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__Tango
03 October 2010, 2115
Hey there.

The Kelly Brushless controller (KBL/KBLI) documentation (http://www.newkellycontroller.com/mot/downloads/KellyKBLI_KHB_HPUserManual.pdf) says that you can run the contactor coil off of the J1-3 wire (page 12). However, the diagrams that they show in the docs (pages 14 and 15) don't show the contactor being driven off of that wire.

It seems like a good idea to run the contactor off of the controller because in case of a fault in the controller, the controller can shutdown the contactor. However, on the flip side, it seems like this could cause another place for a problem to occur.

What do you think? Anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks!

billmi
04 October 2010, 0608
You might ask Kelly.
I've got a brushed controller on the way from them, and I asked them if it was important to have the contactor wired through the controller, or if using a 12v contactor controlled separately would by-pass an important safety feature (like the controller being able to cut-off the contactor) and they said no, wiring it separate was fine.

seanece
04 October 2010, 0613
By documentation, it looks like you should stick to the schematic. The Kilovac EV200 is becoming the predominate contactor for HV EV applications. If this contactor is used, pin 3 could not supply the proper power to close the contactor.

I would follow up with Kelly because on page 3....
"(13) Main contactor driver. Cutting off the power if any fault is detected."

Without any definitive support/schematics for pin 3, I would stick to the schematic for now. If the controller is as intelligent as it says, it should turn off if it senses a fault anyways.

Happy Hunting!

frodus
04 October 2010, 0842
Most of the higher end controllers (Curtis AC, Zilla, Synkromotive, Azure, etc) all control their own contactors.

If you want, make the controller control a relay and put the contacts in series with the power for the coil, that way there's no issue with not having enough power for the coils.

__Tango
04 October 2010, 0902
If this contactor is used, pin 3 could not supply the proper power to close the contactor.

Sean, why do you say that? The contactor specs say it only requires 9V to close (my setup should be 24V), and 0.07A. The kelly docs say <1A for pin3.

Thanks for the info, based on you and bill's comments, i'll fire off an email to kelly.

seanece
04 October 2010, 1001
???

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf

In rush will probably be around 2 Amps and holding current is 60mA - 70mA. Just sayin' the momentary in-rush can be wicked unless you know the electronics in the Kelly can definitely handle the brief current.

Worst case scenario if you REALLY want to use that pin, use Frodus' idea.

Good luck. I am very interested to hear what Kelly has to say.

P.S. Also, beware some Kelly's have zero strain relief on the wires inside the controller. I believe this problem is most likely on the brushed controllers but just food for thought in case the controller ever starts acting wonky.

P.S.S. "Wonky" is a very technical term. See it in my books all the time.

__Tango
06 October 2010, 1320
Hey there.

I did receive some information back from Kelly.

A very similar question was asked on endless-sphere (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11011&sid=0c85c843209d247c5219a7ea81facae0&start=15), but that was a KD controller, not a KBL.

In any case, turns out the pin J1-3 (MAIN RLY) is actually a line that has a Normally Open switch to RTN/Ground. When the controller is operating, the switch is closed, so the circuit is completed. This means that J1-3 (MAIN RLY) does not provide any power at all. Also, i had previously thought that you would wire the contactor between the J1-3 (MAIN RLY) wire and one of the RTN/Ground wires. The proper configuration is to wire the contactor between the J1-3 (MAIN RLY) wire and one of the two PWR wires (J1-1 or J2-1, actually, i guess this means you could go straight from the power source as well). So, there will be enough power to power the contactor coil for sure, however the inrush current issue still is unanswered. I have asked kelly about this issue.

BTW, In the endless sphere thread, there was some talk about using an EV200 would not work properly because of the economizer on the coil. I don't know if that is an issue with this controller, but i have asked Kelly about this as well. I'll report back when i get the info.

Thanks guys.

frodus
06 October 2010, 1446
it may not provide POWER on that pin, but it provides a path to ground and that path has a current specification. In the manual, it says 1A (from what you guys have said). That contactor can have several AMPS of inrush current in order to close. It has little to do with voltage, it has to do with the current. The NO switch is actually a FET inside, with a current maximum. Go over that rating and it can/will fail.

I know the EV200 doesn't work with the Curtis AC drives, because the PWM doesn't like the economizer. I think kelly uses the same idea, since it uses pack voltage (PWR) and grounds the other side. You can't use the EV200, you need an LEV200 without economizer.

__Tango
06 October 2010, 1504
it may not provide POWER on that pin, but it provides a path to ground and that path has a current specification. In the manual, it says 1A (from what you guys have said). That contactor can have several AMPS of inrush current in order to close. It has little to do with voltage, it has to do with the current. The NO switch is actually a FET inside, with a current maximum. Go over that rating and it can/will fail.


Cool. Thanks travis. I've asked kelly for further information about this, so i'll let you know when they get back to me.


I know the EV200 doesn't work with the Curtis AC drives, because the PWM doesn't like the economizer. I think kelly uses the same idea, since it uses pack voltage (PWR) and grounds the other side. You can't use the EV200, you need an LEV200 without economizer.

On the endless-sphere thread, there was talk about the KD controller has a configurable (via the config utility) duty cycle for the MAIN RLY pin, and the thought was that migh be able to allow the KD controller to use the EV200. I don't see the equivalent option in the KBL controller setup utility.

If push comes to shove and this won't work at all, i won't connect the contactor to the controller at all. I'll set it up like the schematics in the docs show.

Thanks.

frodus
06 October 2010, 1558
wow, that schematic is kinda screwed up.

they show the DC-DC output going through the keyswitch and wired to pin 1, which is labeled as an output on J1, but input on J2. Which is it, input or output? (I'm assuming its an input).

The first part of the manual states 10-30V input..... very confusing.


Basically, it looks like it'l work since you aren't using the contactor driver (pin 3, J1) and you're basically using the 12V straight off the 12V DC-DC converter to supply both the contactor and the controller.

__Tango
06 October 2010, 2357
wow, that schematic is kinda screwed up.

they show the DC-DC output going through the keyswitch and wired to pin 1, which is labeled as an output on J1, but input on J2. Which is it, input or output? (I'm assuming its an input).

In one of the notes earlier in the document (page 13), it says:



Two PWR pins, J1-1 and J2-1, are internally connected. It’s recommended to use J1-1 to supply peripherals like alarm and contactor. Twist peripheral wires with PWR is the preferred for EMC. Recirculation diodes are provided in the controller to PWR for alarm and Contactor coil driver.




Basically, it looks like it'l work since you aren't using the contactor driver (pin 3, J1) and you're basically using the 12V straight off the 12V DC-DC converter to supply both the contactor and the controller.

I was originally planning on doing this (similar to their drawing), but now i'm thinking i'll run the contactor "driver" (which as stated in my previous post as well as on that endless-sphere thread referenced earlier), is actually the switch (FET) to ground.

__Tango
07 October 2010, 0009
I just got some email from the person i've been emailing Kelly (someone named Fany). Here's what they have to say:




For the contactor i'm using (EV200), the specifications say that the inrush on the coil may be up to 2 amps for 130ms. Will this inrush cause problems with the controller?
2A shouldn't be a problem.You may try it first.Or you can use RTN instead


This contactor has an economizer on the coil. If i wire the contactor between J1-1 and J1-3, will the economizer on the coil cause any problems?
The economizer is included in the contactor.It is none of busniess with the controller opeartion.It is OK.


So, it not the most decisive answer possible (about the inrush), but it looks like they're saying the EV200 will work with this controller and I can run it where the contactor is wired between the J1-1 (Power) and J1-3 (MAIN RLY or "Driver") as in this wiring diagram:

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_10.png?w=150 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/electriceptorwiringdiagram3-v1_10.png)

I'll probably give it a shot. At least now i have email proof that I can bring to kelly if the controller gets fried due to the inrush to hopefully get a replacement. :)

BTW, Fany has also been looking over my diagram and has offered some other things to fix. He (or she) has mostly given the thumbs up. If you're interested, i'll post the entire thread i've had with Kelly.

Thanks.

frodus
07 October 2010, 1101
It sounds just fine. As long as you get their blessing, you should be ok.

If there is ANY sort of PWM on the return, it likely won't work with the EV200 contactor. Its the same problem us Curtis AC guys have, Can't use an EV200 contactor with a PWM signal.

billmi
07 October 2010, 1153
But you shouldn't need to, as the function of the controller PWMing the return is already being taken care of by the coil economizer built into the EV200, right?

__Tango
07 October 2010, 1438
It sounds just fine. As long as you get their blessing, you should be ok.

If there is ANY sort of PWM on the return, it likely won't work with the EV200 contactor. Its the same problem us Curtis AC guys have, Can't use an EV200 contactor with a PWM signal.

This is good to know. If it acts wonky (see sean's definition of wonky earlier), i'll just swap it to not run off of the controller.

__Tango
07 October 2010, 1439
But you shouldn't need to, as the function of the controller PWMing the return is already being taken care of by the coil economizer built into the EV200, right?

Yep...well that's the thought at least.