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T Rush
04 March 2018, 1536
anyone out there ever electrified or know what the Derbi Senda X-Treme SM 50 is ?
https://www.ultimatespecs.com/motorcycles-specs/derbi/derbi-senda-x-treme-50-sm-2008

http://www.motorcycledb.com/images/Derbi/Derbi-Senda-Supermotard-9453.jpg
it looks small, but its actually pretty tall like a normal supermotard/dirt bike, has 17" wheels...however only a little over 200lbs

a few years ago I saw an ad for one on Craig's List, and didn't know anything about them...so called the guy
...the price was very low, and the guy said he had it in the back of his truck...if I wanted to see it, he could stop by my house right then and there
next thing I know, he was lifting the thing out of his truck and carrying it(by himself) up into my driveway...I said: "it looks like it will roll?"
he said: "eh, it dont way nut'en"(this is Iowa, and he was a big ol' farm boy) "get on'her an have a go...she'd look lik it'd fit'cha better dan me"

I already had 3 other motorcycles then(up to 8 now counting this one) and my Wife was out of town...so I jumped right on this crazy thing, fired it up on the second kick, and took off to run my little local test loop....came back and my ears were ringing, but had the biggest smile stuck on my face so that my teeth had dried out...was trying to quickly get off the bike so I could run inside and grab my cash, but the kick stand had fallen off on my test ride(I had forgotten to put it up, so knocked it off on the first corner, and didn't even know it) so I zipped back out on the Derbi and found it in the middle of the street...I said: "well, I guess I have to buy it now"


anyway, it came with a moped title, as it was supposed to have a 50cc and been limited to 30mph...but he had stuck a 80cc Kawasaki engine in there to try and help pull his size around(said he didn't have the Derbi engine anymore)... so I had to title it as a motorcycle, as I have gotten it up to 60mph a few times....but not long ago I started with recovering the seat, painting the fairings, and wanting to 'clean up' the kinda hack job he did on the motor swap
....I've always wanted to build an EV 'car'....but now we have been leasing a 2016 Leaf(my Wife loves that car)....so I starting looking at my Derbi again, thinking now batteries are lighter and can power a big eBike or small motorcycle(the Derbi is right in-between the two)


thanks for having me...and tons of questions will be coming
(like 'how many modules can I take out of my Wife's Nissan before she notices?' hehe)

T Rush
05 March 2018, 1856
I'll tell you more about my plan...at least my early first ideas(which likely will change with more research/help)


* I'd like this to mostly run 'sporty' @ lower city speeds 0~35mph...so gear reduction for that?

* commute range is not large:
... 3.5miles from my home to my shop(7 miles round trip, tho I'd be able to charge at either end)
... 9miles out to the marina from home(we keep our 30' cabin-cruiser in a slip out there, so I do have power and I would be able to ride it out on the dock to the boat)

so those requirements are really fine for a small electric motorcycle?


however: on both commutes, there are 1~3 mile stretches where the speed limit gets up to 55mph
...and esp. on the mile or so stretch out to my shop, its a killer as people tailgate you like crazy unless you are going more than 60mph(even if I'm pulling a trailer with crap falling off) as that road connects the city with the interstate(I-80) and then goes out to a smaller town that people zip back and forth to as fast as they can

...also I'd like a pretty good 'run time'...it would be great to 'play' on it for an hour without recharging

ok, so thats where this gets harder:
* as while 'range' isn't so important, i dont want to have to charge after every 20min.
* and it might be nice that this bike was originally designed and built for spirited low speeds, I'm gonna still need to 'kick it into high gear' and make a run for it to get out of peoples way on the highway



as for parts I'm looking at lower cost and ease of use, as well as doing a pretty simple build
...this will be my first adventure into DIY EV, so I want it to be as straight forward as possible and achievable

* battery cell modules
seems like I have to use the recovered Nissan Leaf modules
people seem to love these, but I wont have tons of space to fit a big 'block' or stack of them(but I have an idea on how to arrange them in the Derbi) so while using a bunch 18650 cells stuck together would be great, weigh less, fit better; I just dont want to spend all my time~energy figuring that all out
... so 9 Leaf modules for 63~75volts ?

* motor
looking at the goldenmotor HPM3000B
these seem small, light, and I think I've seen them installed in bikes of this size...not sure if I'll need to water cool it or not
price is right at only ~$300...and it might even be more powerfull than the 8.5hp 50cc engine the Derbi used
... so 3KW(6KW peak) 72volt 5000rpm ?

* controller
goldenmotor has the VEC200/72Vdc sine wave controller at $260 to go with that motor, so I just use that ?
https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm


I dont think I'll need a BMS(I guess I can just manually check each module?) but Contactor and Fuse, twist throttle ...gonna have to do some wild wiring if the Leaf battery modules aren't in a neat stack

and I dont know about a charger(but I think it would be cool to use the Nissan 120v charging cord/brick the Leaf comes with, and the standard plug they use at charging stations)...seen those on eBay, and it would be nice to have another one for the car...but can I get it to work on the Derbi ?

DC to DC 12v and 5v (yeah, and LED lights) , also one of those Cycle Analyst meter things


one of the interesting things Im thinking of doing is the drive-train, I'd might even change to belt(s), as to get the Leaf modules in: I'm looking at moving the motor up under the seat, just behind the top shock mount...then run a pulley system down to a cross shaft, and that shaft goes over to the normal front sprocket location and belt or chain to the rear wheel....this would give me the proper gearing ...and/or it might be nice to install a 2 or 3 speed transmission vs direct connection or with that single speed cross-shaft
hmmm ?

Stevo
07 March 2018, 1105
This is the perfect size bike for a little ME0909 motor and AXE4834. Get 3 Nissan leaf modules and a can opener, rewire the cells in series and that little bike will rip! (Bad choice of words...errr... I mean tear it up!)

Warning! Don't over volt that motor! It will RIP!!

Those goldenmotors look interesting and keep us posted if you go that route. This can be a very interesting build indeed!!

T Rush
09 March 2018, 0208
This is the perfect size bike for a little ME0909 motor and AXE4834. ...
oh, so that motor is down to 6"OD...that might fit just alittle nicer than the 7.5"OD HPM3000B which is gonna be real tight in the spot I'm looking at(up high, under the seat, rear of the mono shock, where the air box is for the ICE)...does the Motenergy transfer more power than the Golden? (i cant tell, as one rates the specs in "HP" and the other in "Nm" and "KW", which I'm struggling to compare those terms)


so I pulled the chassis out today, found my tape measure, and a piece of cardboard about the size of a Leaf module(I'll cut some Styrofoam blocks to size for a better mock-up) ....just to see if I was anywhere close in my brain to what could really fit.....some things will work better than I thought(like I can have 4 models wide within the frame where I thought only 3 could go), and the pulley system from the motor down to the drive sprocket cross shaft(or trans) looked good to run in-between the mono shock and inside the frame...but, where I gained space for one more module in width down low where the ICE is(and those 3 or now 4 would almost completely fill that area, with just enough room for a controller, and no room for the motor as I thought) I do not have the space to fit 6 more up higher in/around the frame more towards the front....ok then, maybe only another 4 might sorta fit there near the steering head(2 mostly inside the twin spar frame straddling the center down tube single cradle, the other 2 outside the frame high up just under the radiator shroud fairings)....that means only 8 modules(67.2volts max)....so I think I could add 2 more modules back under the rear fender side shroud things(whatever you call those)....I kinda didn't want to add more weight(going up to 10 vs 9 modules) and I dont need more volts(aiming for 72v system), and I dont want to bust the modules open(as at least 50ah for run time preferred) so maybe I can just run the 10th module in parallel for greater amp hours ? at the same ~72volts with 9s + 1p ...is that how it works

(kinda found a cool place for an on-board charger that might work...but it is a very small bike so I might be asking too much from it, and would rather take advantage of its size vs wanting a larger bike to fit this much stuff...eh, hmmm)


[attached photo of 'rear fender side shroud things' with white card about the size of a module under it]
[... and yes, I really did paint the bike and recover the seat in Zebra!]

frodus
09 March 2018, 0944
No, you only parallel cells at the cell level. Paralleling a cell at the pack level would mean you're putting 72V across it.

If you have some 50Ah cells, and each leaf cell has 4 cells in each module. First they put 2 cells in parallel and then put those in series with another 2 cells in parallel.
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=631

If you wanted to 100Ah, you'd have to parallel 2 modules together, and then put those in series with other paralleled modules. i.e. you have to have a bunch of 100Ah modules.

Stevo
09 March 2018, 1059
^^^^ What Travis said...
You can't compare those two motors...that's apples and oranges. The lil Motenergy wont provide the speed you require for your hwy leg.
Also, you need to consider the weight of 10 Leaf modules. At about 8 1/2 lbs each, your looking at 85lbs plus the weight of hardware, mounting brackets, etc. That little chassis will be stressed out to it's max.. which is why I suggested opening up the modules with a can opener.... or consider a different battery type all together

T Rush
09 March 2018, 1439
so if each 7.6v 58ah module is a dot • , and two in parallel is this : , I can NOT connect them like this?
(even if it only provides a minor ah increase at the same voltage)

•-•-•-•<:>•-•-•-•

crap


yeah, I've been trying to keep my eye on the weight...but I also want run time...and I did ride that bike once with my 200lbs stepson on the back of it
...tho it would be nice to keep the bike weight around its 216lbs stock, or get a bigger bike, or do a smaller battery, or set it up to go 55mph or 0~30mph but not both, or be OK with charging every 20min, or... I would like it better to remain "reasonably clueless" about some of those things and try it anyway :rolleyes:
failure is an option(as long as I stay open to criticism, guidance, and educationalized) maybe?

maybe not...well, I've got a big drawing board and lots of paper, so I guess back to that

frodus
10 March 2018, 0924
it won't increase the Ah. The current will always flow through the pack. It'll help only that paralleled cell group last longer, but the amperage through the pack, and Ah capacity will depend on the lowest capacity of any series cell-group. I'd say add it to the top of the pack, in series, to increase voltage slightly.

Stevo
10 March 2018, 1225
so if each 7.6v 58ah module is a dot • , and two in parallel is this : , I can NOT connect them like this?
(even if it only provides a minor ah increase at the same voltage)

•-•-•-•<:>•-•-•-•

crap


yeah, I've been trying to keep my eye on the weight...but I also want run time...and I did ride that bike once with my 200lbs stepson on the back of it
...tho it would be nice to keep the bike weight around its 216lbs stock, or get a bigger bike, or do a smaller battery, or set it up to go 55mph or 0~30mph but not both, or be OK with charging every 20min, or... I would like it better to remain "reasonably clueless" about some of those things and try it anyway :rolleyes:
failure is an option(as long as I stay open to criticism, guidance, and educationalized) maybe?

maybe not...well, I've got a big drawing board and lots of paper, so I guess back to that

If you wire the modules that way, you will only have about 32 volt pack with a doubling of the aHr rating.
I'm in the middle of my third version build now. I've learned important things along the way on each version build.
If you really want to learn how to build your own emc, go for it! The education is priceless!! And you'll be spending plenty of $$ on that education!! LOL!

T Rush
11 March 2018, 0019
yeah, ok ok

after thinking about it for a bit, part of my imagined module arrangement just wasn't working well when I was over at my shop measuring and looking at the chassis
...even when cutting back that area from a planed 6 module location to only 4(2 inside the frame and 2 outside under the radiator shroud plastics) still 2 of those modules were very 'forced' into place...I thought I'd build the styrofoam mockup modules to know for sure if those 2 would fit or not

this 'cramming' technique and making things 'barely work' or 'over complicated' are all things I was trying to avoid in my basic-clean-simple build

....so with the new location I found under the 'rear fender side shroud things' for 2, and the lowest main bulk in the engine location being able to hold one more in its width comfortably at 4; just having 2 up forward and higher on the chassis(the ones outside the frame) under the radiator shrouds, and NOT squeezing those other 2 inside the frame ....those locations locations give me 8 Leaf modules....so really all I'd have to do is find a location for one more(like seeing if one will fit just forward of, but flat acrossed, the 4 in the lower engine location), to give me my 9 module(each usable 7~8.4volts discharge~charge) configuration of 63~75volts

I just need to make up my styrofoam mockup modules...yank the ICE, radiator, 12v battery box, and petrol tank out...and see how things physically fall into place

Stevo
11 March 2018, 1232
Welcome to the challenge! LOL
Battery space is the main issue for all of us DIY'ers. You can look at other batt types. I'm not particularly fond of Tesla batteries...its like wiring a bunch of double AA's together!! LOL! And then making a BMS for all those little batteries will be a nightmare.

Electro Flyers
11 March 2018, 1711
which is why I suggested opening up the modules with a can opener....

Before you think(or suggest!) of doing this, watch this dufus with a machete:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcqaAz1vjlo

Stevo
11 March 2018, 1722
I've seen his videos! but it's still doable and others have successfully done it. I have NOT personally tried it, but am thinking about it as I have retired a bunch of Leaf modules....
or I may use them to build my own Power Wall charged by an array of 5x 200watt solar panels to charge my bike's pack. I have a lot to learn about solar installation so I was planning on starting a thread to ask for tips when I get closer to beginning this project. I'm not sure what it would take to safely use a bank of 13 x ~50aHr Leaf modules at ~106v to charge a 96v pack of 24x 75 aHr Kokams

T Rush
11 March 2018, 1748
I'd like to try making the Leaf modules look cool ... still in their cans, at weird angles and stuff
....so far I've mostly seen them used in block stacks, crude and boring

Stevo
12 March 2018, 0944
I'd like to try making the Leaf modules look cool ... still in their cans, at weird angles and stuff
....so far I've mostly seen them used in block stacks, crude and boring

Big cans of anchovies!

T Rush
13 March 2018, 0107
ok, pulled all the ICE guts out of the bike today....I've had the bike mostly stripped down for awhile(headlight, seat, fairings, forks, bars, wheels off) so only had to remove the fuel tank and air box, and was able to take the engine out still connected to everything; dash gauges, radiator, wiring harness, coil, rectifier, horn, twist throttle, etc. everything in one piece!(thought that might be better than labeling everything to know what connected to what, and losing parts)....I had the perfect chunks of styrofoam laying around(the right thickness) so was ready to cut them to battery module sized, and then I put the bare frame up on a rolling cart to test the looks with fairings and seat....that put me into 'sit and look at it' mode(which my shop assistant loves, as she gets lap time then) so I never got the foam cut for mockups yet

I'll start a build thread soon....but now I'm committed to this :p

75627563

Spaceweasel
13 March 2018, 0815
so only had to remove the fuel tank and air box, and was able to take the engine out still connected to everything; dash gauges, radiator, wiring harness, coil, rectifier, horn, twist throttle, etc. everything in one piece!

75627563

I'm always amazed at how much ~stuff~ comes out of an ICE conversion. The straightforwardness of an EV is one of the things that attracts me to it.

Stevo
13 March 2018, 1238
I'm always amazed at how much ~stuff~ comes out of an ICE conversion. The straightforwardness of an EV is one of the things that attracts me to it.

Until you go water cooled, and then start adding more ~stuff~ back!

T Rush
13 March 2018, 2328
put all that ~stuff~ in a box today, was gonna bring it home and weigh it, but I think I'll just sneak my Wife's bathroom scale over to the shop tomorrow
...did spend a little time seeing how many parts I forgot it had that I'd taken off before, and rounding them all up again

already did a major upgrade to my first design
...my shop assistant wasn't happy with the rickety cart I had it sitting on, so I U-bolted it to the base of one of my Wife's old office chairs
now its slightly height and tilt adjustable, plus freely rotates...strange how my Wife thought I should have thrown that away years ago...tho the casters dont roll well at all

cut a few module mock-ups(I made them slightly larger @ 12"X9"X1" so when I get real Nissan Leaf battery modules I'll have extra wiggle room)
....the plan is to get it to a stage where I know what I want, what can be done, what parts I'll need...and then find a good place for it to sit till I sell my Suzuki bike and/or boat https://iowacity.craigslist.org/mcy/d/1991-suzuki-gsx-750-last-and/6513088124.html while I get our Big Boat ready to go out to the marina this spring

tried quite a few different arrangements of the modules; like stacking but some going flat across, and others going forward n back, as I'll need some offset to run a larger pulley on one side of the cross-shaft over to a small front drive chain sprocket(remember the motor has to mount up high under the seat behind the mono shock to get the modules in the frame at all) this 'stair stepping' was kinda wide, I tried wide at the top going down narrower, and also wide at the bottom to get the weight down as low as possible...this gave me the most 'normal' installation, so I didn't like it(and it would be impossible to thru bolt the modules together)
finally found the strangest way to do it...I used some pencils to stab thru where the bolt holes will be, and connected the modules askew....thinking I'll get some short pieces of rope and see how crazy I can make the serial connections between them(but I'm hoping to cold forge some copper rod vs messing with crimping ends on a bunch of heavy gauge cable) with this placement; one module is directly in line with the center down tube, next ones on either side of it are fully still in-between the twin spars of the frame but rotated out of the way of where the pulley down from the motor and the drive sprocket will be, the last layer kinda is in line with the frame spars; but this gives me five modules down the lowest as possible...then another two go up where the radiator shrouds are on either sides and the last two back on the sides under the rear fender shroud bodywork...so 9 will fit, also this leaves a large storage spot in the center of the frame up high(carry an extension cord around?), with room under the seat for controller and other ~el.stuff~....the charger will go up where the radiator was(for good cooling while riding? eh?)

I really will start another build thread for this, as soon as I can act like I know what I'm doing

7564756575667567

T Rush
15 March 2018, 1957
still trying to figure out some ~el.stuff~

first

so if I have a 9 Leaf battery pack, lets say its 72v 60ah; and I charge it with a 1000watt 72volt Delta Q QuiQ, it would take ~5 hours?
battery is 72volts X 60amps X 1hour = 4320watts @ 1 hour
charger is 72volts X 14amps = 1000watts (or something like that...maybe even they are 20amps 1500watts?)
time is 4320 / 1000 = 4.4 hours(loosely) ?
...just really kinda checking if thats how ya do the maths...charging in 3 to 5 hours depending on how drained they are sounds great

next question

I removed at least 55lbs of ICE ~stuff~ but I'm gonna add around 100lbs of ~el.stuff~ or more(batteries, charger, motor, big wires, controller, and etc. is gonna add up fast)....so the final weight of the el.motorcycle will go from 216lbs(original as manufactured) to 250lbs maybe even closer to 300lbs
...so I was looking at the 3kw(6kw peak) HPM3000B GoldenMotor(thinking 'keep costs low, then upgrade latter if needed'); but the 'fun' bikes running these little 3kw motors all look to weigh well under 200lbs, so maybe that motor isn't right for my build, and I'll want something more powerful right away...if its only say $200 or so more(which isn't a large % of the total build price investment) I would think I'd be better off starting out with a few more kw
...ok then, as an example(I'm still looking at anything else tho) would I be 'glad that I did' if I went with the 72V 5KW HPM5000B ?
https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm
...seems like I'll have a pretty big battery pack, so even at almost 5kw constant use, I might still get close to an hour run time?

last

I did some more 'mocking up and about' of the Derbi
...with where the motor has to go(higher up under the seat, just rear of the mono shock) to fit the Leaf modules in the frame at all, the pulley system from the motor down to the cross-shaft/drive-sprocket has to run 'around' the swing arm thru axle, and the motor is limited to only being 5"-6" wide to fit inside the rear sub-frame with the top motor end pulley needing to be inline inside the swing-arm(where the drive-sprocket end of the cross-shaft actually is right on top|under the swing-arm directly inline with the pivot, ya know same placement where the ICE trans had it)...so I was kinda thinking I wanted to run a belt vs chain on the motor to "jack-shaft"(is that what they call a cross-shaft?) on the pulley wheels, and mess with different sizes of these motor and jack-shaft pulley wheels to get my final drive ratio
...so can I take out the swing arm 'axle'(this was the main thing the ICE mounted too as well) and just use two bolts on the swing-arm pivots? or is that a big 'no no' with motorcycle design?
as if I'm changing pulley wheel sizes all the time, it might be nice to change belts too(and not have to take half the bike apart to do it) AND one of the big benefits would be the larger bottom pulley on the jack-shaft would not hit that pivot axle, and maybe slide it further outboard... hmmm


[editing in a few more photos]
stuck a few more parts on...I'm really happy how everything is looking like it'll fit together(I know in these photos its hard to see...and I guess I didn't take shots with the rear battery module mock ups under those back side finder shroud things)...the only issue thats kinda awkward; is that I'll have to change/remove/rebuild the back of the front fender, as it might hit the front modules and the charger will need alittle more space
757375717572
I'll retake some better photos for a real build thread

frodus
15 March 2018, 2225
That's about right for the charging calculation, it ought to take between 4-5 hours if you discharge all the way (which you really shouldn't in practice). Also, the last part of charge takes the longest.... as it just sort of trickles in. The bulk of the charging will be done in the first 3-4 hours.

Did you get my message?

T Rush
16 March 2018, 0624
yes, got message and now replied...sounds great, thanks


but on the motor, surely you guys think I should go for alittle bigger motor, right?

I'm thinking about the added stress the chassis will have to bare with at least 50lbs more weight than the bike came with from the factory in Spain
...and while it is a very well built steel frame, and battery weight will be distributed nicely; putting the torque twisting of the motor in a different location is really the only spot that I think any reinforcement will need to be addressed....so all this seems like a lot of work to do for just a 3kw motor, and it would me more worthwhile to up that to 5kw of power

Richard230
16 March 2018, 0638
yes, got message and now replied...sounds great, thanks


but on the motor, surely you guys think I should go for alittle bigger motor, right?

I'm thinking about the added stress the chassis will have to bare with at least 50lbs more weight than the bike came with from the factory in Spain
...and while it is a very well built steel frame, and battery weight will be distributed nicely; putting the torque twisting of the motor in a different location is really the only spot that I think any reinforcement will need to be addressed....so all this seems like a lot of work to do for just a 3kw motor, and it would me more worthwhile to up that to 5kw of power

For whatever it is worth, my son-in-law's first experience with electric power was installing a 3kW hub motor and a pile of NiMH batteries on a mountain bicycle chassis. He never had a structural issues and the thing would get up to 45 mph, but braking (or lack thereof) was a real issue as was trying to pedal the monster once the battery power expired. So that motor and battery set got sold off and replaced with a 250-watt hub motor and a Li battery pack.

T Rush
16 March 2018, 0826
...3kW hub motor and a pile of NiMH batteries on a mountain bicycle chassis. He never had a structural issues and the thing would get up to 45 mph...
see, I think thats kinda my point...what did the electric bicycle end up weighing? sure 100lbs or more is really heavy for a bicycle(so hard to stop and pedal) and a 3kw motor can really zip a bike under 200lbs up to speed quick....but what happens with that same motor on a full sized motorcycle that has 80lbs of Nissan Leaf battery modules on it

I was looking for other people who had used these same 3kw motors on motorcycles...and I found this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fHEAnsG5ss < used the same GoldenMotor HPM3000B motor and controller I was looking at, but his finished bike weights only 65kg
now while I'd be happy with the type of performance that guy is getting, the donor motorcycle he started with is actually smaller than the Derbi; and you can see how striped down his bike is, with a much lighter battery pack....when my el.motorcycle is done, I probably wont be able to lift it up off the ground anymore with it weighing 250~300lbs...and if possible, I'd like to get it up to 55~60mph.....in the first photo I posted the Derbi looks kinda small....but here I found another photo of my actual bike right after I got it next to the other motorcycles I owned at the time....you can see by comparing its size, its much larger than a bicycle

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q5CvEPyoAj8/UkKQj2MLzaI/AAAAAAAAAnY/hpTmCz3Vah0/s1600/IMG_1722.JPG

frodus
16 March 2018, 0844
Can you fit an ME1507/Sevcon Gen4 inside it? Maybe a smaller ME1302/1304?

T Rush
16 March 2018, 0901
Can you fit an ME1507/Sevcon Gen4 inside it? Maybe a smaller ME1302/1304?
I wish...I was looking at what else you had, I think those are too big, heavy, and more power than is nessasary

frodus
16 March 2018, 0903
Can it be air cooled? or does it have to be sealed?

the Golden might be your best bet. Maybe the 10kw?

T Rush
16 March 2018, 0932
10kw :eek:
...the motor can only be around 8" dia max and about 5" wide, the 5kw HPM5000B is pushing that

I was reading that guy's(in the video) experience with the HPM3000B, and he said it got pretty hot...and up where I would mount, idk about air flow...so was thinking I could do liquid cooled(I know I know, more weight and stuff to add to the bike; that doesnt need to get bigger, heavier, nor more complicated) but in the 3kw to 5kw motor sizes, I'd hope that you wouldn't need a massive radiator and pump?

and even thought that might be a plus to going up to the 5kw HPM5000B, so I'm running it at less of its capacity vs a smaller motor at near max most of the time....a little cooler maybe?

frodus
16 March 2018, 0939
You still have your radiator right? or was it air cooled before?

T Rush
16 March 2018, 0952
still have it...was gonna see if it would mount under the tail with a fan(fill tank higher under the seat), so its directly connected closely to the motor

I'd figure the motor might get hottest during play times and stop and go....so many times it might not get the best natural air flow in a more normal location mounted up front, and having it in the back would be ok....tho it wouldn't be impossible to run hoses up to the front if i'd have to

Spaceweasel
16 March 2018, 1008
That GSX-R could be a good el-moto... just sayin'. :)

You might consider hacking the front subframe to allow for a better pack arrangement and then welding (or paying a local handyman to do it) an extension bracket back in. It looks like there is a fair amount of space behind the front wheel.

I don't think an extra 50lbs of e-stuff is going to be an issue for that frame, but I would definitely go for the larger motor - maybe even step up to the 10kw!

Stevo
16 March 2018, 1035
That GSX-R could be a good el-moto... just sayin'. :)

You might consider hacking the front subframe to allow for a better pack arrangement and then welding (or paying a local handyman to do it) an extension bracket back in. It looks like there is a fair amount of space behind the front wheel.

I don't think an extra 50lbs of e-stuff is going to be an issue for that frame, but I would definitely go for the larger motor - maybe even step up to the 10kw!

This is what I've done, and it really will solve all of your battery space issues. I made the battery enclosure a stressed member of the frame, so it really works well as far as handling goes. The inverter TIG welders you can get on Amazon are under $1000 and work very well, makes learning how to weld Al as easy as it gets. I highly recommend Jodi's instructional videos on Welding Tips and Tricks .com. Get a "pulsed" AC TIG to weld Al. Support his channel by purchasing one of his TIG fingers or a gas lense kit (also highly recommended).
You can do this!!

furyphoto
16 March 2018, 1118
Are you sure you cant make it work without the jack shaft? It adds weight and complication to the system. I would be more inclined to use a 48v motor and 6 or 7 leaf modules. Less weight by removing a couple of battery modules and the jack shaft, so you will get more out of your motor power, and the 2.5 - 2.8 KWh pack should still be plenty for a round trip to your shop, or marina.

Don't lose sight of what your goals are for this project. I suggest revisiting your second post, and condensing your targets into a few major points. The GSXR would make a great platform for a conversion, but I don't think that was what you were originally after.

It seemed to me like what you needed was:

35mph average speed
55-60mph top speed for 3 miles
light weight
18+ miles range

I think you will find that the 3kw motor won't get you to the speeds you need to hit in a 'sporty' fashion, especially if you can't keep the weight down, and 4+KW of battery is more weight than you need to carry to hit your goals.

It's always good to keep your project goals in mind, otherwise its easy to get distracted with more power, more range, more everything. Soon you are ripping the engine out of a perfectly good Gixxer! Not that there is anything wrong with that, but don't turn you first project into your one that never gets completed. I got a bit dragged into that, (better looks, new front end, new swing arm, blah, blah, blah) and my first bike is still not on the road. Granted, there have been a lot of big life changes around our house but still, its not done yet.

I have just been playing with this calculator, it's kind of fun, and seems to do a decent range calculation. http://www.electricbikesimulator.com/index,enmi.html It's for bicycles, but you can up the weight to over 200kg ( There is an imperial version for the USA, and Metric for the rest of the modern world.)

Stevo
16 March 2018, 1126
I agree with Andrew... mount your motor closer to the swingarm pivot for less headaches and simplicity. You will have plenty of room for all the other components after you modify the front frame downtubes.

T Rush
16 March 2018, 1517
I've got a flux wire welder...but I'm a much better grinder than I am a welder....should work for this project tho...and if I have to do anything mission critical,
I'll just tack and take it to one of my buddies

I think I'd rather do my RT1100R than the GSXR, just because I have two of the BMW's and one has a weak engine
...oh, but really, one of my original plans was to el my '74 corvette convertible(I've got two engines for that, a sm block 350, and a big block 454; butthey are both locked up) so maybe that will be next


...It's always good to keep your project goals in mind...
oh, right...those...um, thanks guys....for keeping me on the rails

I'll re read my posts, and everyone else's...then sit and look at the bike somemore

Spaceweasel
16 March 2018, 1528
I love the idea of a convertible e-vette. As a fellow enthusiast prone to scope-creep, I'd convert the Derbi first. Consider the straightforward solution of keeping the driveshaft as close as possible to the original front sprocket location, see where you can most easily mount a 1s set of Leaf cells, then cram everything else wherever it fits. Once you have that up and running then sit back and figure out how big you want to go next - R bike or Corvette.

T Rush
16 March 2018, 1820
yeah...but

a big part of this concept was to do that odd motor placement, and the jack-shaft for the final drive ratio, as well as working with a non-stacked 'block' of modules

I think those are primary design concerns...tho not ordinary, and thus might not work the most efficient(in ease of construction and fundamental cost/out-come)
...those are my goals

furyphoto
16 March 2018, 2058
It looks like both the Alta Redshift, and th KTM have either a gearbox or a jackshaft to adjust the final ratio. Although the both have the motor right next to the the drive sprocket (probably gearboxes)
it's not a terrible idea. I was suggesting that I'd space and weight are tight, it's something to consider dropping. I recently saw an electric conversion with the motor mounted on the swing arm, and the chain at an odd steep angle. The chain is always the right length that way, and careful placement would pretty much eliminate added in spring weight.

I love the idea of the non-block of leaf modules, it will be a bit difficult to wire, but will have a unique look.

Richard230
17 March 2018, 0645
I like the idea of a jackshaft sprocket rotating around the swingarm shaft in concept (not easy to do in practice). Having the final drive sprocket concentric with the swingarm eliminates the change in chain tension when the rear wheel moves up and down. My recollection is that there was a small specialty dirt bike manufacturer (ATK?) some years ago who used a design like this and it seemed to work well, but they were not commercially successful in the long run. Zero solved this issue by placing the motor shaft inline with the swingarm pivot bearing and eliminating the swingarm shaft, but that really weakened the chassis as there is no bar connecting the two sides of the swingarm. It works OK because they have a stiff frame and swingarm, but that design is definitely not optimal for chassis rigidity and bearing longevity.

Stevo
17 March 2018, 1206
I wont argue with you on your concept. This IS your first build and primarily a learning experiment. You are going to learn A LOT! I suggest both concepts simultaneously with the goal of no jack shaft first, followed by the jack shaft concept. That way you can have two finished products to compare with one another (and you can enjoy the ride while you're finishing up the jackshaft concept.) ...Version 1 and version 1.2 !!!

T Rush
18 March 2018, 0359
thanks for keeping on posting stuff guys, it really helps...while I might not totally jump on board right away with your recommendations...it does make me think, and this is the stage for lots of that, then rethinking lots more

so, I looked at it again (my Wife gave me a ride to the shop so I could get my circular saw and still drink green beer) so while my Wife was at the grocery store, which takes her a long time; I noticed a few things


1) space for the motor up high in the rear sub frame is pretty tight; might have to mod that part of the frame some, but I'd think it would have to be reinforced anyway as the motor has to pivot(like an alternator on a car) for belt or chain tightness ...so that might get extra fancy(more than I'd want it to)...I can tell already this will be an issue, with the motor trying to twist itself right out of there, and not being in the 'strong part' of the frame designed for the engine

2) jackshaft space is limited....I did think earlier about the swing arm axle pivot being the support for a jack shaft tube(as Richard230 just posted above) but my swing arm and frame narrow right there(where it would need to be wider for both chains/belts to clear beside the tire)...a jack shaft will keep the drive sprocket closer to the swing arm pivot like the ICE/trans had it...and there is way more space for a jack shaft than a 8"dia motor(there is no way any Leaf modules would fit inside the frame if the motor was there)...the jack shaft concept and changed motor location is so I can use Leaf battery modules....without the Leaf battery I looked at 18650 cells, but then there goes my range or run time, and I'm doing just one of those popular Chinese eBike kits ...heck, I'd just buy a Sur Ron (https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron/)

3) I do have other non running motorcycles....namely I have two CB/CL 350 Scramblers(one I paid $175 for, a week later someone saw it and gave me another matching one)....one of them I put new tires on, beefed up NOS vintage aftermarket rear shocks, heavy front springs, and started cleaning it up to do a cafe racer style(I called it a "Cafe Sport")...the other I used the parts I took off the cafe to build it back to stock, but its engine is screwed....sadly nether has any paperwork, so never bothered to run them http://trushcafesport.blogspot.com/
...but they have way more space for a bigger motor(normal location) and battery


4) I just really want to sell that gixxer...yes, I was/am in love with that bike...but I'm never going to ride it again(would rather be on my CBR1100XX Super Blackbird) and selling it would pretty much fund an el.motorcycle build

dcb
30 March 2018, 0719
lets dump this 2 ratio dual motor stuff here then.
https://i.imgur.com/LcJn6yS.png

Q. use 2 1/2 sized @ 1.51 for comparison?

A. 2 1/2 sized motors @ 1.5:1 vs full sized is irrelevant for this discussion (one is in reality better). If you want to do your own homework, you can complicate it as much as you like and clean it up as much as you want.


Q. why did the fuscia torque line move from the full sized one?

A. Because you changed something, but you don't seem to understand it. Were you expecting nothing to change with this proposal?!?


Q. why does the fuscia torque line stop half way?

A. because you didn't specify how to handle overspeed (and I'm not digging through your walls of text to look for one). Assuming you decouple the 2:1, congratulations, you have made a half-baked transmission, and the torque never catches up since it is running on just a 1/2 sized motor at that point, drops down immediately to the torque line on the 1/2 sized 1:1. Actually I lied, it "catches up" after the full sized 1.5:1 stops accelerating at 8k rpm. We aren't looking at continuous power here though, and depending on the speed, ratio, and cda/rr and the motors in question, it might not even accelerate to or past that point (do you understand that statement?).


Q. what about my other questions?

A. they were probably irrelevant, at least until you understand this much, or they were buried in walls of speculation that I didn't care to read thoroughly.

edit: kill it with fire :)

T Rush
03 April 2018, 0735
^^^please ignore dcb's post above, its from another topic and he is acting weird with asking questions and answering them himself ^^^
....I've reported it to moderation, so maybe they could delete it....anyway, sorry about that
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so I pulled all my Leaf battery module 'mockups' off the bike today
....because it just doesn't matter how I stack it, they will always weigh in at 85lbs

I really liked how I figured out how to fit them in...it would have looked really cool and been something special....but I'm just gonna have to try for a lighter battery pack
...I'll keep the idea for a back up if the other battery deal doesn't work out, and/or if I decide that increasing the bikes total weight that much over stock isn't too much of bad deal

still trying to get closer to buying parts, so I can start a build thread in the projects

Stevo
03 April 2018, 0953
^^^please ignore dcb's post above, its from another topic and he is acting weird with asking questions and answering them himself ^^^


That's funny... I found it entertaining!

Buy your batteries last. Actually, wait until your close to finishing your jackshaft set up. Because you never know what kind of battery deals you will find when you are ready for them. We are almost due for a leap in batt chemistry engineering which will make everything currently available obsolete. Lots of good deals are right around the corner.
Ya, I'm a glass half full kinda guy:cool:

T Rush
03 April 2018, 1358
yeah, I kinda don't have that luxury of being able to do the battery pack later....as I'm extremely space and weight limited
...even with doing that jackshaft...its like it doesn't take up as much space as a motor would in that location, but it does subtract from the total space available
currently looking at modifying the rear swing arm pivot(which I really don't want to do) to incorporate the jackshaft(like the Sur Ron...again) but I think I've kinda stumbled upon simple way to do it....using that good ol' thinking outside the box :p ....but, depending on the battery pack, I might not have to do that with a jackshaft, or might be able to avoid a jackshaft altogether

T Rush
08 April 2018, 0026
whelp....time to switch back to the old plan....as I finally got ahold of my Mother who just happened to be out in Arizona, and driving back in a week; asked her if she would be anywhere near Chandler Az and could pick up a Bolt battery module or two for me(saving $100 shipping per module) I'd also been in contact with that guy I posted about (http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=4642) who was able to get an entire Chevy Bolt battery pack, and he quoted me even lower prices if I picked them up
...however he now says they are all gone :( (probably someone will stick them in a golf cart)

so I guess back to the bigger heavier Leaf modules and for sure the jackshaft....which is fine, as now I don't have to be in such a 'rush', because we still have snow on the ground and setting record low temps(so kinda hard to sell my gixxer) and I still need to finish a few winter projects(redoing the sound system and installing a TV screen, plus I'm only about half done with a new coat of anti-foul bottom paint) on our big boat before it goes out to the marina in its slip

yup, more 'wild speculation' still to come until I can get my hands dirty :p

dang, that just would have been so cool to get those Bolt cells, as with the lower weight and size I would of had so many more options with motor size(power) and placement...I guess I could go with the ever popular 18650 cells to still get a pack like that, but I'd rather do the Leaf cans than that

are the first gen Leaf modules sealed ?
...I like the looks(and price) of those better...so if anyone has some old ones they upgraded? just saying I'll be looking