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__Tango
24 November 2010, 1739
Hey folks,

So, I have a Kelly 120V/400A brushless controller (KBL12401I), and an Enertrac MH602 brushless hub motor. I've finally gotten around to trying to test if i can get the motor to spin (without me spinning it by hand. :) ).

Based on my other thread about which is the 5V input vs. the thermistor wire, i think i have everything wired up correctly. I am using 29. 5V (9 TS cells which are all around 3.25-3.3V) for pack voltage, and the same pack voltage to power the controller (the controller docs say it can be run on 10-30V).

However, when i turn the throttle, nothing happens.

I have verified that:

the controller is getting power (the LEDs light up),
the 5V power line coming out of the controller is putting out 5V.
the 0-5V throttle wiper wire is indeed going from 0 to around 5V as the throttle is turned from nothing to full throttle
Pack voltage at the terminals on the controler is the 29.5V that is expected.
The hall sensors go from 0 to 5V as the motor spin (if i spin it by hand).
the controller is configured to have its LVC set to 18V (the lowest it will go). The HVC is 136V, so i'm well within that range. I don't have the thermistor hooked up to the controller, but I disabled the temperature sensor in the controller setup (and it's 45 degrees F here, so there's no way i'm over any temperature threshold.
There are some anomolies though:

The Red "fault code" LED seems to flash 2 fault codes: 1,3 and 2,2. The manual states:


1,3: Low Voltage Error:

The controller will attempt to clear the fault code automatically after 5 second if battery voltage returns to normal.
Check the battery voltage.
Charge battery if necessary



For this one, as i stated, the pack is supposed to be running at about 29-30V, and my multimeter says that's what it is. I tested the "B+ " and "B-" terminals on the controller to verify that the voltage at the controller is good.


2,2: Internal Voltage fault:

Check if the B+ and PWR voltage are correct, refer to B- or RTN. Could be PWR voltage low.
Please check load on 5V supply. Could be high load on 5V. Incorrect pot wiring can load it heavily.
The controller is damaged. Please contact Kelly for warrantee.



I have checked the voltage going into the controller, and everything seems ok.

Another odd thing is that the controller setup windows application has a button that's supposed to help figure out orientation the hall sensors are in (60 vs. 120 degrees). However, that button doesn't seem to work for me. I try to run the "test", it says something about "cannot exit, please check throttle is off" (i don't have the exact text handy). As i stated above, i've checked the 5V wire (and it is 5V), and 0-5V throttle wire (it is 0 when the throttle is left alone, and around 5V at "full throttle").

I'm not sure what else to check? I really hope it's not a dead controller. i've had it in my garage for a year as i've been working on the project for that long, i'd hate to have to wait to get it replaced...Any ideas???

Thanks.

...tango...

Only2Jakes
24 November 2010, 2116
My hub motor, a kelly hub motor had this problem a few times. If you have the PWR and GND 1 or 2 connected right, it turns the controller on to fix the low voltage error. As if you don't, the controller wont be powered up fully. Does it turn at all when you disconnect and then reconnect power, and turn the throttle? Do you get the fault as soon as you turn the throttle/power up the controller.
This is how it is wired for the kelly hub motor:
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/mot/downloads/4.5KW.jpg

Hope this helps, but to diagnose it further, would need to know about when the errors occur. Because the controller itself does not power the motor at all if it has an error.

__Tango
24 November 2010, 2249
My hub motor, a kelly hub motor had this problem a few times. If you have the PWR and GND 1 or 2 connected right, it turns the controller on to fix the low voltage error. As if you don't, the controller wont be powered up fully. Does it turn at all when you disconnect and then reconnect power, and turn the throttle?

Unfortunately, no...it doesn't.


Do you get the fault as soon as you turn the throttle/power up the controller.

The fault indicator usually starts flashing it's 1,3 and 2,2 pattern immediately after i apply power to the controller (even before i touch the throttle).

However, about 10 or 20% of the time, the red LED switches from off to on in a very slow but steady pattern (15+ sec on, 15+ sec off, repeat). Usually, if i power cycle the controller, it will go back to the 1,3 and 2,2 pattern.


This is how it is wired for the kelly hub motor:
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/mot/downloads/4.5KW.jpg


thanks. that's pretty much what i have setup. But the enertrac hub came with specific documentation about what wires go where, so i followed that.


Hope this helps, but to diagnose it further, would need to know about when the errors occur. Because the controller itself does not power the motor at all if it has an error.

Thanks. hopefully this will answer some more questions. I'll try to take a video which may show more detail, but that will have to wait a day or so...

Thanks!

Only2Jakes
24 November 2010, 2306
Well, it's definitely not the motor since you are getting the errors right when you power it up. It's a problem somewhere, either with some of the setting in the controller Ie. low voltage cutoff. I think that since the controller is rated 120v even though the LVC is programmed to be 18v, it will still not work until it gets at least half, that Is my guess. Since all the internals of the controller are rated for 120v, 30v is just not enough? I am not too sure, Better to contact kelly, as they were very useful when I had problems, you may even get a replacement sent out, but then time is the issue.

This happened to me a few times, not sure if the same error. But I fiddled with the throttle hall sensor and since I moved it, it was always ON, so when the controller powered up it automatically went into the error as the throttle was on when powered up. So if you have another throttle, or if your using a Magura, I'd recommend slightly turning the sensor. But maybe someone else in the forum knows exactly what's wrong.

__Tango
24 November 2010, 2322
Well, it's definitely not the motor since you are getting the errors right when you power it up. It's a problem somewhere, either with some of the setting in the controller Ie. low voltage cutoff. I think that since the controller is rated 120v even though the LVC is programmed to be 18v, it will still not work until it gets at least half, that Is my guess. Since all the internals of the controller are rated for 120v, 30v is just not enough? I am not too sure, Better to contact kelly, as they were very useful when I had problems, you may even get a replacement sent out, but then time is the issue.

This happened to me a few times, not sure if the same error. But I fiddled with the throttle hall sensor and since I moved it, it was always ON, so when the controller powered up it automatically went into the error as the throttle was on when powered up. So if you have another throttle, or if your using a Magura, I'd recommend slightly turning the sensor. But maybe someone else in the forum knows exactly what's wrong.

Thanks. I fired off a message to kelly (basically a better explained version of my original post).

And yes, i am using a Magura throttle.

Thanks for your help. Anyone else got any ideas while we wait for kelly to get back to me?

Thanks again. :)

Remotecontact
25 November 2010, 0919
Hey Alex, it sounds like you've got everything hooked up correctly. Hard to tell without being there though. Can you snap some pics of your wiring? May be able to spot something then.

It could be as simple as re-installing the programming software and checking if you have the most up to date version.

Also for these tests, make sure that the rear wheel is OFF of the ground. Swingarm stand or something. I accidentally set my controller to "joystick mode" once and was very glad the wheel was off the ground when it shot full power in reverse.

Been a while man.

- Adam

Nuts & Volts
25 November 2010, 0924
I have a brushed kelly and I had errors with input voltage on the controller power supply. 12.8V was too low and 72V was too high. I tapped mine off of 18V from my battery pack. So I would try changing the input voltage too the controller power maybe?

Also I agree with Jake that you should have a higher battery voltage on the controller (at least above 60V)
Kyle

seanece
25 November 2010, 1059
2.3 Specifications
•Frequency of Operation: 16.6kHz.
•Standby Battery Current: < 0.5mA.
•5V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA.
•Controller supply voltage range, PWR, 10 to 30V (24V preferred)

I remember you troubleshooting that N & V. It still boggles me that the Controller supply voltage range specs are so far off.

__Tango
30 November 2010, 0253
HOLY SMOKES (not literally)...it spins!!! :)

So, yesterday, i took apart all of the wiring that i did because i wanted to mount everything to a board (up until then, the terminal strip i was using for the throttle, hall sensors, and whatnot was hanging off of the wires).

I had been discussing the problem with Kelly, and they sent me a new firmware to try. I was going to do it, but that meant i had to re-wire everything. As i was doing that, I double and triple checked everything was in the right place, and also made a couple of changes:


Mounted everything to a piece of wood to secure it.
added the contactor into the B+ line. Mainly because the contactor has a pre-charge resistor, and i was wondering if this made a difference.
As per Mark from Enertrac's suggestion, i ran the controller off of a separate 24V battery pack. He says that the kelly controller doesn't like it if the controller is grounded to the same line as the traction pack or the 12V system (basically, it should be floating).
I changed from using a 9 cell pack for the drive to a 12 cell pack (29V vs. 39V).


Unfortunately, once i had everything setup, it was pretty late, so i decided to skip re-flashing the controller. i was just going to check the connections to make sure i had everything setup. I did this first without the traction pack connected, and everything was the same. Then i hooked up the traction pack to see if the contactor worked. As i was re-checking the connections, when i was testing the throttle wiper with the voltmeter, the motor spun! WOOHOO!

I'm not certain what the difference was to make it work. I have photos of the original setup, and as kludgey as it was, the wiring was the same. I'm betting it was running the controller off of a separate isolated pack. It could have been the larger pack voltage, but i doubt that. In any case, it works. :)

OK...on to the next set of problems! :)

Only2Jakes
30 November 2010, 0338
Nice, good to see it's working now.
Have some fun!!!!
Pictures will do ;)

BaldBruce
30 November 2010, 0651
Spinning GOOOOOD.....

Re-invigorating to actually make progress isn't it?!

DaveAK
30 November 2010, 0939
Awesome stuff! Feels good doesn't it?

__Tango
30 November 2010, 1132
Hell yeah!

__Tango
01 December 2010, 1036
OK, as y'all say: "Pictures or it didn't happen". So here you go!

Here's the first setup with the stuff just placed near the batteries:

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_12_01-09_15_46-001-untitled-1600.jpg?w=510 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_12_01-09_15_46-001-untitled-1600.jpg)

Here's after i did the rewiring and proper setup:

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_11_30-23_46_24-002-motorbenchtest-1600.jpg?w=510 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_11_30-23_46_24-002-motorbenchtest-1600.jpg)

And here's a pic of it spinning!

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_11_30-23_50_47-004-motorbenchtest-1600.jpg?w=510 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_11_30-23_50_47-004-motorbenchtest-1600.jpg)

And finally, here's a raw video (haven't had time to put together the full video yet) of it spinning!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dID3d-0eULo

WOOHOO!!!

DaveAK
01 December 2010, 1045
AWEsome!!!

markcycle
01 December 2010, 1254
Congratulations would love to see a tire on that rim ;)

__Tango
01 December 2010, 1322
Thanks Mark! Especially for your help with the wiring.

I've got a tire on order. It's coming soon. :)

__Tango
03 December 2010, 0138
Congratulations would love to see a tire on that rim ;)

Here you go...just for you mark! :)

http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_12_02-22_52_00-004-motorwithtire-1600.jpg?w=510 (http://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/2010_12_02-22_52_00-004-motorwithtire-1600.jpg)

and this too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW8SMFjG54E

markcycle
03 December 2010, 0621
Very cool progress

electrician
03 December 2010, 0821
Congratulations!