PDA

View Full Version : Audi full-LED headlights



chef
16 January 2011, 1226
There's now at least one LED headlight approved for production vehicle use. The layout of the lighting elements is very unique.

http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/models/a8/explore/a8_led_headlights.html

"The Audi A8 is the spearhead of the Audi lighting strategy, and is available with optional full-LED headlights."

SplinterOz
16 January 2011, 2133
Have a look here... http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/headlights/?filter=LED
These guys have some drop in replacements (ok you may have to fab stuff but the size is right) for older bikes/cars/trucks with round or rectangular lights.

Note full LED operation and DOT approved.

Thinking of the 5" x 7" rectangle for my bike.

ZoomSmith
16 January 2011, 2203
I like the 4.5" round units for mine. Any idea where to purchase and how much?

SplinterOz
16 January 2011, 2235
I found a distributor for Australia and NZ etc http://www.invisionsales.com/
However I believe the price is not cheap I have seen the 7" rounds priced at over $800USD (my god more than my motor)
That price is a pair... not sure if that makes it better or not.

Sorry better link and price here....

http://www.oslights.com/JW-Speaker--HID-&-LED-Lights/JW_Speaker_Model_6130_PAR36_LED_Headlamps_High_or_ Low_Beam

Seems like only in pairs

chef
16 January 2011, 2316
The 2nd link (oslights) comes up at $300. Still way too rich for my blood atm. Thanks for the links, it's good to see DOT-approved LEDs on the market. Prices will come down in time.

Square Wave
18 January 2011, 0445
I’m disappointed. Regular halogen lights are 55 and 65 watts in the U.S. The ones on your link are 27/66 watts. Well, I guess you would save a good bit on low beam, which is most of the time.

frodus
18 January 2011, 0916
Well, if its a cost issue, why don't you guys get some 35W HID's? They can be bought for under $100 for a single, and slightly more for dual. Much cheaper and (from what I have read) a higher output per watt than LED. LED is great because you'll never replace it, but HID bulbs aren't that expensive and they do last quite a while.

BTW, I just bought a 2007 Audi A4 last week and its got HID's.... I absolutely love them.

Now if its from an efficiency standpoint, go HID.

frodus
18 January 2011, 0917
I’m disappointed. Regular halogen lights are 55 and 65 watts in the U.S. The ones on your link are 27/66 watts. Well, I guess you would save a good bit on low beam, which is most of the time.

but at 27W with low beam, what is the light output comparatively? Its not about how many watts they use, its how many useable lumens per watt are generated (lm/W).

chef
18 January 2011, 1247
Right, and if the lm/W is high enough, you could chop the power to the LEDs and save more power. For instance, if the LEDs are bright enough @ 50% duty cycle*, they'd consume 13.5W.

*Pure speculation and random #s thrown about

SplinterOz
18 January 2011, 1354
I did find a guy that put some into his BMW 3 series and stated that it was brighter than the lights he had converted to HID. I like them for several reasons... lower power use for low beam, better light, no external electronics box to mount, longer life and they are different.

Will I pay the premium.... not sure yet.

frodus
18 January 2011, 1420
lower power use for low beam
[citation needed]
Sources I've read state that most (if not all) of the LED lights out there are lower lumens/watt than HID. You can get HID's that use as little as 10W. 35W HID's might be the best for lower power useage than the 55W ones, but lets look closer. Lets use the 27W LED low beam, compared to the 35W HID. Now thats what, 8W? At 72V, that would equate to about 100mA (0.1A). Thats not going to effect your range noticeably at all.


better light
[citation needed]
Better light? As in better color spectrum? Better as measured how?


no external electronics box to mount
The LED's I've seen need large heatsinks to cool the diodes and some even need an external 12V regulated power supply for the LED's themselves.


longer life and they are different.
no citation needed, agree with ya there.

SplinterOz
18 January 2011, 1503
1. Lower power use for Low beam (note this comment was about electrical power used important for our EV's)
First link I provided (http://www.oslights.com/JW-Speaker--HID-&-LED-Lights/JW_Speaker_Model_6130_PAR36_LED_Headlamps_High_or_ Low_Beam)
Current Draw:
2.25 Amps @ 12V; 1.3 Amps @ 24V (Low Beam) - 27 watts power
5.5 Amps @ 12V; 2.6 Amps @ 24V (High Beam) - 66 watts power
I cannot buy a Halogen light (or even HID) for my bike with a low beam consuming less than 35 watts

2 Better Light (http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96583&highlight=leds)
This guy has installed in a E30 BMW and states they are better than his halogens and better than his HIDs.

Let me put it in relative terms; remember the shock and satisfaction at the improvement you may have experienced when upgrading to HIDs from regular halogens? This is that much (or more) of an upgrade again, beyond HID. With LEDs on the driver side and HID low/halogen high on the passenger side, it looks like the passenger side has something wrong, like they're not working right, dull and indistinct. The driver side is a laser-etched projection of pure light.

3 Even your comment on this did not disagree. Yep these have heat sinks (did you look at the links) but not external electronics (like HID) are required or needs to be mounted.

4 Interestingly I have also found links for emergency services using them as they find the HID's do not work with the "WIG-WAG" flashing of the headlights and Halogens wear out extra quick. So if you are thinking of a device like the trail blazer then the LED's have even longer life.

Here is a link to the PDF (http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/headlights/model-8700-7-round.pdf) for the round High/Low Beam from the company.
Note they say

Technical Specifications
12V Version
12-24V DC Input
2.500 Amps @ 12V DC
1.300 Amps @ 24V DC
Raw Lumen Output: 1,350 (Low Beam); 1,350 (High Beam)
Effective Lumen Output: 650 (Low Beam); 760 (High Beam)

But remember this is the internet... I have not USED these lights I have not seen one in the flesh take everything I say as second hand.
I have emailed the Australian distributor they are a large and reputable provider of Philips and JW Speaker lights for heavy industry.

frodus
18 January 2011, 1612
Thanks man, links and sources are what make this discussion more honest. Don't think I'm arguing, but I'd like something factual to chew on.... and you gave me that. Thanks.

Some of the lighting I've seen (I work as an EE in the lighting industry) use external LED drivers. Some of those drivers are used on bicycles as well. They must have the driver built onto the circuit boards.


I'm wondering what the BMW guy constitutes as better though, I mean, they look different of course.... but I'm still having trouble finding where he did any measuring or benchmarking, or is it opinion.

SplinterOz
18 January 2011, 1623
Frodus... no problem... just been one of those weeks :)

Yea he just said better... I can't find anywhere where he measured anything. JW Speaker does have a few informational (read sales) PDF's (http://www.jwspeaker.com/file_download/5/10+Reasons+to+Upgrade+Your+Headlamps+to+LED.pdf) regarding the quality of the lights.

What I can't find is any other seller on the market.

mpipes
19 January 2011, 0557
I love LED lighting but for headlight use, they just lack. LEDs have a very narrow spectrum of output and because of that, there is a lot of color information in a given scene that does not make it back to your eye. You get a very sharp contrast and definition but the overall appearance is kinda harsh and lacking color. When the LED makers say 5500K they mean it, but unlike an HID or sunlight, that is the only part of the spectrum you get. RGB LEDs would give some flexibility in color control.

That said... I have a couple of these seoul semiconductor LEDs (http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/product/prd/zpowerLEDp7.asp) laying around here, and they're pretty awesome..They have 4 LED dies in one package, really high output, but they're also $26 EACH from digi-key.

Using the claimed specs on the link above, at 3.6V x 2.8A (total of all four dies) and 700 total lumens (typical) that's 69 lm/W or 1875 lumens for a 27 watt assembly (comparing to the lamp mentioned above), so you need 3 emitters or $75 in LEDs alone to make one lamp. Now, Seoul claims you can drive those emitters to 900 lumens or 90lm/W but you'll definitely want to heat sink them. I have not attempted driving mine that high, I've only messed around with connecting directly to a couple AA batteries and sticking the emitter into a MAG reflector :D but even then it's pretty dang bright. It's certainly brighter than both Luxeon and Cree's best offerings.

BaldBruce
19 January 2011, 2015
Couple clarificaions for those interested in pursuing a custom LED headlight. (or any other high power LED light for that matter.

1) Color temperature is directly inverse to lumens per watt. 2700K is what an incandescent headlamp runs at and is the least efficient LED. 3000K is what Halogen lamps run at and is a bit more efficient for LEDs. HIDs can be designed for almost any color temperature, but most automotive applications are using 5000K to make a bluer and crisper light. LED can do this temperature very efficiently and are even more efficient at higher color temperatures. There are 6500K LEDS that are over 100 lumens per watt compared to the 60 lm/w that the best 2700K LED system can do.
2) System lm/w is not the same as the spec from the OEMs. They measure the light output in the first 50 milliseconds of operation. We operate them comtinuously and through an optic. You must subtract at least 20% losses for EACH of the thermal and optical losses to get a rough idea of what the system's lumen output will be. Also need to subtract driver efficiency from the system calculation also. 15% is typical.
3) All LEDs need a driver to regulate current. (I design them for a living.) It can be as simple and inefficient as a resistor or most use a straight forward switch mode power supply.
4)All the high efficency LEDs use a blue LED as the pump and then add phosphers to generate the green and red. This explains why the higher the color temperature, the more efficient it is. Think of it as harder to generate reds because it is so far away from the blue generator. (Priciple is called the Stokes shift if you want to learn more.) Individual color LEDs are narrow spectrum, but white ones are generally broad spectrum. The higher the CRI, the more even the spectrum.
5) CREE and Nichia currently make the most efficient and powerful LEDs commercially available. Seoul, Phillips and and several other Japanese companies make up the second tier products. There are a billion third tier suppliers that you don't want to use..... CREE is a USA company with a good website. Nichia has some of the best products but are based in Japan and their website and US suport suck.
6) Thermals is high power LED's dirty little secret. They MUST be heatsinked to keep them at a reasonable temperature. While they may survive 125C, they will not put out much light for very long. Keep the temperature of the base of the LED well below 100C if you want to get any decent performance and life out of your creation. Audi is actually using a seperate liquid cooling system to ensure great LED perfomance.

If you made it through all that, you are now an LED expert:).

SplinterOz
19 January 2011, 2052
BaldBruce... based on all of that do you think the J W Speaker lights would be worth the investment. They seem to provide honest information about the colour and lm/w of the system.

Tony Coiro
19 January 2011, 2111
If you made it through all that, you are now an LED expert:).

Very cool info Bruce, I've just started to get into LED lighting but in gardening applications. :D

Nuts & Volts
19 January 2011, 2123
Thanks Bruce, i always wanted to be an expert at something!

Tony, gardening? First 48V wasnt enough, now 2 monsters and lipo arent enough. So i guess gardening is the next level of insanity :)

chef
19 January 2011, 2135
I love LED lighting but for headlight use, they just lack. LEDs have a very narrow spectrum of output and because of that, there is a lot of color information in a given scene that does not make it back to your eye. You get a very sharp contrast and definition but the overall appearance is kinda harsh and lacking color.
The reviews I've read of the Cree CR6 recessed floodlight say it has a very nice color temperature, very comparable to an incandescent. They achieve that by mixing red and green LEDs with the whites. That's for home lighting though I imagine could easily apply to headlight applications as well. Might also take a hit in efficiency from Bruce's thorough explanation.

Bruce - how do the old-school red LEDs compare? Not the white ones with red phosphors, but the ones that are designed to emit red directly. Could those be mixed with the cold whites and still achieve decent efficiency?

Skeezmour
20 January 2011, 0001
Thanks Bruce for the info. This is a great group :)

Tony Coiro
20 January 2011, 0752
Tony, gardening? First 48V wasnt enough, now 2 monsters and lipo arent enough. So i guess gardening is the next level of insanity :)

Haha, you haven't even about my other strange hobby, the ultimate level of insanity, being a blacksmith/bladesmith. :D

BaldBruce
20 January 2011, 1146
Bruce - how do the old-school red LEDs compare? Not the white ones with red phosphors, but the ones that are designed to emit red directly. Could those be mixed with the cold whites and still achieve decent efficiency?

Red LEDs are not as efficient as the other colors, but when mixed with a "white"(blue LED with green phospor), they can be very good at low color temperature operation. As you said, this is exactly what the CREE downlight products are doing very well. Best downlight LED system out there IMO despite the complicated and expensive electronics to monitor and balance the colors. (Phillips and CREE both have patents on this concept, but for an individual this would only be a minor concern.)

BaldBruce
06 November 2012, 2023
Quick update guys, we just received some LED headlights at work for evaluation. Great stuff for your bikes! They put out way more light than the incandescent and consume half the power. (55W versus 25W) Electronic driver is internal, so all you do is plug it into your standard 12v three prong connector. DOT approved. Prices have gone down some, but still in the 200 to 300 dollar range. Made by a company called Truck-lite, but sold everwhere now, even Advance Auto Parts store in my neighborhood had them. Here is a link to a bike company that specializes in lighting and calls them the Phase 7. (Remeber to scroll down, since the headlamp at the top of the page is more expensive and uses more energy.)http://www.customdynamics.com/high_intensity_led_headlamp.htm

SplinterOz
07 November 2012, 0135
Bruce, they look great. Now all I need is a rectangular one.

BaldBruce
07 November 2012, 1250
They make that one also....
http://www.truck-lite.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=92027&langId=-1

ZoomSmith
07 November 2012, 1409
Bruce,
Is there a 5" version somewhere?
-Z

Allen_okc
07 November 2012, 1428
im in, ive been looking for a kewl LED headlight for a while...

furyphoto
07 November 2012, 1440
im in, ive been looking for a kewl LED headlight for a while...

The JW Speaker 8700 LED headlight is cool, but pricey.

SplinterOz
07 November 2012, 1612
They make that one also....
http://www.truck-lite.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=92027&langId=-1

Cool, however I have a 6x4 size not 7x5 I know JW Speaker makes one my size high and low beam however it is quite a deal more expensive