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Thread: AC-23 or new oil cooled motors from HPEVs?

              
   
   
  1. #1
    Member robermelendez's Avatar
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    AC-23 or new oil cooled motors from HPEVs?

    Like many of you I am an AC20 fan,

    However I saw the Ac23 motor from HPEVs (more torque, but lower base speed), I was thinking it might pose some advantages in terms of the rear-front sprocket gearing. I run a Ac20 with 12:60 ratio and I'm a little nervous about such a small front sprocket (but i like the ratio at 100Nm of motor torque), if i used a Ac23 i could gear 4:1 or even 3:1. It also might help folks with issues in sprocket to swingarm clearance.

    power graphs here

    http://hpevs.com/catalog-ac-20.htm

    Finally does anyone have any experiences with the oil cooled marine motors from HPEVs?

    http://hpevs.com/oil-cooled-drive-systems.htm

  2. #2
    Senior Member DRZ400's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great motor to work with my Suzuki Savage Belt Drive!
    2003 Ninja 250EX, Agni #95R, 6:1 Gearing, 11 Leaf Modules.
    Alltrax SPM72400, 400 amp Controller, all LED lighting
    2014 CRF450X Supermoto
    http://www.evalbum.com/1955
    http://www.evalbum.com/3337

  3. #3
    Senior Member Hugues's Avatar
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    yeah ! , never compared the torque chart of ac-20 and ac-23, this is pretty impressive, 1.5 x the torque right off the bat, that would give me 1'086 Nm When did they start to sell it ?

    ok, the tradeoff is lower torque at higher rev. For my ratio (6.3), the ac-23 would start to output less torque then the ac-20 above 80 km/h (50 mi/h). Considering that i spend most of my time riding below 80-90 km/h (never go on highway), this is quite interesting.

    I need to simulate the 0-60 mph acceleration time between the 2, surely the ac-23 is much better.

    I don't know if you could run your ac-23 at below 4:1 ratio though. Initially i ran my ac-20 at just above 4:1 and it was overheating like crazy. Ok, my bike is 280 kgs but...

    As for their oil cooled, can't use'em, they are too big. Anything bigger than ac-20 won't fit within my swingarm.

    thanks for the post, i might have found my next upgrade, my wife will hate you LOL

    did you find the price online somewhere ?
    Last edited by Hugues; 24 July 2015 at 1235.
    Regards from Switzerland
    My 2.5 Upgrade Thread

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    Seņor Member podolefsky's Avatar
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    The 23 has higher peak torque at low RPM, but the continuous power is about the same. Continuous power output is basically proportional to copper fill at low RPM, Since both motors use the same frame, both have the same copper fill and roughly the same continuous power.

    Actually, the continuous charts show the 20 will provide slightly higher torque and power below 4000 RPM. If you're overheating the AC-20 at low speed, gearing for lower RPM and running the AC-23 will probably make things worse. Generally speaking, if you're overheating at low speed, you want to gear for higher RPM. Changing the winding and gearing won't help that much.

    I've run an 11 tooth on an AC-20 for a couple years without issue. 11 is pushing it, 12 should be fine.

    The oil cooled motors are meant for boats and assume cool water is flowing through the heat exchanger. See big red warning here.
    - Noah Podolefsky -
    The GSX-E

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    Senior Member Hugues's Avatar
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    Actually, using peak torque graphs, which i think is a correct assumption for regular street riding with occasional peak demand, i plugged in the torque in the EV_Super_Estimator spreadsheet to compare acceleration of both motor. That gives in my case (6.29 ratio, 805 total weight):

    Top speed AC-20 time sec AC-23 time sec
    0-30 mph 2.3 1.7
    0-50 mph 4.1 3.4
    0-60 mph 5.1 4.8

    So yeah, not as much as I expected on the 0-60 time. Although it is not often i really go full blast to 60 mph form a dead stop. I would more go to 50 mph from a dead stop, and here i gain almost a second, probably enough to justify bragging rights . Claiming in excess of 1'000 Nm on the wheel has also some appeal i must say LOL. The 0 to 30 mph figure surely shows the bike would feel more responsive from a dead start, which i feel is lacking today.

    For heavy street riding or riding uphill, which i encounter each time i go back home, need to look at continuous graph. Here, i'm a little worried, the vented fan cooled graph are really different as to peak torque. The AC-20 allows 130 ft.lbs up to 4000 rpm whereas the AC-23 allows only 70 to 80 ft.lbs. This is pretty much the show stopper for me as today my fan cooled AC-20 would start to de-rate (Curtis protection kicking in at high temp) if i ride heavy and then go up hill for a while. The AC-23 would then probably de-rate much faster unless i reduce my demand sharply, which i cannot do that much while going uphill.

    Too bad, the fun lasted only 12 hours.
    Last edited by Hugues; 25 July 2015 at 0108.
    Regards from Switzerland
    My 2.5 Upgrade Thread

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    Senior Member ARC EV Racing's Avatar
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    the ac23 is designed to complement to higher voltage Curtis controllers (144v). They perform very well. Returning 80+hp.

    We have a pairing for sale in the for sale section with controllers which could be split if anyone is interested. We also have a spare brand new 144v controller.

    www.arc-ev-engineering.co.uk

    ARCEVRacing on twitter

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    Senior Member Athlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugues View Post
    For heavy street riding or riding uphill, which i encounter each time i go back home, need to look at continuous graph. Here, i'm a little worried, the vented fan cooled graph are really different as to peak torque. The AC-20 allows 130 ft.lbs up to 4000 rpm whereas the AC-23 allows only 70 to 80 ft.lbs. This is pretty much the show stopper for me as today my fan cooled AC-20 would start to de-rate (Curtis protection kicking in at high temp) if i ride heavy and then go up hill for a while. The AC-23 would then probably de-rate much faster unless i reduce my demand sharply, which i cannot do that much while going uphill.

    Too bad, the fun lasted only 12 hours.

    since your porblem are the mountain I still think that a small hiddend distilled water spry evaporative coling can really solve your problem.
    Water evaporation can really take away huge amount of heat , less than a soda can can keep your motor cool for lot of time , all you need is a wiper water pump a spry nozzle nothing more.

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    Senior Member Athlon's Avatar
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    BTW , i'm almost done with some PM motors for the new Curtis E with PM firmware power size will be 25 -35- 44kw continous S1

  10. #9
    Senior Member Hugues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlon View Post
    since your porblem are the mountain I still think that a small hiddend distilled water spry evaporative coling can really solve your problem.
    Water evaporation can really take away huge amount of heat , less than a soda can can keep your motor cool for lot of time , all you need is a wiper water pump a spry nozzle nothing more.
    thanks, i'm still keeping this idea as plan B, my plan A is about to arrive, PLA/copper filament, i will 3d print a heat sink for my motor, pyrolize the PLA, then i'll be left with copper, should help to dissipate heat.
    Regards from Switzerland
    My 2.5 Upgrade Thread

  11. #10
    Senior Member Hugues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARC EV Racing View Post
    the ac23 is designed to complement to higher voltage Curtis controllers (144v). They perform very well. Returning 80+hp.

    We have a pairing for sale in the for sale section with controllers which could be split if anyone is interested. We also have a spare brand new 144v controller.
    does the ac-23 run hotter than ac-20 ?

    do you think i have any tangible benefits to upgrade to an ac-23 if i keep my current controller and 96 volts ? Or i need the new controller as well AND higher voltage (which could be a big job) ?
    Regards from Switzerland
    My 2.5 Upgrade Thread

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