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electriKAT
09 February 2011, 1224
Has anyone noticed that lithium batteries have not decreased in price in a L-O-N-G time? I keep waiting to upgrade, but they're not getting any cheaper. Spring is coming and I want some range. Of course they will drop in price as soon as I buy.

Rant over. There, I feel better now...

Skeezmour
09 February 2011, 1228
Just dropped $1100 for a small pack so I know your pain. Just decided that I didn't want to wait anymore to get mine started.

jpanichella
09 February 2011, 1228
You may have another round of SLAs to go before lithium is significantly cheaper.

electriKAT
09 February 2011, 1242
From now on, the only lead I'll be using is in my pencils. I'm not spending another dime on lead acid batteries.

Nuts & Volts
09 February 2011, 1242
hobbycity! they get cheaper quick

But yea LiFePO4 and other larger format cells, aren't really getting any cheaper

Coninsan
09 February 2011, 1254
Lithium porbalby won't get any cheaper untill there's another better alternative available, Nanotube batteries reveal yourself!

jpanichella
09 February 2011, 1342
hobbycity! they get cheaper quick

But yea LiFePO4 and other larger format cells, aren't really getting any cheaper

I'm still waiting for people to decode the mystery of charging and balancing in language my little mind can understand. I did price out a 15C pack at 40AH. It would weigh 55 pounds and cost 1,400 bucks. Do want!

drivin98
09 February 2011, 1422
According to a poster over at Tesla Motors Club (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5056-Etox-Zafer-Electric?p=58565&viewfull=1#post58565), you can get a great price on 2200mA 18650 cells: $.2 per if ordered in quantities of 100,000. Cheap.

Nuts & Volts
09 February 2011, 1427
I'm still waiting for people to decode the mystery of charging and balancing in language my little mind can understand. I did price out a 15C pack at 40AH. It would weigh 55 pounds and cost 1,400 bucks. Do want!

I am working out some battery box building ideas, that hopefully I'll get around to sharing on here soon. Also I would say spec out the 20C cells, they seem to be cheaper and offer all the performance you'll need.

jpanichella
09 February 2011, 1437
According to a poster over at Tesla Motors Club (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5056-Etox-Zafer-Electric?p=58565&viewfull=1#post58565), you can get a great price on 2200mA 18650 cells: $.2 per if ordered in quantities of 100,000. Cheap.

Any interest in a group buy? And how do we charge and balance that many batteries?

Coninsan
09 February 2011, 1441
Could be a good investment, but still, that's a full 20000$ to put down.

Obviously the batteries should be topped off when initially shipped to the buyer, but keeping them topped off might be a problem.

And the again, I would be mindfull of the quality when the original mail says that said cells have a lifespan of 400 cycles.

BaldBruce
09 February 2011, 1446
Just to be clear, that price was for the Chinese copy of an 18650, not the original made by Panasonic (Japanese) that TESLA actually uses. Want to be clear that there is a significant difference in quality and price IMO. Their assembly was in Thailand for cheap labour, but the cells come from Japan for high quality.

ZoomSmith
09 February 2011, 1742
With a number of production EV's coming to market, I expect demand for Lithium Batteries will continue to outpace supply.

@electriKAT: Go Lithium Now!

SplinterOz
09 February 2011, 1908
I think you guys have the disadvantage of a weaker dollar. Over here in Oz the price is definitely dropping... but it is mainly due to our stronger dollar.

cycleguy
09 February 2011, 2006
Has anyone noticed that lithium batteries have not decreased in price in a L-O-N-G time? I keep waiting to upgrade, but they're not getting any cheaper. Spring is coming and I want some range. Of course they will drop in price as soon as I buy.

Rant over. There, I feel better now...

I agree, I started looking into Thundersky batteries about 4 years ago, they are the same price now as they were then.
I don't see any significant price reduction occurring with lithium batteries, in fact I see them getting even more expensive as the technology advances. Lithium,Cobalt, nano technology and other exotic metals and processes will only increase costs. There isn't much more to be gained from better manufacturing techniques, as they've already fully automated the manufacturing process, and any cost savings at this point would be very small.
I'm beginning to doubt whether we are ever going to be able to produce a cost effective alternative to ICE, when the batteries alone cost as much as the rest of the vehicle combined in most cases. After all, we're not talking about prototype lab samples any longer, LiFeP04 has been around long enough now, and mass produced by factories with State help (China) and subsidies, and still the price is no where near what's necessary to compete in the market place.
It may be time to seriously reconsider the lithium paradigm.

BaldBruce
09 February 2011, 2026
2 counterpoints:
1) large format lithiums are still in their infancy and have a long way to go to get to large quantity production. I can make a very strong argument that we are still in the infancy of large scale production of larger prismatics.
2) Small cylindricals are made in large production quantities and the price has dropped precipitously in the last 10 years. An 18650 cost 3 bucks to make in quantity back in 2005. They now cost less than a dollar in quantity. Over 66% reduction in 6 years! Besides my stock investments, not much else has dropped that much in the past few years!

Nuts & Volts
09 February 2011, 2129
Bruce is 100% correct. Large pouch cells (think nissan leaf, volt, a123 cells) have a lot to be gained in manufacturing costs and energy density.

Cylindrical cells (18650 not headway size yet) are super cheap and energy dense, but you have to buy in bulk and it seems like a pain for most diyers to use/find. Unless you are tony and you're movie dates consist a bucket full of battery cells not popcorn :p

cycleguy
09 February 2011, 2139
That's true, but a 66% reduction over 6 years is not going to cut it when that technology is still so far from being anywhere close to where it needs to be.
Consumer electronics batteries aren't competing with other forms of power storage like EV's need to.
In order for EV's to become a realistic and competitive alternative, battery power density needs to double at minimum and quadruple ideally, along with a cost reduction of 200-300%, otherwise electric vehicles will be relegated to overpriced, underpowered impractical relics, incapable of becoming a profitable venture for any manufacturer.

Tony Coiro
09 February 2011, 2140
Cylindrical cells (18650 not headway size yet) are super cheap and energy dense, but you have to buy in bulk and it seems like a pain for most diyers to use/find. Unless you are tony and you're movie dates consist a bucket full of battery cells not popcorn :p

OH! You're supposed to put popcorn in the bucket? Is that why have such a hard time finding girls to go to the movies with? ;) Don't forget, packaging 18650 properly gets expensive quickly.

DaveAK
09 February 2011, 2149
When all the major auto manufacturers have a line of EVs rather than just a token effort the prices will plummet. It's just not a large enough market. It needs to hit critical mass.

Nuts & Volts
09 February 2011, 2155
OH! You're supposed to put popcorn in the bucket? Is that why have such a hard time finding girls to go to the movies with? ;) Don't forget, packaging 18650 properly gets expensive quickly.

Yes I do always seem to be eating the popcorn myself, but the right girl is the one whom enjoys the bucket full of batteries more.

My point on batteries is that cylindrical are cheap per cell, but are only cheap in a pack if they are scaled up (ie Tesla, not DIYERS)
The pouch/prismatic cells on the other hand cost more per cell, but make it easier/cheaper for packaging (less parts, screw terminals, etc.). So my thinking is that cylindrical cells will get somewhat cheaper, somewhat more energy dense, and somewhat more power dense. The pouch/prismatic cells have 'potential' to get a lot cheaper, somewhat denser too.

Now big breakthroughs list lithium air, supercaps, carbon nanotubes, etc. can make all my theories null in the end

Richard230
10 February 2011, 0825
It just dawned on me that "your cheap lithium batteries" are in my GPR-S.

electriKAT
10 February 2011, 0926
The first time I heard of TS batteries, they were selling for about $2/ah. That was late 2008. Over the next year they dropped to their current price of about $1.25/ah. That is a significant drop. But I think we're due for another one. With the increased demand and increased competition, I think it should have happened already. At $0.75/ah, I'm there!

billmi
10 February 2011, 1014
hobbycity! they get cheaper quick

But yea LiFePO4 and other larger format cells, aren't really getting any cheaper

That's a trend that will continue.
Market driving the large format LiFePO4 market is largely in aviation. The market driving innovation and cost reduction for the pouch cells is mobile phones - and there are some 5 billion plus mobile phone users on the planet.

Nuts & Volts
10 February 2011, 2039
Here they are :)

Good price on 16AH headways http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Headway/Headway-40160S-16ah-cell-LiFePO4-p42.html

Amazing price on 5ah 20C 6s cells http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25037&start=60
Ted if youre there i think this is your chance to go LiPo :)

Allen_okc
23 March 2011, 1055
i was told to use the turnigy batteries as well;

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616

im still a unborn newbie about the lithium - it just seems odd that four of these battery packs will drive a 48 volt 300 amp mars motor with a 400 amp kelly controller down the drag strip...

does anyone have an opinion about the quantity of this type of pack? do i need more?

four in parallel with the two in series...

cycleguy
23 March 2011, 1107
i was told to use the turnigy batteries as well;

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616

im still a unborn newbie about the lithium - it just seems odd that four of these battery packs will drive a 48 volt 300 amp mars motor with a 400 amp kelly controller down the drag strip...

does anyone have an opinion about the quantity of this type of pack? do i need more?

four in parallel with the two in series...

Since these cells are sold in series packs only, there is great difficulty in attaching a proper BMS and being able to bulk charge safely.
These cells are also lithium cobalt based chemistry, one of the most volatile chemistry's which makes it even more important to accurately monitor these on a cell level.
I wouldn't recommend these as your first entry to lithium, not to mention they have a relatively poor cycle life of around 400 cycles.

Nuts & Volts
23 March 2011, 1118
I have used 20C 5ah turnigy cells in my ebike. So the lowest brand turnigy's. I used 14s1p of 5Ah cells so about ~57V charged up. I was riding up a super steep hill last week in san fran and here are my numbers

-SOC of about 80% to 85%
- 40-50 sec runtime
- 1650 W power draw roughly the whole time (WOT)
- V sagged to about ~51V (so about 3.65V per cell)
- Cells were pulling about 35A or about 7C (max of controller)
- I used about 9 to 10% of pack capacity (V floated back up to ~54.5V after hill run)
-this was running the controller at its max so efficiency may have been really down.

So looking at those numbers I would say those nano's should kick some ass :) just keep in mind voltage sag


I wouldn't recommend these as your first entry to lithium, not to mention they have a relatively poor cycle life of around 400 cycles.
Any sources for these numbers? He linked the nanotech cells which are very robust in the tests I have seen (even staying alive after a 200C burst). They have less voltage sag and claim a better cycle life than most standard turnigy cells.

NonPolluter
24 March 2011, 0844
WARNING - A poster in the Thundersky large-lithium battery Yahoo Group alleges that cheap ones may be fakes.

ZoomSmith
24 March 2011, 0854
A knock off of a Chinese product? Is that a sign of progress?

Richard230
24 March 2011, 0912
It is about time the Chinese started copying their own products. :D I wonder how the shoe feels on the other foot. :rolleyes:

frodus
24 March 2011, 0937
its only a couple messages, and its only from one guy that got some from a scooter/scooter company in Cali.

One instance doesn't make me worry too much, they're probably really old originals if anything.