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View Full Version : Optimum settings Kelly KHB 14301 with Enertrac MH602 mot + 2p48s Headway 40152s pack



ardhout
06 April 2014, 0551
Hello everybody,

I would like to know what the optimum settings are for my Kelly controller type KHB 14301.

Controller: 150 Amp rated current, 300 Amp peak at 144 Volt.
Motor: Enertrac MH602 hub motor, rated power 10kW, peak power 30kW
Batteries: 96 Headway 40152s cells of 15Ah, 2p/48s = 30Ah, 144Volt

Reason for asking this is:
A) Not much documentation and theories behind settings in the Kelly software is available
B) My bike seems to take quite a lot of current and I'm worried about my batteries in the long run.

See my building thread for general info:
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?1417-Suzuki-GSX-750-99-conversion/page8

At 80km/hr: current draw is around 150Amps. (5C)
Times 142Volts(actual voltage) = 21.3kW
Idle voltage = 155Volt, so voltage sag is around 13V/48=0,27Volt/cell.

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I have made 4 screen shots of the software settings, with some questions below:
Step 1:
- Max. Motor Current[4]: 100% = 150Amps
- Max. Battery Current [5]: = 50% - I don't know exactly what 50% means, till this moment I still can draw 200+ Amps from the battery when going over 90km/hr.

Step 2:
- Control mode = Torque: What will be better to reduce battery current at higher speed? Torque or Speed or Balanced?
I found out that in Speed mode, at low speeds, currents can rise up till 200amps easily, acceleration is quicker, and motor noises (cogging) is more loud and 'raw' sounding then in torque mode.

Step 3:
- Motor top speed[1] = 70%:
I suspect my pack voltage of 144V is the reason of the high current draw, originally my plan was to be able to run 120+km/hr with my bike, so that's why I opted for 144Volt. Decreasing to 70% did not give any result till now but maybe I still didn't run at full speed (I'm a bit afraid of the high current draw on the cells)

Step 4:
- Regen function in general:
I can only regen a little bit, in the range of 10-30/40Amps, it's very fluctuating and shortly after that the controller will stop Regen. I read somewhere that the controller is monitoring max. voltage during regen (overvoltage[4] setting on screen 2??) and if it becomes too high, it will stop the regen.
My question is: does regen work well with a Hub motor or it's the same as any other motor?

Thanks in advance,
Ardjan

markcycle
06 April 2014, 0809
Something is not right
If you were really using 21.3Kw The motor would shut down on over temp or burn out
I'd start by calibrating the method you're using to measure current.

ardhout
06 April 2014, 0833
Hello Mark,
I'm using a cycle analyst at the moment, but will measure with a separate amp-meter this week.
The longest test-run I did till now is 5 minutes and yes, after 5 minutes acc+dec+90km/hr, the motor already gets a bit hot, I guess around 50 degr. but I will measure that too.
I remember from your docs that you used 106 Wh/Mi, that's 66 Wh/km, compared to my 150Wh/km, I'm still confused.

Nuts & Volts
07 April 2014, 1834
Your kelly settings are probably just fine. I think your cycle analyst shunt value is incorrect.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

ardhout
09 April 2014, 0857
I think your cycle analyst shunt value is incorrect.
Yes I thought so too, in my diagram I wrote 0.5mOhm, CA value was set at 0.025mOhm, but what I see now is that charge current is 5A and in my CA I see 2-2.5Amp.
Also I forgot where I bought the shunt.


I'd start by calibrating the method you're using to measure current.
Yes, I will check how long it takes to charge the pack till full again and compare that to the Amp/hour I used.

Anybody a good idea how to measure mOhms?

Nuts & Volts
09 April 2014, 0936
Just send a fixed current across the shunt and measure the mV drop across the shunt is my best idea. Some shunts are labeled.

If your CA is reading charge current low then you need to decrease your mOhm setting until the current matches

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

ardhout
10 April 2014, 0940
Ok, after having done a few testdrives to and back from work, this are the average readings;
3-4 km's are in the city, the rest is regional road, max. speed 80-90km/hr.

- distance: 13km
- 12 Ah / 1847 Watt-hrs
- 139 Wh/km
- Max. speed: 103 km/hr, AvgS: 54km/hr, Time: 14m

I thought I could drive further but it seems that my range is limited to 30 kilometers, with a 4.5kWh battery pack a bit disappointing.

But driving experience is good, even when riding 80km/hour, when I open the throttle, the motor really picks up well :D

Nuts & Volts
10 April 2014, 1220
is your units and wheel circumference set correctly in the CA? 222 wh/mile 33mph is absurd.

Is your motor or controller getting super hot? I'm worried that if you are actually drawing that much power that you are going to damage something.

markcycle
10 April 2014, 1235
is your units and wheel circumference set correctly in the CA? 222 wh/mile 33mph is absurd.

Is your motor or controller getting super hot? I'm worried that if you are actually drawing that much power that you are going to damage something.

At 222 wh/mile meltdown is in about 5 minutes maybe 7 minutes no way you did 30Km averaging that kind of power level. Where is the heat going??

ardhout
10 April 2014, 1329
Found out that the shunt is 0.5mOhm, so I set it in the CA.
Speed is 100% correct, I checked it with a GPS.
When I drove that distance and spend the 12Ah, it also took me almost 2 hour to charge full again with my 5Ah charger, which also seems to fit into the story.
When I drive 33mph, the current is not high, maybe only 50Amp/7.5kW, but it increases till around 100amp/15kW at 50mph and when I drive 60mph the current will reach 150A/22kW. So it's not a straight line but seems to increase exponential.
The motor was a bit smelly (first time use...) but not extremely hot, I could still hold my hand against it.


At 222 wh/mile meltdown is in about 5 minutes maybe 7 minutes no way you did 30Km averaging that kind of power level. Where is the heat going??
I only drive 13km per time, and 9 km of them are with higher speed (between 50-60mph).
Unfortunately I still can't find a good display to measure the KTY84-130 sensor inside the motor.

markcycle
10 April 2014, 1528
With the rear wheel off the ground what is the no load amps at full speed

ardhout
13 April 2014, 2253
With the rear wheel off the ground what is the no load amps at full speed
No load at full speed is around 15A.

Yesterday test results: max. speed: 120kph ;)

This morning I drove again to work, gentle accelerations, with a tailwind, and never faster then 80kph (with 80kph power was 10kW)
Start temperature: 15 degr.C (904Ohm)
End temperature: 65 degr.C (1355Ohm)
Consumption: 10Ah / 1492Whrs / 115 Wh/km
Regen 0.7% useless, Amax 191A, Vmin 142V
Max.Speed 84.7, Avg.Speed 57.3, Time:13min.

Funny to see when I drove 80km/hr, at 10kWh the temperature stabilized at 55 degr.C (because of speed and cold air temperature), but when I decelerated till 30km/hr the temperature suddenly rises till 65 degr.C, even with very little current in the motor.
So cooling is quite important.

ardhout
14 April 2014, 1017
This afternoon back home, with heavy front wind, not faster as 80kph (with 80kph power was 12-13kW)
Start temperature: 16 degr.C
End temperature: 79 degr.C
Consumption: 12.5Ah / 1811W-hrs / 141Wh/km
Max. speed: 80kph, Avg.speed: 57.5 kph, Time: 13min.

Bike weight: 190kg, incl. myself: 270kg.

So I'm lucky I can make one round trip to work, with discharging batteries at 3C and cold weather I think theoretical power left is less then 25% (22,5Ah from 30Ah)

Doctorbass
15 June 2014, 2122
This afternoon back home, with heavy front wind, not faster as 80kph (with 80kph power was 12-13kW)
Start temperature: 16 degr.C
End temperature: 79 degr.C
Consumption: 12.5Ah / 1811W-hrs / 141Wh/km
Max. speed: 80kph, Avg.speed: 57.5 kph, Time: 13min.

Bike weight: 190kg, incl. myself: 270kg.

So I'm lucky I can make one round trip to work, with discharging batteries at 3C and cold weather I think theoretical power left is less then 25% (22,5Ah from 30Ah)

All your Wh per km are really high at those speed!!

For exemple, My Zero S 2012 consume about half Wh as your Emoto consume!

My friend Jean Luc and me built a GSX-R1100 with the Dual Enertrack MH0602 and a Kelly 144V 600A and 48s2p of A123 20Ah pouches. His GSX work great but the phase current is really high during low speed. We had alot of problems with the enertrac motor and the Kelly. We finally reduced the phase current wich carsu low speed torque to decrease as well and it work better. Our Wh/km are about 60% of what you measure with yours.

did you check the hall sensor to ensure they are all OK ? are your phase connections OK compare to the Hall connection? The C-A IS the best device to have.

Check our build: http://www.evalbum.com/3931

and some video:
http://youtu.be/pK0Hd7Z7peg


http://youtu.be/pZ7NxaLLunA


http://youtu.be/MtnL1wgE7XY


http://youtu.be/KsxffDALORA


http://youtu.be/6GYH97tz8pU



Many other video of this motor test are availlable on his youtube channel.



Doc

piwhy
18 June 2014, 0606
Hello Ardhout,

I'm also really surprised by your consumption results !
I'm using an Enertrac hub motor for more than 2 years now and i never obtained these consumption.
I drove more than 5500km (2000km with a classic MH602 hub + KHB12401 conroller and then 3500km with the MH602 liquid cooled version + KHB12601 controller). My current Kelly settings are : Mot. current : 90% ; Batt. current : 65% ; Mot. speed : 100%.
My bike weigh 200kg all included ; 270kg with me. My total average consumption is between 50 and 55Wh/km. I'm able to reach 40-45Wh/km with a very soft driving and on the other hand I get 65-70Wh/km with an agressive driving.
You can find more informations about my bike here : http://www.evalbum.com/4246
Don't hesitate to ask me if you need more informations...

PY