PDA

View Full Version : Show us your wiring diagrams!



billmi
23 September 2010, 0934
As blindspot suggested, here's a revival of this thread topic.

I'll kick it off with my schematic. I already posted this in the thread on my build, but I'm surprised no one's caught any flaws yet, as I'm sure there are some that I've not yet found.

366

seanece
23 September 2010, 1315
Except for the oddly named grounds (-12V and -72V) which would actually indicated a 24 volt low voltage system and a 144 volt high voltage system, everything looks real good. What program did you use for the schematic?

Game On!

BaldBruce
23 September 2010, 1448
Nice drawing skills!
My only question is the power draw across the 1K resistor before you energize the contactor. With all the stuff on the 72V line trying to run, before the conatctor is closed, aren't you going to have a couple problems? DC/DC will be trying to start, Power analyzer will be trying to start, and controller will start. With this big of a load it will quickly pull that voltage down until one or more shuts down but the resistor will heat up quickly. Take another look at your circuit keeping in mind that the resistor is just to equalize the capacitors in the controller and then do nothing. It shouldn't be powering things before you want them on. Kelly's circut that they recomend puts a seperate switch to the controller (not through the contactor) and I'm reasoning that is so the controller is not actually on when you are equalizing the capacitors in it.

__Tango
23 September 2010, 1545
What program did you use for the schematic?

Nice!

Thoguh, i'm with sean on this one. What program did you use?

billmi
24 September 2010, 0355
Except for the oddly named grounds (-12V and -72V) which would actually indicated a 24 volt low voltage system and a 144 volt high voltage system, everything looks real good.
Good point. I suppose "Input -" and "Output -" would be more appropriate.


Nice drawing skills!
Thanks :-)


My only question is the power draw across the 1K resistor before you energize the contactor. With all the stuff on the 72V line trying to run, before the conatctor is closed, aren't you going to have a couple problems?.... Kelly's circut that they recomend puts a seperate switch to the controller (not through the contactor) and I'm reasoning that is so the controller is not actually on when you are equalizing the capacitors in it.

That makes sense. I picked up a 12v coil contactor without looking over Kelly's circuit closely, but I e-mailed Kelly asking if that would be a problem - if there was a safety reason that the contactor coil needed to go through the controller to get to pack negative, like an emergency shut-off, and they said no, running it 12v was fine. Looks like I'll need to add another, low amperage 72v load, 12v coil relay in for the other 72v items. I'm thinking a 12v relay also might be in order, so the amperage of the headlight and other 12v accessories isn't being drawn through the keyswitch. That's standard on ICE motorcycles, but I'm not sure how much is due to limited capacity of the keyswitch or because there's a circuit the shuts off the headlight when the starting, so the full power of the battery can be devoted to the starting motor.


i'm with sean on this one. What program did you use?
Adobe Illustrator. Open Office Draw which is free, though (openoffice.org) should be equally capable for this kind of thing.

__Tango
29 September 2010, 2320
Thanks Bill, this was the kick in the pants i needed to work on and do my diagram. I'm attaching it below.

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_1.png

I'm sure there's stuff i've missed or that's just flat out wrong, so let me know! :)

And of course, as of right now, i have 0% of it actually completed. :)

PS, if anyone is wondering, I ended up using OmniGraffle for Mac to make this diagram.

billmi
30 September 2010, 0928
Nicely Drawn, Tango. Hopefully we'll get folks re-posting too, there used to be quite a few schematics posted, and at least for me, seeing more examples, stimulates the thinking.

Interesting take on the 24 and 12v systems. I'd considered (and still am considering) simplifying things with a constant-running DC-DC set-up like that, to eliminate the 12v battery but still have power going for the MiniBMS. On the pro side, it's hauling less around and simpler in design, but on the con side, I see this situation in my head where I can't ride for a while and it drains the batteries - which should take practically forever, but it's a nagging what-if in my head.

__Tango
30 September 2010, 1013
Nicely Drawn, Tango. Hopefully we'll get folks re-posting too, there used to be quite a few schematics posted, and at least for me, seeing more examples, stimulates the thinking.

Thanks. I've been meaning to do a diagram for a while. It's been good to look at your and some others and then to actually draw out all of the details. It helped me get a bunch of things straight in my head.[/quote]


Interesting take on the 24 and 12v systems. I'd considered (and still am considering) simplifying things with a constant-running DC-DC set-up like that, to eliminate the 12v battery but still have power going for the MiniBMS.

Yeah, the main reason i split them into two systems was that there was a thread on the old board where markcycle from enertrac said that the kelly controller works better if it's on its own isolated circuit and not on the same grounded circuit as the rest of the 12V stuff. Since i was going to do a separate circuit for the controller anyway, the Kelly documentation says that 24V is preferred, so i went with a 24V circuit. One thing i'm not sure about is if the MiniBMS control board will be happy with 24V vs. the standard 12V. I've sent mail to Dimitri (the maker of the MiniBMS) to ask. I haven't heard back yet.

I actually worked on the diagram a bit more, so i put up a new one here:
http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_2.png?w=150 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_2.png).
There aren't any major changes, just separated the converters out since i now have acquired the second converter (vs. getting a new combined converter).

Do see anything i'm missing? There's a place for a thermistor in the kelly docs, but i'm not sure i have or need it. :-/

And BTW, let's see some other ones too!

__Tango
01 October 2010, 1427
ok folks. Dimitri Butvinik (maker of the MiniBMS) mentioned a couple of things that needed fixing in the last diagram:


The MiniBMS control board would fry if it ran on the 24V circuit. I originally had it on the 24V circuit because i didn't want it to ground the 24V circuit (the issue with the kelly not wanting to be on the circuit with the rest of the 12V system). However, it turns out that the MiniBMS control board is isolated iteslf, so the B+ and Ign can be hooked up to the 12V line and it won't cause problems.
The relay that spans the 12V and 24V circuits was drawn so both coil contacts were on the same line. One needed to go to ground.
I also noticed myself that the relay that spans the The power input on the controller was "always on". It needed to be run off the line that comes off of the pole of the relay that spans the 12V and 24V circuits.
He said the tyco contactors have builtin diodes, so there was no need for an external one.


Here's the latest version:

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_4.png?w=150 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_4.png)

As always, comments are welcome!

BaldBruce
02 October 2010, 2250
460 Quik copy that needs lots of work, but will give you an idea anyway.

eronsilva
23 October 2010, 1425
These diagrams have the great merit of showing the whole picture of what goes into a conversion. However, a schmuck like me end up with a lot of questions... I understand that these are reposts of previous schematics, lost back when the site went bonkers, and I appreciate you bringing that up again. However, it would be nice if you guys could point us newbies to a construction article, if it exists somewhere, so that I could observe and hopefully not have to bare my ignorance with dumb questions...
Just an opinion, please don't be mad at this old guy!

eronsilva
25 October 2010, 0006
As blindspot suggested, here's a revival of this thread topic.

I'll kick it off with my schematic. [/ATTACH]
Buddy billmi, I have a coupla questions, ok?
1) what does "cell-log MB" mean? is it part of the miniBMS?
2) About the mini-BMS:
a) how many cells per miniBMS?
b) how many control boards?
c) control board used: centralized or distributed?
Thanks!

__Tango
25 October 2010, 0943
I'm not billmi, but i'll try to answer some of your questions


Buddy billmi, I have a coupla questions, ok?
1) what does "cell-log MB" mean? is it part of the miniBMS?


The CellLog units are relatively cheap battery monitoring units that monitor and display individual battery voltages. There was a long thread on endless-sphere (i can't seem to find it right now) about them. There are two version: the '8S', which can monitor 8 cells, has some amount of storage, and a USB connector to download the data to a computer, and the '8M', which also does 8 cells, but doesn't have the storage or USB connection. More info can be found here: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9282&Product_Name=Cell-Log_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2-8S_Lipo, and here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17189


2) About the mini-BMS:
a) how many cells per miniBMS?
b) how many control boards?
c) control board used: centralized or distributed?
Thanks!

I obviously can't tell you about billmi's setup, but the MiniBMS has two methods: distributed (one monitor/shunt board mounted on each cell) or centralized (wires from each cell to an array of monitor/shunt boards in e centralized location). There is always one "control board" per setup. I believe that some of the distributed setups have the monitor/shunt boards and a "control board" on the same physical board.

In my setup, i'm using the distributed version, so i have 36 individual monitor/shunt boards and one control board.

Good luck.

frodus
25 October 2010, 1022
Buy the book: Build Your Own Electric Motorcycle

The use of the Cell logs is for monitring only and does not balance cells. It'l only tell you which ones are low/high. They're some logic circuitry required to get them to disconnect the contactor or set an alarm.

eronsilva
25 October 2010, 1313
505Thank you Tango and Frodus! Slowly I am getting the hand of it.
At the risk of diverting this thread, I will make a question: what do you guys think of a yamaha XJ400 Diversion as donor?
I stumbled at it while browsing a "second-hand everything" site in hebrew. Many guys here post ridiculously low prices just to jolt you on the phone with the question "are you serious about buying?". I find it rude, like the infamous "show me the money" stitch... Anyway, since the bike is from 1993, I called (the guy speaks english... lucky me!) and he answered that the price (around US$400) is right, because... one of the cylinders is cracked (whatever he means by that - I will go see the bike tomorrow). Anyway, I goggled it and found some info, like wheel bearings prone to wear, and "low power (@44HP) compared with the ninja 500 and other competitors at the time, but nothing serious or problematic with the behavior of the bike.
The picture is one I got from the net (and it is a 600, not 400). The site did not let me copy the "actual" girl.
Do you guys have any input to share?

frodus
25 October 2010, 1405
start a thread about your first build.... rather than 2 or 3 different threads. Believe me, it'l be much easier when you finally get down to buying stuff and you don't have to search in 10 places for something :)

billmi
01 December 2010, 1618
Finally sat down to revise my schematic....603

Here/s rev 0.91. I decided to simplify things a bit getting rid of the aux battery, in favor of a DC/DC converter alone for 12v power. I also added another relay so that the 72v to the controller's inputs is switched fully off, while the line to B+ is bridged with a resistor to trickle power into the capacitors.

As always, thoughts, feedback, wacky ideas and catching my mistakes are greatly appreciated.

DaveAK
01 December 2010, 1712
I've been kicking around the pros and cons of DC/DC and/or 12v auxillary battery. I'm planning on doing some tests tonight. I've also started sketching up my wiring diagram, but I need to find a nice, simple and free drawing package to lay it out with.

__Tango
01 December 2010, 1725
I asked this a while back, it basically came down to the fact that if your traction pack goes down for any reason (DC/DC fails, contactor fails, battery short, other shorts, etc) and you don't have a battery, the entire electrical system will go out. The battery is more of an insurance policy so that if primary traction pack fails, you'll still have a working 12V electrical system. Honestly, this doesn't sem like as big of a deal as in a car (power steering/brakes), but it could certainly be an issue.

As for a drawing program, If you use a mac, OmniGraffle is what i used, and there is a trial version you can use.

Good Luck!

jpanichella
01 December 2010, 1750
Finally sat down to revise my schematic....603

Here/s rev 0.91. I decided to simplify things a bit getting rid of the aux battery, in favor of a DC/DC converter alone for 12v power. I also added another relay so that the 72v to the controller's inputs is switched fully off, while the line to B+ is bridged with a resistor to trickle power into the capacitors.

As always, thoughts, feedback, wacky ideas and catching my mistakes are greatly appreciated.

Looks pretty close to what I'm planning. Thanks for sharing this, it will help me tons with my diagram.

DaveAK
19 February 2011, 2053
Here would be my ignition circuit for switching a Vicor DC/DC converter and a MiniBMS charger output.

Edit: Should have completely tested this before posting. It's not ready yet so I've removed the link. :(

podolefsky
20 February 2011, 1639
Mine is on my website, but I just updated it to include the BMS and a few other odds n ends.
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/EducationIssues/podolefsky/EV_project/electric_motorcycle_wiring_series_final_2.png

PDF is available here (http://www.colorado.edu/physics/EducationIssues/podolefsky/EV_project/electric_motorcycle_wiring_series_final_2.pdf).

__Tango
20 February 2011, 2153
Nice Job Noah. I've been trying to figure out a way to get the start switch to work the contactor as well. I may steal some of your ideas. :)

As for my wiring diagrams, I wrote up on my blog a post on the various wiring diagrams that i've been evolving for a while. The posts are located at http://electriceptor.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/wiring-diagrams/ and a second post at http://electriceptor.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/more-wiring-diagrams/. I've used these diagrams as a way to ensure that I understand where everything is going to go, and whenever i change how i think i'm gonna do it, i change the diagram. I'm pretty paranoid about setting fire to the garage, blowing things up, etc. :)

Here's my laatest diagram. I'd love to hear any suggestions. :)

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_162.png?w=700 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_162.png)

podolefsky
20 February 2011, 2232
Nice Job Noah. I've been trying to figure out a way to get the start switch to work the contactor as well. I may steal some of your ideas. :)

No problemo - steal away. I think your Tyco contactor takes 9-36V, so you might not need the 450 Ohm, 20W resistor on the start switch relay. That resistor is there so that the relay only sees 12V across the coil (which is 85 Ohm). Not sure what the Kelly puts out to the contactor coil, you'll just need to choose a resistor value that puts 12V across the relay coil.

Also, the "Armed LED" isn't necessary for the circuit to work - I just have that because I like a visual indicator that the contactor is closed.

__Tango
20 February 2011, 2243
No problemo - steal away. I think your Tyco contactor takes 9-36V, so you might not need the 450 Ohm, 20W resistor on the start switch relay. That resistor is there so that the relay only sees 12V across the coil (which is 85 Ohm). Not sure what the Kelly puts out to the contactor coil, you'll just need to choose a resistor value that puts 12V across the relay coil.

Also, the "Armed LED" isn't necessary for the circuit to work - I just have that because I like a visual indicator that the contactor is closed.

Thanks! I'm still looking over your diagram, so i'm sure i'll have questions later. :)

And I too am looking for a good way to do an "Armed" indicator. So more steal-age may occur... :)

__Tango
22 February 2011, 1951
Noah, also, where'd you get the latching relay? Got a maker and model number handy?

Thanks!

__Tango
22 February 2011, 1954
And even more questions...From your diagram, your key switch can handle 80V? Really? Did you use the original key switch or something else?

frodus
22 February 2011, 2015
you can use one with multiple contacts and have it supply itself power.... so it self latches.

podolefsky
22 February 2011, 2038
Noah, also, where'd you get the latching relay? Got a maker and model number handy?

Thanks!

It's a plain old 12V automotive relay from Radio Shack. It's the circuit that makes it self-latching. Here's a diagram of just the latching relay circuit. The only difference is the 450 Ohm resistor I need to maintain 12V across the relay coil.

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/uploads/C2C_latching_relay_3.gif



And even more questions...From your diagram, your key switch can handle 80V? Really? Did you use the original key switch or something else?

It's the original key switch. It can handle it because the switch doesn't actually see 80V - since the switch has nearly zero resistance, most of the voltage is across everything after the switch(es). Only need to be sure the switch can handle the current, which is pretty small.

soyachips
23 February 2011, 0428
Mine is on my website, but I just updated it to include the BMS and a few other odds n ends.

Hi Noah,

I noticed on your diagram that the DC-DC converter isn't isolated. I decided to use an isolated converter because on my scooter I've got bits of the 12V circuit grounded to the frame. I'm not 100% sure that this is a problem but you might want to double check. Unless you're not using the frame to ground things.

Cheers,
Andrew

podolefsky
23 February 2011, 0843
Hi Noah,

I noticed on your diagram that the DC-DC converter isn't isolated. I decided to use an isolated converter because on my scooter I've got bits of the 12V circuit grounded to the frame. I'm not 100% sure that this is a problem but you might want to double check. Unless you're not using the frame to ground things.

True, it's not isolated. Doesn't seem to have caused any problems so far. The main reason I got it is because it's small, cheap, and does what I need.

frodus
23 February 2011, 0942
It's the original key switch. It can handle it because the switch doesn't actually see 80V - since the switch has nearly zero resistance, most of the voltage is across everything after the switch(es). Only need to be sure the switch can handle the current, which is pretty small.
Before you switch, that other contact is at 80V, the other is at 0V, so yes it is at that potential, although the voltage drop across it once switched is zero. Its not about the resistance, its about the contacts and welding and inrush current.

Yes its two pieces of metal, but it is not rated for 80V. Its rated for 12V and a few amps. At higher voltages (anything over about 48V) there is arcing if the load has not been precharged. Higher voltage contacts are wetted with murcury or made of different materials that can handle the higher voltage and arcing associated. All you need is a few mA to arc at high voltage.

We've discussed this quite a bit here... and a few ways around it..... but it was before you really started posting.

frodus
23 February 2011, 0943
True, it's not isolated. Doesn't seem to have caused any problems so far. The main reason I got it is because it's small, cheap, and does what I need.
be careful working on your 12V system. If you touch 12V ground and accidentally touch any contact on any battery on the HV side, you could get a little zap.

podolefsky
23 February 2011, 1250
Before you switch, that other contact is at 80V, the other is at 0V, so yes it is at that potential, although the voltage drop across it once switched is zero. Its not about the resistance, its about the contacts and welding and inrush current.

Yes its two pieces of metal, but it is not rated for 80V. Its rated for 12V and a few amps. At higher voltages (anything over about 48V) there is arcing if the load has not been precharged. Higher voltage contacts are wetted with murcury or made of different materials that can handle the higher voltage and arcing associated. All you need is a few mA to arc at high voltage.

We've discussed this quite a bit here... and a few ways around it..... but it was before you really started posting.

Travis is absolutely right - when the switch is open, it sees the full 80V. I'll try and find the thread on that...

But having 80V across the switch doesn't mean it will arc. Whether it arcs depends on voltage and separation between the contacts. A 1mm air gap will need about 2000V to arc. At 80V, the contacts would need to be 0.04 mm apart to arc. (The dielectric breakdown of air is about 2MV/m).

When you close a switch, there is a *very* brief time when the contacts are close enough that you can get arcing, and during that brief time you will have power dissipated in the switch (I*V). Switches are rated for voltage and current, so a 12V, 5A switch can handle 60W. You just need to make sure that when you close the switch, it never sees more than 60W. In my system, there is maybe 0.5A going through the key switch - at 80V, that's 40W. Well within the limits.

Anyway, that's my understanding of it - and I've been running it without any issues. But if I'm off base, happy to be educated :)

podolefsky
23 February 2011, 1255
I should add that even if it did exceed the wattage, the thing that is really critical is how much energy needs to be dissipated by heating. If the switch is only in this position for a microsecond or so, then it will easily dissipate that energy before doing any damage.

frodus
23 February 2011, 1300
Sorry, I'm an engineer and used to using things for the rated voltage and currents only. Anything outside that is outside the spec and hasn't been tested. Its just habit. Yes it'l work, but for how long?

The other thread was elmoto v1.0 and got hosed.

I know Ed looked at his 12V switch after running a while and didn't see any problem.

teddillard
23 February 2011, 1311
This thread, was it? http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?193-kill-switch&highlight=kill+switch

That inspired this condensed version: http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/switches-made-simple/

DaveAK
23 February 2011, 1321
I can confirm that a common household light switch which I assume is rated for 110VAC @ 5A can't handle 80VDC @ 3A. :D

frodus
23 February 2011, 1355
then use a relay that can handle 150VDC and 10A on its contacts :)
Tyco KUEP-3D55-12
http://www.sourceresearch.com/Store1/quickstore.cfm?ProductID=24509&do=detail

But since you need 12V to drive it to turn on the DC-DC, which supplies the 12V you're in a pickle right? well, add a really small 12V battery (small UPS battery or a pack of RC car batteries or 4 lifepo4 batteries) and you're good to go. When its off, the draw will be nothing. When its on, you "top off" the batteries. Its nice because its redundant.

I plan on using an aux battery for this reason. The 12V system remains intact and HV stays isolated from my handlebars.

DaveAK
23 February 2011, 1401
then use a relay that can handle 150VDC and 10A on its contacts :)
Tyco KUEP-3D55-12
http://www.sourceresearch.com/Store1/quickstore.cfm?ProductID=24509&do=detail
Was this directed at me? It was only a temporary test for my charger. I just picked up a cheap 75c switch at Home Depot. Wasn't expecting it to last, but was hoping for more than the two clicks I got from it before it welded closed. :D Just thought I'd post some anecdotal evidence about AC vs. DC rated switches.

For the full test at 80V @ 15A I used a 120V water heater element. Got it glowing a very nice red color before it started to droop under it's own weight. :D I didn't use a switch on this one, just unplugged the charger.

podolefsky
23 February 2011, 1403
Sorry, I'm an engineer and used to using things for the rated voltage and currents only. Anything outside that is outside the spec and hasn't been tested. Its just habit. Yes it'l work, but for how long?

The other thread was elmoto v1.0 and got hosed.

I know Ed looked at his 12V switch after running a while and didn't see any problem.


That is a very smart policy. I'm a physicist and once I feel like I understand where the manufacturers ratings come from, I'm OK breaking them. It might get me killed at some point...it wouldn't be the first time that happened to a physicist...the price of progress.

I'm not sure how long it'll work - I'll let you know when it fails.

podolefsky
23 February 2011, 1616
Speaking of physics and arcing...I'm positive this doesn't meet the manufacturer's safety ratings:

http://extremefunnyhumor.com/pics/Faraday_Cage_tested_ok.jpg

soyachips
24 February 2011, 0446
That's amazing! Those ribbons of electricity are quite beautiful ... have to get me one of those thingys on the left to charge up the scooter!

podolefsky
24 February 2011, 1019
That's amazing! Those ribbons of electricity are quite beautiful ... have to get me one of those thingys on the left to charge up the scooter!

That thingy is a Tesla coil...Tesla ruled.

billmi
24 February 2011, 1036
Back in the 80s, I got to know Dave Archer (if you've ever watched Star Trek The Next Generation, about half the paintings on the Enterprise set are his) and spend some time in his studio. Teenager + 3 Million Volt Tesla Coil = Fun. http://www.davearcher.com/Machines.html

ProfTom
15 March 2011, 1052
But since you need 12V to drive it to turn on the DC-DC, which supplies the 12V you're in a pickle right? well, add a really small 12V battery ... and you're good to go. When its off, the draw will be nothing. When its on, you "top off" the batteries. Its nice because its redundant.


The Vicor VI-200 (http://www.vicr.com/cms/home/products/brick/dc-dc_converters) DC/DC converter offers one solution for the 12V Catch-22. This unit has a GATE IN pin that turns the converter on when the pin goes open circuit. We'll be hooking GATE IN to the DPDT key switch. I'm still working on the logic to turn on the DC/DC when the charger is plugged in. Our Vicor should arrive in a few weeks so we'll know if it works as promised.

frodus
15 March 2011, 1111
The Vicor VI-200 (http://www.vicr.com/cms/home/products/brick/dc-dc_converters) DC/DC converter offers one solution for the 12V Catch-22. This unit has a GATE IN pin that turns the converter on when the pin goes open circuit. We'll be hooking GATE IN to the DPDT key switch. I'm still working on the logic to turn on the DC/DC when the charger is plugged in. Our Vicor should arrive in a few weeks so we'll know if it works as promised.

Yeah, essentially what I'm gonna try and do too. DC-DC on when bike is on OR the bike is charging, so the BMS can function correctly. I gotta see if my key switch (stock) has multiple contacts. That'd be nice wouldn't it?

DaveAK
15 March 2011, 1118
My switch didn't have the contacts I needed, unless I switched it to PARK. I bought a key switch that would do it, but ended up going a different route. I'm going to go back to my little ignition circuit when I get the chance. Needs a little rework though.

electriKAT
23 August 2011, 1444
I just wanted to share my wiring diagram. Notice the magic smoke.

HERE (http://xkcd.com/730/)

DaveAK
23 August 2011, 1512
LOL! I particularly liked the 5 ohm decoy. I'm pretty sure most of the circuits I've ever tried to figure out use decoys too. :D

ZoomSmith
23 August 2011, 1637
LOL2. The Holy Water is critical to the success of anything I wire.

__Tango
23 August 2011, 1710
just don't let the holy water out or you'll let the magic smoke out too.

zohargolan
28 October 2011, 2137
HI all,

I've notticed you guys are using the kill switch and sometimes the kickstand and the key switch to control the contactor. Do you think its a good idea to have also the brake switch connected in series to the control?
This way, if the brake is pressed, the motor disengages.

podolefsky
29 October 2011, 1024
HI all,

I've notticed you guys are using the kill switch and sometimes the kickstand and the key switch to control the contactor. Do you think its a good idea to have also the brake switch connected in series to the control?
This way, if the brake is pressed, the motor disengages.

Not really necessary - possibly annoying, since the contactor would be opening/closing every time you hit the brakes.

If you do want something like that, best is probably wiring the brake switch to bypass the throttle input. Or if your controller has a "forward" input pin, make the brake switch disconnect that pin.

On the throttle bypass, with a 5k Ohm throttle you would set it up so that hitting the brake would trigger a relay that shorted the throttle (making is 0 Ohm). My scooter works that way.

But honestly, even that is kind of an annoyance - makes it harder to start on hills, and impossible to do burn outs. :(

billmi
29 October 2011, 1146
HI all,

I've notticed you guys are using the kill switch and sometimes the kickstand and the key switch to control the contactor. Do you think its a good idea to have also the brake switch connected in series to the control?
This way, if the brake is pressed, the motor disengages.

Not with a Kelly controller at least - that would send the controller into an error mode and it would take a few seconds to reset after you let off the brake. It would also make regenerative braking (if your set-up supports it) impossible.

podolefsky
07 November 2011, 1538
Update to my wiring diagram here (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php/874-93-GSX-R-conversion?p=22479&viewfull=1#post22479).

Joe
16 March 2014, 2143
5563
Here is my diagram. Comments? Im not using a BMS (SLA batteries). Sorry for being slightly sloppy.

JoeReal
10 April 2015, 2126
Hey Guys,

I got to a good point in my diagram where I could really use some feedback. This is my first wiring diagram ever, so I know it's rough. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated!

6456

I am installing a 90V Leaf module pack, so I have some questions-
First off, should the drawing work? Lol
I have it set up for 72V right now, will I need to change the precharge resistor?
Will the SW200 solenoid still work? Its a 72v coil :/
What size wires should I use for the motor and controller?
What size auxiliary wires should I use?
What amp rated switches should I look for?
Anything suggestions would be really appreciated

Thanks,
Joe

JoeReal
11 April 2015, 0757
Hey Podolefsky,

First I want to say thank you. I would be completely lost if it were not for all the, incredible, information you post here.

Is this kinda what you were talking about (4 years ago, lol)
I am trying to figure out a way to bypass the throttle while parked or during braking.

6457

Would there be any concern with bypassing the throttle, then reengaging it while at, lets say, 50% throttle?

Thanks again!
Joe

Lunchbag
12 April 2015, 1954
I have the same battery pack, motor, controller, and contactor, and I have had no problems with the SW200 operating at 90V with the 1k pre-charge resistor. Also, the SW200 contacts are rated for 96VDC.

The high-current cables should be at least 4 AWG per the AXE diagram. Iím using 2 AWG. The other wires can be pretty small, just add up the load on each circuit and look in a chart to ensure youíre not exceeding current for that gauge. I think you could safely use 18 AWG in general, but you should compute the load to be sure.

Your drawing depicts the same thickness lines going to the converter as those depicting the drive path (high current path). Of course these wires to the converter can be much smaller than the cables, but again I would say size the wire for the max load. If unsure, be a little conservative.

You wonít have a problem with the amp rating of your switches (Key sw, Acc. sw, EM Push sw) but it looks like you have them on the high voltage side. So you will have the same problem as everyone else in exceeding the voltage rating of the OEM switches, and the difficulty of finding available substitutes. I used a relay with 12V coil and high voltage-rated contacts to solve the problem (i.e. Ė to keep my OEM key switch and run switch on the 12V side), but I had an unswitched 12V output with which to activate the DC/DC enable, to turn on the switched output. I donít know if yours works that way.

The AXE diagram includes a reverse protection diode upstream of the contactor coil.

Iím curious about how many ME1003 users have a cooling fan. My impression is most donít need it.

Your diagram says 12 leaf modules but you meant 11.

Where did you find the 90V and 500A max specs for the ME1003?

I think the kickstand switch makes sense, but I donít understand the bypass resistor. I thought you wanted to short the throttle signal.

I'm having a harder time figuring out when the hand brake throttle cutout feature is really helpful. Also, are you using the same hand brake switch as the one that activates the brake light? If so, what is the effect of the 12V across the switch (when open) on the throttle circuit?

I think overall your diagram is almost complete. Pretty cool that you laid it out with the components where they would be on the bike.

JoeReal
13 April 2015, 0744
I have had no problems with the SW200 operating at 90V with the 1k pre-charge resistor.

Awesome; great to know.



jThe high-current cables should be at least 4 AWG per the AXE diagram. Iím using 2 AWG.

I am using 4awg, but thing I'm going to upgrade to 2 awg, since I have to add the 4' coil that they recommend.
I used 16 awg for the auxiliary wiring.


You will have the same problem as everyone else in exceeding the voltage rating of the OEM switches.

I had an unswitched 12V output with which to activate the DC/DC enable, to turn on the switched output. I donít know if yours works that way.

I am not using any original electrical components so I can just get all >90v rated switches.

The only component I have yet to buy is the converter, so I will take a look at the one you have.



The AXE diagram includes a reverse protection diode upstream of the contactor coil.

Ordered, thanks :)





Your diagram says 12 leaf modules but you meant 11.

You're right



Where did you find the 90V and 500A max specs for the ME1003?

Since people use the motor at 90v and the max 1 min amperage is 500, I just put it for reference.



I think the kickstand switch makes sense, but I donít understand the bypass resistor. I thought you wanted to short the throttle signal.

I was trying to understand what they were talking about with the bypass resistor. I like the idea of the system being on, but the throttle not being active when the kickstand is down; also I like the idea that I cut current to the motor when I pull the brake. Not really needed, but seems practical.



I think overall your diagram is almost complete. Pretty cool that you laid it out with the components where they would be on the bike.

Thanks!

Seriously, thank you for your help. I tried to do my research before posting,

My leaf modules will be here this week! Can't wait. Not going to install them until I get the bike registered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

podolefsky
14 April 2015, 2005
Hey Joe, Just saw your post to me, sorry I didn't see it earlier.

On the throttle switch - like I said 4 years ago, I wouldn't do it. It will be annoying not being able to apply a little throttle with the brake still on sometimes. And holding the throttle on while braking, except if you mean to, isn't a good habit. Learn to close the throttle when you brake.

If you really want it, you should be fine. No resistor - just make the switch short pins 2 and 3 together when the brake is on.

On the kickstand switch - not a bad safety idea. I would wire that in the way Alltrax shows the "foot-switch" in their wiring diagram. That will keep the controller off and contactor open until you raise the kickstand, safer overall than just bypassing the throttle.

http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-047-A_DWG-AXE-PermMag-wire-dia.pdf

mistercrash
29 August 2015, 0654
Hi everyone,
I hope you can understand my drawing, I am no electrical engineer so I just drew it so I can understand it, I hope you do too. This is for my little scooter I use for my commute. The controller will be a Kelly KLS7250D. From the instructions, the Kelly has a pink wire for power. A Kelly representative told me that the pink wire should be on 24V-72V and he suggested to have it on 72V so that is what I did on the drawing. I wish I could start everything with the turn key but I can't figure out how. I don't want the key on more than 12V but the only way I can think of is to have the DC/DC always on. I put a connector so that I can turn off the DC/DC if I need to. Not sure what to use for a main fuse at the battery yet. There is a boost feature on the controller and I thought of using one of the two buttons I have for the horn but not sure if it's a good idea.

Please point out any mistakes you see and suggestions on how to make it better.

Thanks
Ray

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w202/mistercrash1964/Motorino/XPn%20wiring%20diagram_with_kelly_ca1_zpsc25qvreu. jpg~original

Hugues
29 August 2015, 0815
Hi Ray,

Is the Anderson connector your kill switch ? Normally your kill switch should be a button easily reachable with your thumb.

mistercrash
29 August 2015, 1054
No the Anderson connector is there to disconnect the DC/DC from the battery if I need to. I'm ashamed to say I don't have a kill switch in my drawing, what kind of switch should I be using? And is it to kill power to the motor or the controller or to kill power to the whole system?

Thanks
Ray

Hugues
30 August 2015, 0354
To avoid bringing high voltage to your handlebars, you should use a 12 V relay. The low voltage side would be interrupted by your switch on your handlebars , and the other side of the relay would interrupt.... Well...there is a long thread about this on the forum, search for a post I started, called kill contactor or controller... Something like this.

Myself I use a double relay that interrupts the power to my contactor and the power to my controller. As per advise of supplier.

mistercrash
30 August 2015, 0707
I only have the 13.5V power from the DC/DC coming to the key switch in front of the bike close to the handle bars, the key will power the 12V contactor powering up the controller as well as the 12V system for lights. Could that be used as my kill switch? Or I could use a thumb switch I have that is not installed on the handle bars right now but it goes right next to the throttle. What if I plug it in series with my key switch. There would not be high power to the handle bars.

Thanks
Ray

I edited my drawing in the post above.

tomdb
30 August 2015, 0713
BTW what kind of charging plug are you using? I would never use a "male" plug for something that is live even when disconnected. Anything between terminals will short the battery.
You will always have an "active" hv system fused by your charge resistor when the contactor is off. So an emergency stop should be connected to the kelly, they should have pins for that.
The pink wire has to be switched. As of now your kelly is ALWAYS on.

mistercrash
30 August 2015, 1519
BTW what kind of charging plug are you using? I would never use a "male" plug for something that is live even when disconnected. Anything between terminals will short the battery.
You will always have an "active" hv system fused by your charge resistor when the contactor is off. So an emergency stop should be connected to the kelly, they should have pins for that.
The pink wire has to be switched. As of now your kelly is ALWAYS on.

This drawing is a modified version of the one I got from the manufacturer of the scooter. I did not change the image of the charging plug that was originally used so I will change the drawing as it is not what I will use to charge. I know enough I hope not to hurt myself in doing this project but I am just entering the realm of electric motorcycles so I have a lot to learn and I want to do things right. I will look into the instructions again for the pins you talk about to use an emergency stop. The pink power wire has to be on 24V to 72V I was told by Kelly sales person, he suggested to use 72V. I found it difficult to find a switch for 72V DC.

EDIT: I think the best way for me to figure this out is to start my own thread and maybe some of you can guide me in that thread.

Thanks
Ray

mcf12
09 January 2017, 1815
For those wiring on board chargers, does wiring on the battery side of your contactor make a difference? I had last build that way, but I am not sure I want to have to have the contactor closed for charging? Charger and bms will be in charge of cutting things off if it gets fishy, but I might be forgetting something obvious.

thx!

podolefsky
09 January 2017, 2332
For those wiring on board chargers, does wiring on the battery side of your contactor make a difference? I had last build that way, but I am not sure I want to have to have the contactor closed for charging? Charger and bms will be in charge of cutting things off if it gets fishy, but I might be forgetting something obvious.

thx!


Wire the charger directly to the battery, not through the contactor. It's actually better if the charger isn't connected to the controller when charging. If you want an extra safety let the BMS cut off power to the charger with a relay on the AC input.

Skahle
10 January 2017, 0008
I used one of these solid state relays on the charger port to let the BMS shutoff charge current. The charger sees the current drop to zero and shuts down.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/crydom-co/D1D20/CC1038-ND/7525