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frodus replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" REPOSTING what I wrote on diyelectriccar.com

NOTE TO ALL: He has the same topic thread going on over on diyelectriccar.com and it's all eerily similar.
Click here to view the thread


DysFunctionalArtist:

As far as I can tell, every single thread you start, you ask for advice, then get your panties in a bunch when we don't agree with it. Then you argue for pages and pages of a thread. We're just trying to point you the right direction.

Then you go on other forums, trying the same thing, trying to get the answer you want. You did it a few months back and got banned from Elmoto, then apologized. Now you're back at it again.

The designers of the 12V switches have already done the trial and error for you, which is why it's still rated for 12V and not 60V. What if that switch fails, do you want to touch 60VDC?

Other DIY EV Builders like yourself have also done the trial and error, and I've seen many times where someone uses a undersized switch and it stops working eventually because of pitting and arcing causing the contacts to get dirty. It will fail at some point, regardless of the current going through it. It could be milli-amps and still arc because it's 60V, and not 12V.

You came here to ask about what to use, we tell you, you argue why you shouldn't. It's clear to me you never wanted an answer, as you'd already made up your mind.

I think you just wanted the drama.





I'm blocking you on both forums, and I urge other members to do the same. "

59 Minutes Ago

frodus replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" I can ship internationally if you need help. I may have some on hand.

Remind me the motor and controller you're using? And battery voltage and max battery current you wish to use? "

1 Hour Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" LOL got that. I generally go to eBay first with the mfr number - I think that's specific to your locale, right? "

3 Hours Ago

flo replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" Haha
thanks Ted.
Its more trying to find them in either germany or eu so i do not pay horrendous shipping and import tax.
thanks "

3 Hours Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" Ah, your Google Skills are weak, grasshopper.

I'd start here: https://www.powerfuse.com/fuses/

I believe in most cases you can then search the part numbers for possible cheaper suppliers.

Or this: http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2_38

They list the mfr part number too, if you need to find a supplier that's more local to you. "

3 Hours Ago

flo replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" Hi all
A question about fuses:
so far i have found only one (semi?) suitable fuse, this one:
Attachment 8085

and it says only 80V DC which is slightly less than my fully charged battery will sit at (90V)
Of course during an actual drive the battery will sag but probably stay for some time above the rating of the fuse..

Should this concern me? Or is there (from experience) some leeway as long as amps stay within range...

Any opinions?

greets

flo "

4 Hours Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" Perfect.

You suggest Travis isn't familiar with controllers (his credentials are well documented and known), and you're lecturing me on the Scientific Method. (I happen to have studied that shit for 4 years and continued my fascination with it, and the development of technology for about 40 years more... I have a ****ing degree. Am I suggesting that's a little better than a Google search and a WikiDump? Why yes. Yes I am.)

Basically, what I'm seeing is you like to ask what the standard practices are, so you can end-run them with your chickenshit parts and materials, and then feel like you're smarter than everybody else. You also like to troll various forums (no less than 3, that I can find) until you get the answers you want to hear. People who point out your mistakes, you insult personally, as you've done with me time after time. Pissy? Jelly? I really regret stepping up for you and asking Mike to put you back on this forum. You contribute nothing.

Let this thread be a cautionary tale to anyone building any sort of EV. Do it right, and do it safe. There are always going to be jackasses who think they have a better way (when you build a bike that can go over 30mph, let me know, buddy) and ignore common-sense safety.

Don't be one of them. "

7 Hours Ago

Electro Flyers replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" And... here come the Wikidumps. You know what you're doing is not science. It's like a futile effort to try to reinvent the wheel. But that's all right, you can make this a basic science project. Do this if and only it can be done if a safe manner. If you can't do this safely, don't do it. You are completely on your own if you do this. Some of us have been through this, and know how dangerous it can be.

Keep track of the switches you're using. Type, application, ratings, model numbers, supplier, etc. Test them out in your project and let the world know how they work. I suspect you will find that, as I have and maybe others, that some will fail right away, some will last longer, and some do just fine. It seems the switches that are more massive(larger contacts, greater contact separation) will last longer and tolerate the excess arching that results from using them above their rated voltage. Speaking of arching - sometimes, not always, you can hear the arching as the switches are cycled off. It sounds like ZZZZZ. And, it seems to increase with intensity as the switch is used and ultimately fails.

Speaking of failures. You know if your brake light system fails because you used a switch not rated for high DC voltage, you could be rear ended. And the accident would be your fault. A lawyer for the other people in the accident would have a field day with the information you've posted here. Other systems could fail. No regen because of switch failure? Maybe you crash into somebody because the braking distance is longer than anticipated. Key switch fails? I've had this happen on a small scooter. I could not find one (I still have not found one) rated for a 48VDC system. I bypassed the bad switch, forgot about the bypass. cranked the throttle thinking the system was off, and plowed into a group of people. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.

DISCLAIMER: As noted before, anything you do related to the preceding paragraphs is completely on you. If it cannot be done in a safe manner, don't do it. An engineer would probably never share this kind of information with you. If something bad happened, they could lose their license and possibly be sued. I'm sharing it with you because I take pity on you. I can't figure out if you are just stubborn, stupid or both.

Ted, he's quoting Tony Soprano AND Charles Sanders Peirce, I think it's time to get the group back together. "

9 Hours Ago

Functional Artist replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" Yes, I asked for the forums input but, "you" (or anyone) shouldn't get "pissy" if I (or anyone else) don't just blindly follow it.

I am still researching & gathering information, your input is just (1) piece of the equation.


Let me remind you'all of The Scientific Method.

The scientific method is an empirical method of knowledge acquisition which has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, which includes rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions about how the world works influence how one interprets a percept. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as opposed to a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.

Though there are diverse models for the scientific method available, in general there is a continuous process that includes observations about the natural world. People are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear, and they often develop ideas or hypotheses about why things are the way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways. The most conclusive testing of hypotheses comes from reasoning based on carefully controlled experimental data. Depending on how well additional tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported, a general theory may be developed.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, they are frequently the same from one to another. The process of the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions. A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.

The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis. Experiments can take place anywhere from a garage to CERN's Large Hadron Collider. There are difficulties in a formulaic statement of method, however. Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, it represents rather a set of general principles. Not all steps take place in every scientific inquiry (nor to the same degree), and they are not always in the same order.



Pragmatic model (Pragmatic theory of truth)

In 1877, Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914) characterized inquiry in general not as the pursuit of truth per se but as the struggle to move from irritating, inhibitory doubts born of surprises, disagreements, and the like, and to reach a secure belief, belief being that on which one is prepared to act. He framed scientific inquiry as part of a broader spectrum and as spurred, like inquiry generally, by actual doubt, not mere verbal or hyperbolic doubt, which he held to be fruitless.

He outlined four methods of settling opinion, ordered from least to most successful:

1.The method of tenacity (policy of sticking to initial belief) – which brings comforts and decisiveness but leads to trying to ignore contrary information and others' views as if truth were intrinsically private, not public. It goes against the social impulse and easily falters since one may well notice when another's opinion is as good as one's own initial opinion. Its successes can shine but tend to be transitory.

2.The method of authority – which overcomes disagreements but sometimes brutally. Its successes can be majestic and long-lived, but it cannot operate thoroughly enough to suppress doubts indefinitely, especially when people learn of other societies present and past.

3.The method of the a priori – which promotes conformity less brutally but fosters opinions as something like tastes, arising in conversation and comparisons of perspectives in terms of "what is agreeable to reason." Thereby it depends on fashion in paradigms and goes in circles over time. It is more intellectual and respectable but, like the first two methods, sustains accidental and capricious beliefs, destining some minds to doubt it.

4.The scientific method – the method wherein inquiry regards itself as fallible and purposely tests itself and criticizes, corrects, and improves itself.


Peirce held that slow, stumbling ratiocination can be dangerously inferior to instinct and traditional sentiment in practical matters, and that the scientific method is best suited to theoretical research, which in turn should not be trammeled by the other methods and practical ends; reason's "first rule" is that, in order to learn, one must desire to learn and, as a corollary, must not block the way of inquiry. The scientific method excels the others by being deliberately designed to arrive – eventually – at the most secure beliefs, upon which the most successful practices can be based. Starting from the idea that people seek not truth per se but instead to subdue irritating, inhibitory doubt, Peirce showed how, through the struggle, some can come to submit to truth for the sake of belief's integrity, seek as truth the guidance of potential practice correctly to its given goal, and wed themselves to the scientific method.

For Peirce, rational inquiry implies presuppositions about truth and the real; to reason is to presuppose (and at least to hope), as a principle of the reasoner's self-regulation, that the real is discoverable and independent of our vagaries of opinion. In that vein he defined truth as the correspondence of a sign (in particular, a proposition) to its object and, pragmatically, not as actual consensus of some definite, finite community (such that to inquire would be to poll the experts), but instead as that final opinion which all investigators would reach sooner or later but still inevitably, if they were to push investigation far enough, even when they start from different points.[95] In tandem he defined the real as a true sign's object (be that object a possibility or quality, or an actuality or brute fact, or a necessity or norm or law), which is what it is independently of any finite community's opinion and, pragmatically, depends only on the final opinion destined in a sufficient investigation. That is a destination as far, or near, as the truth itself to you or me or the given finite community. Thus, his theory of inquiry boils down to "Do the science." Those conceptions of truth and the real involve the idea of a community both without definite limits (and thus potentially self-correcting as far as needed) and capable of definite increase of knowledge. As inference, "logic is rooted in the social principle" since it depends on a standpoint that is, in a sense, unlimited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method "

15 Hours Ago

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19 Hours Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" ah, I see you got some good advice over on DIY Electric Car*: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...9&postcount=12

I'd take it, if I were you.




*still up to your forum cross-posting habits as well, I see. "

19 Hours Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" "I've built at least (10) electric karts using these "low cost" Chinese controllers.
Used ones, new ones, brushed, brushless & have NEVER burned out or had a controller fail."


You've also never built anything that's over 60V, amirite? "

1 Day Ago

frodus replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" If you don't want our advice, why ask for it?
This is my last comment on the topic.

I'm a degreed Senior Electrical Engineer and design systems all day long using rated components for the application. I'd never use a 12V switch for something switching 24V, 60V or 120VDC. I'd use one rated for the voltage it is switching. There are reasons to use rated switches rather than 12V ones for switching higher voltage. Arcing causes pitting of the contacts. They WILL eventually fail and stop working, and you'll replace them and repeat the cycle. That's the trade-off of using a switch that isn't rated to switch 60V.

Will it work? Absolutely.
How many times will it work?
How long will it work? That's hard to tell. The arcing is affected by a combination of current AND voltage. Sure its a low current application (signal wires only), but the voltage is higher than the switch is designed for. If the voltage is higher than the contacts have been designed for and rated by the manufacturer, it is not guaranteed to function the full expected life of the product. "

1 Day Ago

flo replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" Haha
i thought so too - at first.
While it is no problem for the lower pack anyway itīs the pack within the tank causing headache... 0,5mm x 3 (p) times 10 (s) is 1.5 cm which eats up a tad more than the space that was left at the upper edges of he pack. Casing included ...Well i guess gasoline doesn`t come in square helpings
Will have to raise the tank as the pack sits on a cross member of the frame leaving only one direction to move...

flo "

2 Days Ago

Stevo replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" I find it hard to imagine that 1/2 mm can cause so much problem! Those are some very tight clearances Flo! Can't you lower them instead of raising them? "

2 Days Ago

flo replied to the thread Sachs xtc 125 conversion.
" HI all
guess its time for an update.
eventhough there is no visible progress i have at least ordered:

contactor ( gx14)
Attachment 8083

switch (HBD31)
Attachment 8083

and cells. Those:
Attachment 8084

10 batches of them so 70 cells

Going for 22s3p (90ah) will give me
-4 cells spare
-enough headroom for those usually overrated cells
-hopefully little voltage sag
-approx 70-75 usable amphrs for approx 70 miles range.

As is, i was just informed by the seller that the cells have miracously grown in size. Mainly getting thicker, from 7.5 to 8 millimeter. Which is a bummer, as now they will only fit by lifting the tank about 3 millimeter ( not too bad) and loosing the headroom above the cells in the tank for my cable routing... nothing not to be solved either. But it means that i won`t have the serviceability i was looking for and on top i will loose my charge-plug within the original fuel inlet...
Still- i got a great price on them and managed to save myself some 260 Euros compared to what they normally go for.

Anyway all items should be here early dec. and so i am on track again.

All of the most expensive items being paid i need to save for:
-CycleAnalist
-New Tires
-Charger
but comes spring i hope to have that sorted. "

2 Days Ago

Ted Dillard replied to the thread Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system.
" Just trying to give you the benefit of my own experience, there Sparky.

I have a drag-racing belt sander they told me couldn't deliver any more power than what the power cord could handle (16A @ 120V) until I powered it with Turnigy lipo and just used the power to switch the contactor. I get it, I get you're trying to explore the limits, but there's some stuff that I feel I'm better off going with conventional solutions. You asked.

I will point out, though, non-street legal 20mph carts are a little different than street-legal 100mph+ motorcycles that can leave you stranded 50 miles from home, and, again, as you asked for "proper" components. There they are, for you to work with or ignore.

And yes, that last post? Comes off as pretty ****ing cocky. My suspicion is that, rather than "watching and learning", those folks have given up trying to help you. (Once again, I find myself posting on your thread to caution other readers, not to necessarily try to help you out... just sayin'.) "

2 Days Ago