).

EIG is very good. But Zero is no longer using them. Zero's new cells appear to be significantly denser.

Some guesswork below.

***

2012 Zero batteries (EIG):
Zero ZF3, ZF6, ZF9 packs are an enclosure (either 1 or 3 module), BMS, instrumentation and sensors, and 1-3 modules.
Each module is 2628 Wh, 18s2p. Each cell is 3.65V 20Ah nominal, prismatic. Module weight is 18.6 kg (141 Wh/kg).

Zero ZF3 pack is 1 module, 2628 Wh, 24.5 kg (107 Wh/kg).
Zero ZF6 pack is 2 module, 5256 Wh, 50.8 kg (103 Wh/kg).
Zero ZF9 pack is 3 module, 7884 Wh, 69.4 kg (114 Wh/kg).

***

2013 Zero batteries (Farasis):
Zero ZF2.8 pack, Zero ZF8.5 and ZF11.4 packs are an enclosure (either 1 or 3-4 modules), BMS, instrumentation and sensors, and either 1 (ZF2.8) or 3-4 (ZF8.5, ZF11.4) modules.
I *think* each module is 28s1p, each cell is 3.65V nominal 25Ah .
Each module is 2555 Wh. Module weight is approx 14.3 kg (179 Wh/kg).

Zero ZF2.8 pack is 1 module, 2555 Wh, ~18.8 kg (136 Wh/kg). ZF2.8 is a removable pack.
The 2013 Zero X-series bikes (XU, MX, FX) can accept one or two ZF2.8 packs for a total 5.0 kWh nominal capacity. ZF2.8 packs with different SOC or battery health can be used.
Zero ZF8.5 pack is 3 module, 7665 Wh, guessing 56 kg (137 Wh/kg). ZF8.5 is a fixed pack.
Zero ZF11.4 pack is 4 module, 10220 Wh, guessing 70 kg (146 Wh/kg). ZF11.4 is fixed pack.

***

2013 Brammo batteries (unknown Chinese manufacturer):

Both Enertia Plus and Empulse use 3.7V 10Ah prismatic cells. I suspect the same cell is used in both bikes.
Enertia Plus uses two BPM 44/70 modules. Each module is 12s7p. Total battery capacity is 6216 Wh.
Empulse uses seven BPM 15/90 modules. Each module is 4s9p, 3.7V 10Ah prismatic cells

No weight information is known for the Brammo modules, but that's not going to stop me from speculating..

Enertia (classic) is listed at 147 kg. It uses 6 Valence U-Charge 12UXP-1 modules, each weighing approx 6.5 kg. 12.8V 40Ah = 512 Wh, 79 Wh/kg.
Enertia Plus is listed at 150 kg. It is largely similar to Enertia (classic) .. slightly modified steering angle, Perm 126 instead of Perm 120 motor. (Perm 126 is also used for the KTM Freeride E (PDF) (http://www.heinzmann.com/en/component/docman/doc_download/1597-ed21eheinzmanndisc-motor-pms126-for-ktm-freeride-electric-motocrosser)). I think E+ uses Sevcon G8018, not sure what Enertia (classic) uses.

Two scenarios:
1. Weight gain from E(c) to E+ is due to Perm motor, other changes. Battery weight the same. 6226 Wh / 39 kg = 159 WH/kg.
2. Weight gain from E(c) to E+ is due to battery weight. 6226 Wh / 42 kg = 148 Wh/kg.

Nuts & Volts
11 February 2013, 1135
I know we're not really considering cost in this build, but how much do those EIG cells cost? And how available are they?

Also, what about Enerdel batteries (like those that they're using in the Lightning bike)? They're a little bigger and don't have quite the energy density as the EIGs from the specs, but the physical support is very small/lightweight and i suspect the differences will decrease over a full pack.

Richard Hatfield from lightning says they have the same type of resiliency as the EIG cells as well.

EIG will cost about $1/Wh or $73 a cell. There is a price break above QTY1000 cells. Jones has that number that he has shared multiple places.

Enerdel is a good choice, but according to spec sheets they don't offer any advantage to the EIG cells. Unless they do on cost...

Spaceweasel
11 February 2013, 1527
What does that price break look like? Or are we being coy for a reason?

Nuts & Volts
11 February 2013, 1609
What does that price break look like? Or are we being coy for a reason?

I just didnt remember. Found his post here
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47167&p=694700&hilit=+EIG+1000#p694700

So $58.40 or $0.8/Wh in bulk. Not too bad of a price, but I would rather have the 40Ah cells I think

jonescg
11 February 2013, 1648
Hey guys, yes I was quoted $58.40 per cell for 1000+ orders. This is without the assembly kit too. They wouldn't sel it to me for some reason... Anyway, for shipping from Korea to Perth plus customs fees and taxes etc. you can safely add 32% to that figure, since you can't avoid paying duties on big orders.

Kyle, I can't wait to test out this A-spec NanoTech cell. I mainly want to check it's energy density, since even 20C peaks are good enough for me. But I still don't believe them.

For this dream bike, go for EIG. It's a no-brainer.

Spaceweasel
11 February 2013, 1657
No-brainer? Sounds like that's right up my alley!

teddillard
12 February 2013, 0127
Thanks guys! Great information.

Spaceweasel
14 February 2013, 2144
So, to recap the decisions to date:
Yellow
CBR1000rr frame
EIG batteries

Is that as far as we got? We still need:
Hot swap?
Voltage?
Motor?
Controller?

jonescg
15 February 2013, 0123
On the system voltage - It has to be consistent with the controller. Decide on an inverter and then choose the voltage based on that.

I'll propose Rinehart, 360 V top of charge :D

If you're going to go hot-swappable packs, I'd say swap it with a pack of identical capacity. That way there is no change in performance from one pack to the next.

Motor will flow on from this. There are some great options, but provided torque constant is consistent with the motor voltage - max speed - peak efficiency triangle, you'll have a winner.

Love how yellow was the first point decided on :)

teddillard
15 February 2013, 0251
On hot swap packs. To be clear, I'm thinking hot swap modules. So you have a few modules that make up the pack.

I've been trying to decide which makes more sense - using modules at full voltage that you'd parallel to give you more capacity, or modules at full capacity that you'd series for the full voltage. If you do the former, you have the flexibility to lose some weight with the same voltage. If you do the latter you can use the packs for other vehicles with lower or higher voltage. Like tractors and trail bikes. :D I suppose if we're talking just a dream bike concept, then the capacity idea works best.

So we take a bunch of EIG CO20 cells and make 20ah (how manyz) volt modules? (I originally was thinking the CO40, but I think building it in smaller increments is better. You get basic increments of 40ah, 60ah, 80ah.)

Question, though. At 360V, would running a hot-swap connector like a big Anderson-type be safe?

So 50 (for ~180V) of them would measure about 15" x 5.5" x 8.75" or so... (outside dimensions of a theoretical enclosure).

jonescg
15 February 2013, 0351
What's this " thing Ted? Is that like, 25.4 mm? :P

I'm not sold on hot-swappable to be perfectly honest. When I throw my leg over a bike I want it to be the same smile generator it was last time I was on some twistys as it will be on the way to the shops. Modular packs mean at times it will be slow but not saggy, or quick and very saggy, but in both cases have limited range. Full pack, full volts, full capacity I sayz.

podolefsky
15 February 2013, 0853
I've been trying to decide which makes more sense - using modules at full voltage that you'd parallel to give you more capacity, or modules at full capacity that you'd series for the full voltage.

Better to have full capacity that you series.

Here's why. (http://liionbms.com/php/wp_parallel_cells.php)

Nuts & Volts
15 February 2013, 1025
NO ANDERSONS! Use screw terminals or something else low resistance

Yes parallel then series. I would make 10-12s 2p modules (or ideally 1p with the 40Ah pack). Those would all be non-HV (<50V) which means no requirement to use HV gloves to construct packs, easily integrate a 12s BMS, easily step up 50V if you need a higher voltage pack, and 30lbs most people could carry.

Could also do 6s modules to accommodate making 20, 40, 60, 80Ah setups lighter without making the BMS too difficult.

The Rinehart PM100DX sounds good to me. They can do up to 400V (and 415V on newer models). So we could run a 96s2p pack (14kWh) or 84s2p (12.2kWh). Both would easily supply 90k-100kW and be between 210-250lbs. Go lower voltage if you want a lighter bike and take the hit on power available.

I still think the Mission Motors MC600 controller would be a better solution because it could give you 100kW at anywhere between 250-400V because of its higher phase current (600Arms). Basically I think it's always better to have an overkill controller so that your batteries and motor can be upgraded as they get better. Keeping the controller the same means you keep most of your LV wiring the same too!

Spaceweasel
15 February 2013, 1028
Regarding hot swap modules and voltages: If you can have all the smiles or all the miles, I wan't all the smiles all the time. If I'm going farther away I'll grab more packs. Plus if you are going to the track imagine heading there with three (or so) minimal sized packs to make the range, and then charging them in the paddock while you lap on one of them - lets you play all day on a lighter bike.

protomech
15 February 2013, 1126
Brammo builds low voltage modules then physically lays them out in series (Empulse is 4s9p per module, 7 modules in series) .. Zero builds high-voltage modules then physically lays them out in parallel (2012 was 18s2p per module, 1-3 modules in parallel .. 2013 modules are 28s1p per module, 1-4 modules in parallel).

The 2012 and 2013 Zero fixed battery bikes I believe have just a single BMS. This indicates to me that the cells are first electrically connected in parallel to a single bank then the banks are electrically connected in series.

On the flip side, the 2012 and 2013 Zero modular battery bikes have one BMS per module. Moot point for 2012 (1 module per bike), but allows them to step most or all of the points addressed on the lionbms page. If one module has a weak cell (remembering that the 2013 is a 28s1p module), then the BMS will shut the module down and the remaining module will continue to discharge to its full capacity. The Zero BMS allows for different module packs to be connected at different SOCs and different levels of degradation; presumably the stronger pack would operate alone until voltage sags down to meet the weaker pack.

podolefsky
15 February 2013, 1204
I can't say for certain, but it seems pretty likelly that Zero did modules in parallel because it was easier from an manufacturing perspective (let them build the same pack for use in different models). That might have a net cost savings if you are making different bikes, but it still means having 2-4 BMS's instead of 1, and they also have to be more complex BMS's to avoid the problems of multiple strings in parallel. If you want to hot swap packs, it's even more complicated.

So yeah, it sort of fixes the issues pointed out by lionbms, except for all the added complexity and cost in the BMS. Multiple BMSs is a band-aid for compromises in pack design. If zero is now doing directly parallel packs, that would make sense - they probably stepped up their production capabilities so they can do each different bike the right way.

protomech
15 February 2013, 1433
2013 is the first time Zero has used multiple BMS and multiple parallel (hot-swap) packs. To the best of my knowledge all previous bikes have been single BMS, though internally the cells may have physically been configured in several modules (2012 S/DS). And yeah, I'm sure it's done to reduce manufacturing cost.

If you do multiple removable packs in series, then your controller has to handle a very wide voltage range. Maybe that's less of a problem than I imagine, but the Sevcon and Curtis controllers all seem to have about a +/- 20% range that they'll work with.

Edit: nevermind, the Sevcon G80 is 39.1 VDC minimum / 116 VDC maximum.
http://www.heinzmann.com/en/engine-and-turbine-management/download-etm/doc_download/1660-sevcon-gen4-80

If the cells can sag down to 3.0 volts per cell under heavy load, then you need at least 14s to operate the bike. If the cells are 4.2 volts per cell hot off the charger, then you can use at most 27s. Maybe 27s if you terminate the charge slightly early.

Here are some sample battery configurations for that controller:

14s modules, battery can be 1-2 modules *requires undercharge
9s modules, battery can be 2-3 modules
6s modules, battery can be 3-4 modules
5s modules, battery can be 3-5 modules
4s modules, battery can be 4-6 modules
3s modules, battery can be 5-9 modules
2s modules, battery can be 7-14 modules *requires undercharge

IMO the most attractive systems would be either the 14s or the 5s and 4s modules. The smaller modules would allow you to assemble a 10 kWh pack, each module around 100 Ah, and weigh around 20-30 pounds.

teddillard
15 February 2013, 1506
If you do multiple removable packs in series, then your controller has to handle a very wide voltage range.

huh? You wouldn't want to be varying the voltage of the pack. Makes no sense...

Nuts & Volts
15 February 2013, 1655
2013 is the first time Zero has used multiple BMS and multiple parallel (hot-swap) packs. To the best of my knowledge all previous bikes have been single BMS, though internally the cells may have physically been configured in several modules (2012 S/DS). And yeah, I'm sure it's done to reduce manufacturing cost.

If you do multiple removable packs in series, then your controller has to handle a very wide voltage range. Maybe that's less of a problem than I imagine, but the Sevcon and Curtis controllers all seem to have about a +/- 20% range that they'll work with.

Edit: nevermind, the Sevcon G80 is 39.1 VDC minimum / 116 VDC maximum.
http://www.heinzmann.com/en/engine-and-turbine-management/download-etm/doc_download/1660-sevcon-gen4-80

If the cells can sag down to 3.0 volts per cell under heavy load, then you need at least 14s to operate the bike. If the cells are 4.2 volts per cell hot off the charger, then you can use at most 27s. Maybe 27s if you terminate the charge slightly early.
.......
IMO the most attractive systems would be either the 14s or the 5s and 4s modules. The smaller modules would allow you to assemble a 10 kWh pack, each module around 100 Ah, and weigh around 20-30 pounds.

You can't get 100kW from a Sevcon Gen4 Size6 or Curtis (or two of each for that matter). You need to use a higher voltage (>200V) controller to get that. This defines your battery voltage range. On Sevcon, Tritium, Rinehart, Mission controllers all work from ~80V-400/450V. In order to give people freedom in motorcycle weight (battery is about 50% of the weight) you can allow them to have 12s modules that can be swapped in and out. Like I stated the Mission Controller could keep high power (>70kW) at ~250V nominal pack voltage. It might not work out that well in reality, but that's the best option as this point.


...A 12 kWh pack at 10C can put out well over 80 kW [edit 100 kW was pretty generous] (regardless of the series-parallel configuration).

Noah I just saw your edit. I have solid data (sorry can't share it) that a 12kWh (82s2p) EIG pack can deliver >98kW at 20% SOC @25degC. At >50% SOC the pack can deliver over 113kW. These cells are the real deal.

podolefsky
15 February 2013, 2300
Noah I just saw your edit. I have solid data (sorry can't share it) that a 12kWh (82s2p) EIG pack can deliver >98kW at 20% SOC @25degC. At >50% SOC the pack can deliver over 113kW. These cells are the real deal.

Wow...that's excellent. Gotta gets me some of those...I only need one kidney, right?

teddillard
16 February 2013, 0315
NO ANDERSONS! Use screw terminals or something else low resistance...

Why not? (I'm guessing they have a lot of resistance from your comment... not much gets by me, no sir!)

I wasn't aware of an issue with them, as long as the ratings are right.

Nuts & Volts
16 February 2013, 0742
Why not? (I'm guessing they have a lot of resistance from your comment... not much gets by me, no sir!)

I wasn't aware of an issue with them, as long as the ratings are right.

It's mostly a personal thing. I have used some of the larger ones before and they were such a pain in my ass to try to disconnect. It had a bit to do with where they were on the bike. They are large and do not fit well on a bike which is already cramped with things. I think they're ugly too.

I have no science to say why I don't like them. I have just used appropriately sized ones and hated them every second. I love them for lower current charger connections thou.

Mike Edwards
16 February 2013, 0917
Really interesting thread so far. Don't forget that a) you will screw up the handling of any existing chassis with the weight and additional rigidity of bolting it all together and b) you can fabricate a frame from scratch in steel quite cheaply to whatever dimensions you desire so don't limit your options unnecessarily.

We are embarking on an electric bike project primarily to prove the benefits of existing SuperBike electronics, traction control, launch control, etc. in an EV but our focus is as much on the chassis as it is on the power train. We have loads of experience on that front but much less on the battery side of things. Current plan is a 700V/Sevcon/Yasa set up in a carbon fibre chassis. It's going to be a (very) steep learning curve building a bike that is a) extremely fast and b) isn't going to kill us along the way.

teddillard
16 February 2013, 1018
...you will screw up the handling of any existing chassis with the weight and additional rigidity...

That's a new one on me. I never heard of screwing up the handling with additional rigidity... can you say a little more?

Thanks for chiming in, Mike! Looking forward to seeing your build...

OK Kyle. If you guys are indulging my personal penchant for YELLOW then I figure it's only fair to indulge you on the NO ANDERSONS thang... :rolleyes:

Nuts & Volts
16 February 2013, 1037
That's a new one on me. I never heard of screwing up the handling with additional rigidity... can you say a little more?

Thanks for chiming in, Mike! Looking forward to seeing your build...

OK Kyle. If you guys are indulging my personal penchant for YELLOW then I figure it's only fair to indulge you on the NO ANDERSONS thang... :rolleyes:

I can give you one example. When your bike is leaned over in corner, your suspension can no longer function to its full capabilities due to stiction. Well if you have no suspension and go over a bump in the turn you increase the risk of losing traction which is bad :D. So the big OEMs use the spring rate/elasticity of the frame/engine material (all materials have some sort of spring action) to act as the suspension to maintain maximum traction. They actually tune the bikes to do this. Remove the engine and you have messed up that optimal/optimized spring rate and compromised handling. This is with modern bikes.

I have no way to quantify the difference (well actually I know the equations needed, just don't feel like figuring out the variables. In my opinion you can get pretty good performance, by replacing the engine with something that has similiar properties (elasticity, weight, modulus, etc.).

The center of gravity and overall weight are also factors that come into play, but are easier to tune with the suspension settings available.


Ted, there are alternatives to Andersons, but most of the time they are really expensive. Tyco electronics has some, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

podolefsky
16 February 2013, 1055
It's mostly a personal thing. I have used some of the larger ones before and they were such a pain in my ass to try to disconnect. It had a bit to do with where they were on the bike. They are large and do not fit well on a bike which is already cramped with things. I think they're ugly too.

I have no science to say why I don't like them. I have just used appropriately sized ones and hated them every second. I love them for lower current charger connections thou.

I don't like them either. They're actually really well designed, if you're not pulling things apart that often. There's a lot of pressure between the pins, so they might have a bit more surface resistance than screwing things together, but probably not much. But this is also why I don't like them...they're too hard to pull apart. I always feel like I'm going to smack my knuckles on something or yank the wires out with how hard I have to pull on them. They make a special handle so you can get better grip, but that just makes them bigger.

What I wish they had was a little lever that opened them up without having to brute force yank them apart. Or just a clip to keep them connected, that you press to release, like almost every other connector out there.

They do come in different colors, which is neat. I got red ones. (what's weird is that the red ones and the grey ones aren't compatible :confused:)

podolefsky
16 February 2013, 1106
I can give you one example. When your bike is leaned over in corner, your suspension can no longer function to its full capabilities due to stiction. Well if you have no suspension and go over a bump in the turn you increase the risk of losing traction which is bad :D. So the big OEMs use the spring rate/elasticity of the frame/engine material (all materials have some sort of spring action) to act as the suspension to maintain maximum traction. They actually tune the bikes to do this. Remove the engine and you have messed up that optimal/optimized spring rate and compromised handling. This is with modern bikes.

There was an article about this Cycle World (or Motor Cyclist?) a few months back. What they said is that in addition to the stiction issue, there's also the fact that when leaned over the forces get close to perpendicular to the suspension travel. To soak up bumps, the wheels need to be able to move sideways (relative to the bike), so they engineer some flex into parts of the chassis. It's not a perfect solution because a flexing frame isn't very well damped, but it's better than nothing. Overly rigid bikes are prone to more chatter when cornering hard.

Skeezmour
16 February 2013, 1134
Check out the MotoCzysz front suspension to see how they work with the handling while leaned over.

Mike Edwards
16 February 2013, 1453
That's a new one on me. I never heard of screwing up the handling with additional rigidity... can you say a little more?

Thanks for chiming in, Mike! Looking forward to seeing your build...

OK Kyle. If you guys are indulging my personal penchant for YELLOW then I figure it's only fair to indulge you on the NO ANDERSONS thang... :rolleyes:


Perhaps screw up is a little harsh but the whole bike is designed to flex under load. It is a careful balance of weight, power and flexibility to maximise the handling. Of course road bikes are a trade off but, for example, you have 50 hp in a chassis designed for 150 hp the the bike will handle differently than was intended. On the road this may not be noticeable, even something like the Isle of Man TT course may let you get away with things you wouldn't otherwise but on a short circuit there will definitely be a difference.

If you look at the Aprilia RSV4 road bke and compare it to the World Superbike you will notice they don't use the centre engine mount to allow the frame to flex more. On the Aprilia CRT bikes in MotoGP that whole spar isn't there at all.

When we built out last British SuperBike we had the stock swing arm tested by a friend of mine that designs MotoGP bikes and WSB swing arms. His conclusion was that the torsional stiffness was fine but the lateral stiffness was too much. Bizarrely on an aftermarket swing arm hw would have chosen to run more torsion stiffness but only if he could reduce the lateral.

Clearly it can be a black art, or at least something reserved for those looking for the absolute limit of traction but that is our goal which is why he'll be designing our bike and making sure the carbon fibre flexes as intended.

Mike Edwards
16 February 2013, 1510
Check out the MotoCzysz front suspension to see how they work with the handling while leaned over.

This is where Michael Czysz and I disagree.The traditional suspension design works really, really well these days and whilst engineering improvements have minimised the tolerance in the hub centred approach favoured by Czysz there will always be a degree of slack in the steering right at the point where you need the optimum amount of feel.

This may only be at 99.99% of optimum and it may be superb up until that point but it will never, ever beat the system in use in MotoGP and pretty much everywhere else where optimum performance is the goal.

teddillard
16 February 2013, 1549
This is where Michael Czysz and I disagree.The traditional suspension design works really, really well these days and whilst engineering improvements have minimised the tolerance in the hub centred approach favoured by Czysz there will always be a degree of slack in the steering right at the point where you need the optimum amount of feel.

This may only be at 99.99% of optimum and it may be superb up until that point but it will never, ever beat the system in use in MotoGP and pretty much everywhere else where optimum performance is the goal.

So. You guys are pretty much laughing your asses off at me and my '70s vintage steel tube frames, huh? ;)

Richard230
16 February 2013, 1603
It seems to me that Ted's bike is right up to date. It has all the flex it needs to corner smoothly. Who needs suspension when you have frame-flex. :)

Personally, I don't think designing frame flex is a very big engineering concern for most production street bikes made by the major manufacturers. I doubt there are too many production motorcycles that wouldn't benefit from a more rigid frame. I think a too-rigid frame is only a consideration under high speed cornering racing conditions and not when riding on the street. I think the manufacturers make frames as rigid as possible within the constraints of their budget and styling concept.

Fab man
16 February 2013, 2228
I always wondered if Ducati flex tuned their frames by evidence of the smaller diameter diagonal tubes(than the other diagonal tubes) next to the steering head:




http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/ducati-motorcycle-chat/84943d1297868432-ducati-frames-wheels-powder-coated-painted-043.jpg

Mike Edwards
17 February 2013, 0030
I always wondered if Ducati flex tuned their frames by evidence of the smaller diameter diagonal tubes(than the other diagonal tubes) next to the steering head:


They may not have fully understood the amount of flex they were introducing but the steel lattice style frames Ducati used for years worked well but they clearly weren't thinking when they moved to the extremely stiff carbon MotoGP frames that relied on the engine as a stressed member.

Richard230 is right though. On the street it is debatable whether the frame flex issue is even noticeable over the additional 100 lbs+ weight from the batteries.

It may even be barely discernible on the track when your bike weighs over 500 lbs but it will be a factor, especially with the swing arm. Hopefully we will be able to find a way of securing the battery pack so the frame can flex without trying to pass on that flex by twisting the battery pack under high loads.

teddillard
17 February 2013, 0343
Richard230 is right though. On the street it is debatable whether the frame flex issue is even noticeable over the additional 100 lbs+ weight from the batteries.

It may even be barely discernible on the track when your bike weighs over 500 lbs but it will be a factor, especially with the swing arm.

So, is it fair to assume that, with a stock CBR1000, if we replace the stressed motor with a similarly stressed battery box and such, and keep the swingarm and front end intact, as well as keeping the C/G and weight distributions similar we can't screw it up too bad for the street? Since you're talking the upper 2% of handling performance, I can't see it to be much of an issue for our dream bike, with the normal caveats we'd use for any build, really. (Your advice - to note the design and weight distribution of the frame, keep in mind the ICE is a stressed member, etc is always good advice starting out on a build.)

I guess I can't see how we could make the bike more rigid even if we wanted to...

Mike Edwards
17 February 2013, 0524
If you can keep the weight distribution right then you will probably be okay. MIght be easier with a bespoke frame though, particularly as they don't have to be that expensive.

A friend has just built a replica of a Ducati twin spar frame. He started with the headstock angle and the swing arm mount and simply filled in the pieces form there.

Spaceweasel
17 February 2013, 1402
Man, if only we could find an aluminum framed bike with modern inverted forks that wouldn't be compromised by losing it's load bearing engine when we ditch the ICE components...

4110

Mike Edwards
17 February 2013, 1417
Man, if only we could find an aluminum framed bike with modern inverted forks that wouldn't be compromised by losing it's load bearing engine when we ditch the ICE components...

You mean pick one that is already massively compromised from the outset?

Fab man
17 February 2013, 1443
They may not have fully understood the amount of flex they were introducing but the steel lattice style frames Ducati used for years worked well...

As I recall, the early 900 Monsters had an even smaller diameter diagonal brace near the steering head. 6-8mm in diameter? Maybe a solid bar?:



4111

It probably was easy to cut out and weld in different stiffness tubes(or bars) in this area, to optimize the corner handling of the pre-production prototype. This could be done right at the test track, without disturbing many components of the bike, because of the exposed nature of the frame-a flexibility(pardon the pun)of design to think about for those considering a conversion.

Richard230
17 February 2013, 1556
What you need is something like my old Aprilia RS50. As near as I could tell, the motor provided absolutely nothing to the structural integrity of the frame and the chassis seemed pretty sturdy to me. Unfortunately, the frame is kind of small for an elmoto conversion, unless you used a hub motor.

Mike Edwards
17 February 2013, 1617
What you need is something like my old Aprilia RS50. As near as I could tell, the motor provided absolutely nothing to the structural integrity of the frame and the chassis seemed pretty sturdy to me. Unfortunately, the frame is kind of small for an elmoto conversion, unless you used a hub motor.

Think you are missing the point. The RS50 had neither the power nor the weight to flex the frame Stick 100 lbs of batteries in there and it will fold in half.

Richard230
17 February 2013, 1846
Think you are missing the point. The RS50 had neither the power nor the weight to flex the frame Stick 100 lbs of batteries in there and it will fold in half.

I would be surprised if that happened. The frame seemed much stronger than say a 1980 Honda CB750, or many other Japanese bikes with a chassis design using a steel tube backbone. Plus, the RS50's motor and it's 3.5 gallons of fuel must have weighed about 75 pounds and I didn't hear any creaking when I pulled the motor. I have owned lots of small motorcycles over the past 50 years and this bike had the most robust frame that I had ever seen in a motorcycle 500 cc or under. It certainly seemed much stronger than my GPz305, or my 250 Ninja, and the frame also seemed to be built stronger than the one on my VFR700FII, just to name some examples. If there was a weak point in the chassis, it might have been the swing arm, which was typically what you might have seen in a Japanese 250. But that frame was massive and well supported by interior webbing.

ARC EV Racing
18 February 2013, 0037
Think you are missing the point. The RS50 had neither the power nor the weight to flex the frame Stick 100 lbs of batteries in there and it will fold in half.

I think this problem is pretty much self limiting. Smaller frames are generally designed for less weight but then they don't have the space to fit a massive battery pack anyway.

We did an rs125 road bike conversion and there was only room for an agni and about 4kWh of A123 cells. Finished weight wasn't much different to the original.

teddillard
18 February 2013, 0441
I think this problem is pretty much self limiting. Smaller frames are generally designed for less weight but then they don't have the space to fit a massive battery pack anyway.

We did an rs125 road bike conversion and there was only room for an agni and about 4kWh of A123 cells. Finished weight wasn't much different to the original.

Right... I think it's pretty much a non-issue after reading through again, due (and great) respect. Keep the weight about the same as what the frame was designed for. Keep the C/G about the same. Keep the structure as much the same as possible, and go for stiffness over trying to second guess the original design's flex. In the worst case you'll lose maybe indiscernable handling at the highest limits of performance, if you somehow accomplish what I think is fairly impossible - to make the frame more rigid. But I'm keeping an open mind.

"Folding up", "massively compromised", "screw up"... maybe a little overstated? ;) Keeping in mind there are somewhat huge differences between what makes a good roadracing frame and what makes a good, high-performance street frame?

As far as designing and building a frame, I sincerely doubt we could build a significant improvement on the top of the industry's designs today... This is just my personal opinion, but decades of the top racing teams and manufacturers throwing money at frame design has got to mean something.

...and just to subject myself to ridicule, I'll say it again. I think the double-steel-downtube frames, starting with the Norton and on through to the Yamaha roadracers of the '70s were in many ways the apex of the frame builder's art. :p

Mike Edwards
18 February 2013, 0716
Agree that the CBR1000 frame is probably best of those available. At the end of the day the newer and fewer miles the better.

Again, from a race bike standpoint one of our riders could always tell which bike was new and which had done half a season of racing by the feel of how much the frame flexed.

Spaceweasel
30 August 2017, 1933
Oddly enough, I was googling info on the mono tracer (it came up in my ludicrous idea thread) and this elmoto dream bike conversation popped up.

So here's the question: where do we stand now, four and a half years later?

When last we left, it was a liter bike frame and no anderson connectors. Oh, and it was yellow. :D

Ted Dillard
02 September 2017, 0521
;)

Hugues
02 September 2017, 0819
;)

who's this junior member on the board ?:confused:

Stevo
03 September 2017, 1554
Since this thread has been resurrected... Al frames are way stiffer than steel ones. I remember when Honda introduced aluminum frames on their CR dirtbike line and the extra rigidity was a problem at first.
To me, they felt like a big tuning fork... I could feel a harmonic vibration through the handlebars at times.

kwikas
20 September 2017, 1743
Waaaa....??? That's it? I was so absoluely engrossed in this thread that i didn't see how old it was. What a shame that it stopped...

Ted Dillard
21 September 2017, 0238
;) It was a great conversation. Unfortunately, as forums go, at that point in time members came, members went, and the subject got dropped.

On the other hand, I continued my, er, obsession on my own blog, and tagged it as "The CBRe Build Thread". You can read all about it here:
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/category/the-cbre-build-thread/

Alas, the build never actually happened. :(

T Rush
08 March 2018, 0523
you guys almost built one of these:
http://www.zuun.com.br/arquivos/files/02_NOTICIAS/LANCAMENTOS/2017/Lightning/2.jpg


...the CBR chassis was a good idea, but I just think you picked the wrong CBR with the "RR", as super sport bikes are fun and all, but they are just not comfortable, and aren't good at alittle more relaxed speeds and in town....but there is(was) one CBR that was much more comfortable(at least some), looked really cool, and was fast(was the fastest in 1998)...it was the "gentleman's touring super sport" that people mounted panniers on...
the Honda Super Blackbird CBR 1100XX
https://www.moto.com.br/img/2009/07/21/img125556-1-1248203030-v1-450x337.jpg
I found a yellow one for ya

I do own a Blackbird, and love it, lowered it just a little, raised the bars, mounting bags on it next


but you guys kept talking about having problems with the frame...I think the main problem with converting any ICE bike is that none of the frames will really be made to fit huge battery configurations.....so I say go in a different direction....something odd looking, but well built to carry some weight, still aerodynamic, and super comfortable...at home in the city, great on the open road, but has no frame so you can build anything you want between the front and the back
BMW R1100RT
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/BMW%20R1100RT%2096%20%207.jpg
and I own two of those, one has over 90,000miles on it

http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/mechanicalphotos/r1100rt%20chassis.jpg

Stevo
08 March 2018, 1242
Spaceweasle on here is working on the BMW shaftdrive conversion as we write...
I agree I think its an excellent choice for a conversion if the whole shaftdrive can be worked out. I think a VFR would be another great consideration too, especially one with the hard side bags to house additional batteries for removable extended range.

Spaceweasel
08 March 2018, 1353
The BMW R bikes are very interesting from a conversion front. If I hadn't fixated on the hossack front end I might have gone that way.

Ted Dillard
08 March 2018, 1635
Well, kind of.

The Lightning was (is) running a Remy motor built by AMRacing (actually at the time a closely guarded secret), and I'd have to look it up again, but I believe the Emrax (and now YASA and Phi-Power and others) more or less kicks the Remy's butt. I'm pretty certain that the AMRacing guys don't agree with me. :rolleyes:

My intention, for what it's worth, had little to do with comfort, and was simply all about state of the art handling. After several conversations with some pretty top level race guys, mostly Rob Barber, though, I settled on the CBR RR. I love the beemers but I just don't think the bike is in the same class.

T Rush
09 March 2018, 0029
...My intention, for what it's worth, had little to do with comfort, and was simply all about state of the art handling. After several conversations with some pretty top level race guys, mostly Rob Barber, though, I settled on the CBR RR. I love the beemers but I just don't think the bike is in the same class.
oh yeah, I know
like even comparing my R1100RT with my CBR1100XX, tho both will do many of the same things with much overlap between use capabilities; they are very bipolar at either end on their differences

BMW RT
90hp 120 mph
unladen 571 lbs., max permissible weight 1,080 lbs.(509 lbs. rider, passenger, luggage)

Blackbird
164hp 178.5 mph
unladen 490 lbs. , max permissible weight 897 lbs.(407 lbs. rider, passenger, luggage)



The BMW R bikes are very interesting from a conversion front....
I keep looking at the two of them I have, esp the one that has over 90,000miles on it with the rings starting to get alittle loose
(but then I have to say: "no no, not yet...go look at the little Derbi, see how you do at that one first")



.... especially one with the hard side bags to house additional batteries for removable extended range.
yeah, that would be cool, wouldn't it?....even having two sets so that you could just swap 'battery bags' and go around again....I'll measure my sets of BMW luggage, but with the top trunk, I wouldn't be surprised if you if you couldn't fit 24 Leaf modules(half a cars worth!) per set(8 modules in each of the 3 cases? it would be about the weight of carry a passenger), in just removable/hot swap-able amp hours...on top of whatever you could fit in the engine and fuel bay(like something different that you can charge fast)...and this bike would still look stock ;)

then you stick a smaller, lighter, most efficient emotor in there that you can find; use 1st, 3rd, and 5th gears of the five speed trans to get that beast up to speed...
*...and see how many miles you can log in a 24hrs span*

T Rush
09 March 2018, 0524
wait...I just looked it up...the world record for distance traveled in an EV is only about 1500miles set by a Tesla Model S in Germany @ 63mph average for 24hrs

so if 'we' could build a motorcycle that could run ~100mph and do quicker stops to just swap out the battery bags...
...see what I'm saying here?


(btw, I came really close to riding one of my R1100RT's 1000miles in 24hrs once when I was on an epic 2week/5000mile solo ride...so if we had a team)






for reference, this guy was working on the 24hr ICE motorcycle record last year https://newatlas.com/motorcycle-endurance-record-carl-reese/47902/


doing some quick simple maths in my head:
if you could build an electric motorcycle that can run at close to 100mph for one hour on a battery pack, take 12min to swap packs after each hour of run time, and do that 20times(20hrs riding total, 4hrs total spent swapping batteries and riders)...wouldn't that do it?
...and couldn't 24 Nissan Leaf modules give you 100volts with 100amp hrs, would that power a 100mph bike for an hour?
then you would just need to run 3 chargers on the 3 'battery bags' of 8 modules each(you might have a few sets of 'bags' and chargers) to charge them back up(in an hour? in two hours?)...well, I'm sure someone/everyone else knows more about that than me

I was trying to use this http://www.tritrack.net/horsePower.html to calculate if 10kwh is enough? maybe?
each bag could be 33.3volts @ 100ah, so is that like 4000w to charge it in an hour? idk 18amps @ 240v I'm I getting it yet?

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1021
I've always thought of battery swapping as "cheating". Mostly because it doesn't reflect the reality of someone wanting to ride 1000 miles. I would feel the same way about mid-ride refueling (a la fighter jets or BMW's last drift "record"). Theoretically you could not have an onboard charger, leaving more room/weight for batteries - but I wouldn't street ride a bike that couldn't charge (track is a different story).

So the question becomes how fast can you realistically charge? Max that out, load as many amp hours of battery as possible onto the bike, then find two charge points that are just shy of your range apart and race back and forth.

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1042
Also, does anyone know the power requirements of running at 100? Efficiency drops as speed increases, so I don't know that 100 is the optimal, but I don't have even a rough number to plug in to try calculations. I think the rule of thumb of 100w/mile is usually found at closer to 50mph.

Stevo
09 March 2018, 1053
One of the removable side paniers can also be used to house a charger instead of batteries... just a thought.

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1105
Terry Hershner has been doing long range stuff for a while now. He carries multiple extra chargers to minimize his charge time at a station:
"I did the Ironbutt, a thousand miles (1m609 km) in 24 hours, in 2014. I did about 150 miles (241 km) per charge, and I'd charge in a little under an hour using four J-plugs at a time. I had to find locations that had four next to each other, and I'd use them all."

He also did the Vetter challenge, which is an efficiency test. Here he talks about speed vs range:
"The one that I entered in 2014 was 172 miles (277 km), it was the longest they'd ever done. And we were going at extremely fast speeds. We did it up in Bonneville, Utah, where the speed limit is 80 mph (129 km/h). Obviously, the faster you go, the worse it is for range. So it was the longest and the fastest Vetter challenge ever. Most of those challenges were done over in Ohio about 100 miles at about 55 mph (161 km at 89 km/h).

But because of the aerodyamics on the bike, we were able to do the entire 172 miles on a single charge at 80 mph. I think it took about 21 kilowatt-hours to recharge the bike, so I won the cost per mile."

https://newatlas.com/electric-terry-hershner-interview-charger/53626/

Stevo
09 March 2018, 1145
Great story... thanks for sharing. So you don't recommend that I strap my 80lb lab/weimaraner mix to my tank?!!LOL
About the grid spikes and ev/powerwall support... I was wondering if once there were enough battery capacity tied to the grid, like say 10-15 years from now, would catching lightning strikes actually be feasible??

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1225
Allright, T Rush, now you got me thinking. Here's my "no cheat" plan:
1)Take a Zero 13.0 plus power tank (range 90 miles @70mph) http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/
2) beef up the subframe, split a 13.0 battery and power tank into panniers and a circuit to switch between packs (range ~ 180 miles). The battery weight of ~160lbs is well within the range of a passenger, so this shouldn't be an issue.
3) add a single track trailer (also streamlined) with a third 13.0 battery and power tank. (range ~270 miles) http://pbmotorcycletrailer.com/single-wheel-motorcycle-trailers/
4) add streamlining. This should increase range by at least 100% at speed. (range ~540 miles) http://motorcyclecolorado.com/blog/tag/motorcycle-streamlining/
5) Include 3 charge tanks @6kw each. This should allow you to charge the whole rig off 3 circuits in roughly 2 hours.

500 miles at 70mph is just over 7 hours. Add 2 hours to charge/nap/caffeinate/drain your catheter and you can do ~1300 miles in a day. Minus the trailer and you would be looking at (360 miles in 5 hours + 2 hours charging) ~1200miles in 24 hours. Hmm, might not be worth it with the trailer...

T Rush
09 March 2018, 1339
I've always thought of battery swapping as "cheating"....
well now in Formula 1, they don't refuel and have to carry enough petrol to get them thru the entire race
...however, in Formula E they swap to a whole new car half way thru a 50min race!


its really just "refueling" to swap batteries...not a foreign concept in EV's, nor flashlights :p





Also, does anyone know the power requirements of running at 100?...
I used that tritrack calculator and tried to put in (guessing, with a large margin for error) a R1100RT at 1000lbs, and got just around 13hp needed to maintain 100mph(only using a R1100RT because its a joy to ride at 100mph, easy to operate, built like a tank, super reliable for long trips, and I have an extra one)
...but sure, EV's don't get the best range at speed, thats why there would have to be a lot more stops in 24hrs...battery swapping makes much more sense than sitting there and watching electrons boil




the great thing about doing smaller easily replaceable external packs on an El Moto would be that you can charge each pack separately but simultaneously, something that would be very hard to do with one big larger pack needed in a eCar(where it would be much more time consuming and even dangerous to hot-swap)...multiple sets of 'battery bags' on a bike would be very quick stops, even if you had to do it more than 20times in 24hrs


...its like my Mercedes-Benz GL350 has a range of 600miles on a 26+gallon tank of diesel, but its just not practical(for a human) to drive that long without stopping....and I think with EV's they have really tried to sell that point to the public; that your almost never driving around for an hour or more than 40miles(or whatever studies have shown)... so I think its viable to do a world record with making lots of stops, and battery swaps to completely cut out recharging nonsense

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1439
Allright, T Rush, now you got me thinking. Here's my "no cheat" plan:
1)Take a Zero 13.0 plus power tank (range 90 miles @70mph) http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/
2) beef up the subframe, split a 13.0 battery and power tank into panniers and a circuit to switch between packs (range ~ 180 miles). The battery weight of ~160lbs is well within the range of a passenger, so this shouldn't be an issue.
3) add a single track trailer (also streamlined) with a third 13.0 battery and power tank. (range ~270 miles) http://pbmotorcycletrailer.com/single-wheel-motorcycle-trailers/
4) add streamlining. This should increase range by at least 100% at speed. (range ~540 miles) http://motorcyclecolorado.com/blog/tag/motorcycle-streamlining/
5) Include 3 charge tanks @6kw each. This should allow you to charge the whole rig off 3 circuits in roughly 2 hours.

500 miles at 70mph is just over 7 hours. Add 2 hours to charge/nap/caffeinate/drain your catheter and you can do ~1300 miles in a day. Minus the trailer and you would be looking at (360 miles in 5 hours + 2 hours charging) ~1200miles in 24 hours. Hmm, might not be worth it with the trailer...

T Rush
09 March 2018, 1529
so sit on one of these for 14hrs a day?
http://www.government-fleet.com/fc_images/news/m-l-zero-ds-motorcycle.jpg
I don't know if I could do that if it was standing still in my living room, let alone moving at 70mph

when I did my two week long 5000mile solo ride on my R1100RT, I was getting pretty settled in on that bike...and its a very comfortable bike, not a fancy feature-full bike, just very simple...but big seat(height adjustable), fantastic aerodynamics(mirrors block the wind from your hands, and adjustable windshield), heated grips, cabin heat(yes, you can change the vents from the oil cooler to ride in a bubble of warmer air), and a pretty quiet smooth ride on a large(but not huge) bike....like before I quit I could light and smoke a cig at 60mph...so on the way home, I had a really good run going(started riding at midnight, so if/when I stopped things would be still open and people would be out and active, and I could have gotten off and browsed the sights)....but then I realized I would do well over 1000miles if I made it all the way home that day, or if I detoured slightly I could stop at my Moms house but be just 50miles or so shy of 1000(so thought maybe I'd find a lap to do for an hour)....at 900miles I was never so glad to take that detour, and stayed at my Mom's for three days...so, just saying

here are pictures of me/bike on that epic ride:
early on a ferry crossing over to Nantucket, and during the last lag trying to make it 1200miles home in 24hrs
75597560



but check this guy out on his Blackbird http://www.cbrxx.com/events-rides-ride-reports/2818-bbg-hell-week-mission-complete.html


July 14 - 1,519 miles
July 15 - 1,510 miles
July 16 - 1,521 miles
July 17 - 1,515 miles
July 18 - 1,526 miles
July 19 - 1,518 miles
July 20 - 1,527 miles

TOTAL MILEAGE: 10,636 miles
TOTAL TIME: 6 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes

and yes; he did have to stop for refueling, tire changes, repairs, massage therapy, and all the things a human has to do to recharge/replace their personal battery(eat and poop)....but I think the secret was to ride as fast as possible, so you had time to do that stuff

then someone riding a HD beat him, but just endlessly going around a big oval track...he was running the CBR1100XX in a huge loop on open highways thru California, Oregon, Nevada, and Utah

Spaceweasel
09 March 2018, 1620
My longest was a 1,420 mile 26 hour run from Vegas to Wichita (construction routed me North up 93) on a Katana 600 when I was a much younger man. Wasn't fun through the cold night, and was I was stupid tired at the end. Should have stopped but there was a girl waiting for me...

The problem with an electric bike is the speed/efficiency drop off coupled with the charge time. We are getting closer, but not there yet.

T Rush
09 March 2018, 1643
yeah, I did my ride before I was 50yo(so in that photo, it was October and I had just turned 49, or was it 48?) now 4 or 5 years latter I don't think I could do it solo


...The problem with an electric bike is the speed/efficiency drop off coupled with the charge time. We are getting closer, but not there yet.
but thats why I say do battery changes, do them often, and rider swaps.....why make it too hard

T Rush
09 March 2018, 1738
ok, since you posted your "Zero Cheat" here is my "hot swap"

•R1100RT just because I have an extra one... tho it might be awesome to use my Blackbird(but I like the Honda's ICengine where its at, more than I do the BMW's with 90k miles on it) but something big, comfortable, and aerodynamic vs light, powerful, and quick ?
•for the heck of it a bunch of fast charging Lithium Titanate batteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93titanate_battery) permanently inside it(100v 55ah from 5p*42s $2000 180lbs)
•and efficient mid sized liquid cooled controller and motor using close ratio trans 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears to run different speeds(1st for wheelies, 5th for max highest speed)
•then 4 sets of three piece luggage with 8 Nissan Leaf modules in each luggage bag(24 module load on bike for 100v 100ah 2p*4s in 3s bags 200lbs total)

...run that bike as fast as it will go and see how many miles you get
then have the 3 remaining sets of luggage charged~charging ready for the next rider to take it out and see how fast/far they can go on a set

see if a team can do that for 24hrs, or a week

so maybe one rider goes 120mph(uses 5th gear) and lasts 30min and does 60miles, and the next rider cruses for an hour and 30min at 60mph(uses 3rd gear) for 90miles, then another rider and battery set does 100mph for an hour(uses 4th gear) gets 100miles, so then a guy wants to try 4th gear at 70mph...; or whatever until you mess around and find the most efficient using the maths, see who drained the batteries the least and was fastest/farthest....but having the transmission allows different final drive for different speeds which might help to be the most efficient?(still wondering about that, as I know transmissions aren't 'needed' in EV's) idk [but part of me feels it might be a 'compromise' with an EV bike not to have a trans, as I read where people fiddle trying to find the right final drive ratio to get their higher mph 'hp' without sacrificing too much low speed 'torque' and range...eh, guess parasitic losses in having a trans outweigh any gains of just not having the perfect sprockets for desired mph with direct drive ]

its different than an all out super sport bike most of the ideas are about in this thread aimed at acceleration, but pretty cool data gathering bike


if you get 48 modules out of a salvaged car, and wanted 4 sets of 24 modules(one set on the bike, two sets charging, and one ready to go); so that might be $5000(with two complete car packs at $2500 each) for 96(over 40kwh to play with on hand), and extra chargers(enough to output 300kwh a day?...oh, could you just camp at a public charge station?); as those being most of the special added costs to try this
...maybe different battery type permanently 'in' the bike, but something that charges as fast as possible(just has to be usable for short trips/boost/backup...as you have the 'battery bags' to add on for longer rides, so this bike still works for other things besides this)....you would need 6 off-board chargers(two sets of 3), then pretty much just all the regular stuff on-board the bike you need to do a conversion.....so this might not even cost a fortune, nor be that hard to do, or be that physically hard if you have riders taking turns

*if you really wanted to "cheat", have your one charging station in the middle of a long stretch of road, then take one extra set of fully charged bags in a chase support vehicle....at the end of the bike's run as close to as far as it can go one way, the bike turns around to meet the support vehicle head on(no waiting) for a quick battery swap, then the bike is still heading back passed the charge station ... then so does the support vehicle, but it stops to drop off the old batteries and gets charged ones and heads after the bike again*
...that way the bike is always only less than half the way from the single charge/help/home base, no matter how far it goes without set range limit between two charge stations, so each run distance can vary as speed varies...without using a closed oval track....I guess that would effect "fuel" economy, and somewhat "mph" average speed/time; having to slow down u-turn, then stop again for refueling


anyway
when none of it works, or does; you can sell off the spare Leaf modules and chargers, just keep one set of 'battery bags' and move on with your life/next project and say you gave it a good go....and maybe, during a week long of testing(when you've found the optimal speed and final drive ratio); you just maybe set a new world record for an EV of over 1,500miles in 24hrs, and/or the 7 day mileage total
....ya know? as long as we are dreaming, make it a new dream
[as someone already dreamed of the 218mph eMoto that beats everyone up Pikes Peak, and then even made it real too]

Spaceweasel
11 March 2018, 0751
"Zero cheat" is a more clever name. I appreciate clever.

Transmissions are an old fight club topic around here. The usual conversion plan of a transverse motor mated to a chain drive obviates the need for one, and the wide torque spread of electrics means we can mostly get around the necessity of using one with ICE. But any fixed gear ratio is a compromise...

I still don't know that a record that only keeps the frame and motor convinces anyone of anything. You don't get to show anything about the efficiency of EVs, usability / durability / charging of batteries, ridability of the bike, or even endurance of the rider. I think that's my main problem with the swapping of batteries and riders. But, hell, I'd still take my turn at a shift.

T Rush
11 March 2018, 1149
shaft drive with a trans is not the most efficient

BMW's 'rated' weight limit for luggage is only under 20lbs per bag

bigger taller bike will have more frontal area, no matter how aerodynamic

bike doesnt have to be comfortable at all if you have to stop all the time to charge or swap rider/battery

top cruising speed will be very important in getting the most miles in 24hrs(think the German Tesla was going about 80mph with 15min charge times)...but battery capacity and efficiency at that speed will matter too, in order to get the highest averaged speed over the total time
....as not only the time stopped; but number of times stopping will hurt once you consider power and time needed to get back up to that speed after each stop


also tried harder to look up what has happened with the ev 24hour record
....most of the push in that record has been how far you can go in 24hours on a single charge; I think now its over 1100miles, held by a huge tour bus packed full of batteries.... but there were impressive numbers over the years done by super lite areo torpedo stream-liners, Zoe, Tesla, BMW, etc. cars
...most of them running under 30mph for highest EV efficiency, and where aerodynamics aren't that much of a concern



anyway, here are some I found with EV total distance runs in 24hrs :


2009 Zero Motorcycles 500miles in 24hrs of Electricross
http://www.50cycles.com/blog/zero-motorcycles-sets-world-record-this/#.WqYgiWrwbX4


2012 electric motorcycle attempt(no idea what became of it, or what exact record he was going to try)
https://gas2.org/2012/09/11/funding-an-electric-motorcycle-world-record/


2012 electric Holden Commodore did 1172 miles with battery switching about every 100 miles on oval track
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078516_electric-car-distance-record-1172-miles-in-24-hours-with-battery-switching


2013 with 3 drivers taking turns in a van, 1273 miles using a semi-automated battery swapping concept
https://insideevs.com/greenway-sets-new-24-hour-distance-record-for-battery-swapable-ev-wvideo/


still the last thing I find is the Tesla in Germany @ 1506miles in 2016
https://evobsession.com/new-record-set-ev-travel-german-autobahn/
...I guess that was done using fast Superchargers with 2 drivers, who took turns sleeping in a hotel at night ... and used autopilot 90% of the time
i'd call that pretty weak or cheating :confused:


oh, here is a new one for this year
ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE SET TO TAKE ON 24 HOURS OF LEMANS 2018
http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=4634

T Rush
11 March 2018, 1700
I think the highest mileage in 24hrs I can find was 3362 at Le Mans in 2010 by the Audi R15+ TDI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R15_TDI#R15_TDI_Plus_(2010))

meaning you would have to load up the new Tesla semi truck's trailer with enough fully charged Tesla Powerwalls to power it for 24hrs
...and have it flying at over 140mph without stopping to beat that
(I would think you would cross a point where the more weight in batteries you loaded on, the less speed and range gain you would get...returns would diminish so much that you never could achieve 140mph and/or 3400miles)

~or~

you could run a Lighting LS-218 at near max speed and only spend a total of 7hours on the charger(and getting stopped + back up to speed) with 17hrs @ 200mph..so like 34 half hour runs, with 33 stops in-between of only 12 min to charge?
(for reference; a LS-218 can fully fast DC charge in 30min, and then takes about a mile to get up to speed, and can maintain a 'sport track pace' for around 50mile range ... so really can only do 200mph for less than 15min? so with 30min charge time on top of that, might eek out less than 66mph averaged)


~so while doing either of those things might be un-possible, thats to do like an amazing ~3400miles in 24hrs

- shooting for 1700miles (using half of those requirements: 70mph averaged in 24hrs, or 34 half hour runs of 100mph ) might be approachable in this day and age

Warren
12 March 2018, 0902
so sit on one of these for 14hrs a day?
http://www.government-fleet.com/fc_images/news/m-l-zero-ds-motorcycle.jpg
I don't know if I could do that if it was standing still in my living room, let alone moving at 70mph

Yeah. I would definitely want to do it in one of these. :-)

https://electricmotorcycles.news/discover-the-power-of-electric-cabin-motorcycles/

Spaceweasel
12 March 2018, 1635
7561

55ah 420v Tesla drivetrain. Get it to run on the supercharger network and you've got it made!

(BTW I think the estimate for a LS-218 being able to run 200 for 15min is wildly optimistic. I'd put the over/under at less than 5. Although full aero would probably help. )

T Rush
12 March 2018, 2321
7561

55ah 420v Tesla drivetrain. Get it to run on the supercharger network and you've got it made!

(BTW I think the estimate for a LS-218 being able to run 200 for 15min is wildly optimistic. I'd put the over/under at less than 5. Although full aero would probably help. )
...and its yellow

I wish I clearly knew the the advantage(or difference) to high volts vs high amp hours; when it comes to a super dream bike....but I am new here, so dont beat me up too bad yet
thought it was power vs run time ? or does it not exactly fit into the nut shell like that ?


yeah...the "200mph for less than 15min" calculation I posted was generous(but note that at that speed power use and thus recharge cycle, I only came up with a 66mph average for 24hrs) , and didn't factor in increasing resistance nor anything real world....easy round numbers, or ˝ factors of hours just make the maths nicer for me
...but, wow, thanks for reading my posts and finding those details, I'm sure its a challenge

Spaceweasel
13 March 2018, 0846
Lol, good catch on the color. I keep forgetting that Ted had certain demands...

Ted Dillard
13 March 2018, 1615
...and its yellow

I wish I clearly knew the the advantage(or difference) to high volts vs high amp hours; when it comes to a super dream bike..

Thank GOD it's YELLOW.

Um, not sure I can really explain this properly and simply, but basically with a motor capable of high voltage (remember, V = RPM), you have an optimum voltage range to get the power (torque and RPM) you need to get out of the motor. Sorry can't find the curves, but basically if you run a 700V capable motor at 100V, you might as well run a 100V motor. You run it at 700V, and you're going to get the power out of it that it's capable of.

So the voltage is more about the motor output, the AH is about your storage capacity. THEN of course there's your power output from your pack. ;)

Sorry, tbh I haven't been following the thread too closely, but i saw YELLOW and had to chirp up.

T Rush
13 March 2018, 2214
so what is the ElMoto Dream Bike,..as in: what does it do?


does it go 200mph

can it use a Tesla Supercharger

does the battery last longer than the rider

does it cost under $2000 to build

does it do 0~60 in under 2 sec

can you carry it up a flight of stairs

does it make your Wife happy

does it charge really fast

does it have auto pilot

can it keep you dry in the rain


...or does it just have it all, and is yellow
I guess I didn't read the requirements(besides the yellow part)

Stevo
14 March 2018, 0039
Dream BIG or go home:cool:

Nuts & Volts
14 March 2018, 0545
Dream bike was basically what the latest Zero SR can do with a Diginow Supercharger to be honest.

Maybe 20% more power and a fairing and I’d say you have what we were originally wanting to create.

100kW
450lb max
30min 80% charge
12kWh or so for 120mile city

Much sportier than the bikes with bags and trailers that y’all are describing here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stevo
14 March 2018, 1231
Sporty at 450lbs??
This is sporty at 377 lbs:
7568

Richard230
14 March 2018, 1408
Sporty at 450lbs??
This is sporty at 377 lbs:
7568

It ought to be light and sporty, considering how much BMW wants for that bike. Plus, the engine needs to be replaced every 5,000 miles at a cost of $15,000 (or was it $35,000? numbers like that are kind of hard to remember. :rolleyes: )

Nuts & Volts
14 March 2018, 1431
Sporty at 450lbs??
This is sporty at 377 lbs:
7568

Yea that one doesn’t have any batteries...
Brammo/Victory TT bike’s weren’t light still plenty fast.

Sure if I was spec’ing out a bike today I would target 375/400lbs as my goal. 150-200kW, 12-15kWh.
I was reiterating what the goals of this thread were since you guys were asking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ted Dillard
16 March 2018, 0309
Dream bike was basically what the latest Zero SR can do with a Diginow Supercharger to be honest.

Yeah, my intention starting the thread was to see what all this group, with all it's talent and broad interests, could put together, and even what we considered "state of the art". So it's pretty subjective, right? I mean, you get more than three guys in a biker bar talking about what the best bike ever is, and you've got an evening's entertainment.

I love the performance of the Zero, but honestly, compared to the Energica I rode, it's nowhere near what I'd call a dream bike. I vote for lighter weight than the Energica (which I suspect is possible with the latest, greatest battery/motor tech) and handling that can take on almost anything on the track - thus the R1/CBR platform. I don't care about charging, or even range all that much. On a proper superbike, at my age, I'm not going to be able to sit on the thing more than about an hour anyway... :rolleyes:

Spaceweasel
16 March 2018, 0822
Yeah, my intention starting the thread was to see what all this group, with all it's talent and broad interests, could put together, and even what we considered "state of the art". So it's pretty subjective, right? I mean, you get more than three guys in a biker bar talking about what the best bike ever is, and you've got an evening's entertainment.


That's the fun part!

I think one of the keys to understanding your goals for that exercise is in the word "superbike". Which is a different set of parameters from T Rush's record distance design. Which is different from my ideal street machine (which leans more towards the sport-touring end of the spectrum).

My personal ~doable~ specs seem to hover around 200 - but only if I convert to metric :).
200kg, 200kph, 200Nm, 200k range
440lbs, 120mph, 150ft/lbs, 120 mile range

Hmm, looks like my current build is going over my weight budget. Time for a diet...

Spaceweasel
16 March 2018, 0827
Sure if I was spec’ing out a bike today I would target 375/400lbs as my goal. 150-200kW, 12-15kWh.


Holy crap. 200kW? The idea of riding a bike with 268hp in anything other than a straight line scares the bejezus out of me. Not that I wouldn't take a try, just saying that I might need to change trousers after...

T Rush
17 March 2018, 0257
...

My personal ~doable~ specs seem to hover around 200 - but only if I convert to metric :).
200kg, 200kph, 200Nm, 200k range

....
ha, funny

when I first started researching what I could do with my Derbi conversion, I had the same idea! only using "100"

100kg bike weight (220lbs)
100kph max speed (62mph)
100k range (62 miles) or 100min run time in town

...then I tried working backwards from those specs; like what battery and motor could weigh low enough, run long enough, but have enough power to go fast enough
so I guess that was my Dream ElMoto bike....I mean a bike like that would be super practical and usable

and yes, an e touring bike that could do 1700miles in 24hrs would be very special too

then an e supersport would be awesome

electro-cross, let me have a turn

eMotard? sign me up ...low seat eCruiser/chopper(like a HD V-Rod)yup, I'll take one of those too

...they can come in many different forms for different functions
here, have a look at the most popular and iconic motorcycles
https://gearpatrol.com/2013/08/27/50-most-iconic-motorcycles/ ...maybe the perfect elmoto is about like a Honda Super Cub?
(hmm, did I not scroll enough? or just missed the touring bikes?)