Power in Flux
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Thread: Transmissions. yeah.

              
   
   
  1. #171
    Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Let me try to explain to you why it's fairly important to keep a thread on-topic, and start threads appropriate to the intended subject.

    So you can find stuff later.

    I've been a member here since about a year after this forum started, and we have had many incredibly productive discussions. Yes, dual and triple motors, how to control them and all that. It's useless in the future if you can't find it. If you want to link nice graphs, I can show you how to do that. There are a couple of ways... As far as me building everything, no, I've only built about 6 bikes, but a whole lot of people here have built a whole lot of things. Dice, for example, has run twin motors in various record-holding drag bikes you may want to look into.

    Seems like you're into poking people, I'm not. Anyway, I'll leave it up to Mike or whoever's moderating these days about the off-topic issue, and go back to pretty much ignoring this thread, have a blast.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
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  2. #172
    Senior Member T Rush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Dillard View Post
    Let me try to explain to you why it's fairly important to keep a thread on-topic, and start threads appropriate to the intended subject.

    So you can find stuff later.
    .
    oops, sorry, maybe you missed this part of my post right before your last one
    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    ...
    however, I actually look at this thread as if you guys missed half the subject(I did read the whole thing), and only talked about the trans and forgot to talk about the duals....so I'm bringing it back on topic

    .....

    I keep pointing people to look at the nice big graph on page 2 of this thread (sorry Ted, while yes I found this thread because it was started with the blog post about dual motors, I used this thread because it had that wonderful graph posted in it...yes I realize this thread got sucked into the transmission rabbit hole vortex, but it can't hurt to also spend some time on the other side of the OP's subject

    ...
    and this is what I first said to 'bump' this thread
    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    I've been reading thru a bunch of these threads, and Ted's blog
    ....and when I read on Ted's blog the TRANSMISSIONS VS. DUAL MOTORS he used to start this thread....it gave me an idea
    and of course in my first reply to you
    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    ...I was only using this thread because a while ago I read your blog post about dual motors...so I did a forum search here to see if there were any threads already on it...and there was this one
    but I'll tell you what.....no one seems to be grasping my 'non transmission dual ratio motors' concept here anyway(tho I did get a 'like' on one of my posts here, for whatever thats worth) and because you asked, and you are the thread starter...I'll go elsewhere *sigh*
    (gosh, wouldn't it suck if I started another thread with my idea, and someone posts: 'just get a transmission instead' and that thread joins this one in the rabbit hole trans vortex of hell...lol)

    seriously tho, sorry if I miss-used your thread, that was not my intention at all


    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Dillard View Post
    Seems like you're into poking people, I'm not. Anyway, I'll leave it up to Mike or whoever's moderating these days about the off-topic issue, and go back to pretty much ignoring this thread, have a blast.
    ok, this is actually why I bothered to still post in this thread besides just leaving it as you have asked

    yes Ted, you and cdc actually started the 'poking'...I can(and did) quote you on it

    but peace man, I have big respect for you and your writing
    ...moving on now
    Last edited by T Rush; 3 Weeks Ago at 0657. Reason: ...the Duck says "you got any duck food?"...

  3. #173
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    I still like the concept of using a compact two-speed transmission on an electric motorcycle, but finding an off-the-shelf transmission like that that is of the correct size and has sufficient torque capacity, is likely to be a real challenge. I seem to recall that at one time the Japanese manufacturers had some off-road (and on-road, which really didn't make any sense at all) motorcycle models with a secondary two-speed transmission that would change the overall drive ratio to provide a "granny" gear for low speed, high torque, running. I wonder if any of those old bikes are still around?
    Richard - Current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield 500, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  4. #174
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    (half bakery 2 motor 2 ratio discussion continued here: http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=4629&page=5 )

    I'm w/you Richard, nothing wrong with the cheap seats Especially if your goals are a simple commuter that can operate continuously at speed and not leave you stranded at the bottom of a hill. The jury is still out on raw performance, but no-trans seems to be in the lead, but that is subject to change as various kinds of unobtanium come to market.

    edit: I wouldn't entirely rule out a transmission that reverses the order of ratio change on startup for that matter, if you look at it from a wheel torque control perspective and figure out how to get rid of the flat part of the torque graph. (%99.999 certain the idea is half baked, but maybe).
    Last edited by dcb; 3 Weeks Ago at 0750.

  5. #175
    Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    They are still around, Richard, but the way they're designed they're almost impossible to implement effectively in an electric bike. Chris Bell actually built a custom reduction gearbox, complete with housing, and we chatted for a while about a simple switch-while-stopped dual range (2 speed) gearbox. Unless you're Chris Bell, however, it's a pretty tough machine to build.

    And, I might add, pretty much unproven concept.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

  6. #176
    Senior Member T Rush's Avatar
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    [sheepishly pokes head back in this thread]

    ah, sure, I can talk 'on topic' about transmissions, I guess
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard230 View Post
    I still like the concept of using a compact two-speed transmission on an electric motorcycle, but finding an off-the-shelf transmission like that that is of the correct size and has sufficient torque capacity, is likely to be a real challenge. I seem to recall that at one time the Japanese manufacturers had some off-road (and on-road, which really didn't make any sense at all) motorcycle models with a secondary two-speed transmission that would change the overall drive ratio to provide a "granny" gear for low speed, high torque, running. I wonder if any of those old bikes are still around?
    yeah, sadly not only did I read all of this thread...but I read many others on this too...so I know where that information is posted
    here:
    Quote Originally Posted by miscrms View Post
    ...

    Doing a little googling I discovered that there was at least one production motorcycle that used a similar scheme, the 1980-82 Honda CB900C (and maybe a goldwing of similar era?):
    http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mod...b900c%2082.htm
    ...
    I've thought(and many others have posted over the years) that there are actually a lot of motorcycle transmissions you could use if you wanted
    ...you just don't have to use all their gears


    [/runs away and hides again]

  7. #177
    Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    ...which is how a lot of Brammo Empulse users report they actually ride with the thing.

    That idea about "you could use if you wanted" is fine, until you have to actually design an interface or housing with your motor. When you start to do the actual work (which I've started, even to buying a bike just for the tranny), it becomes pretty clear pretty fast that it's easier just to design one from scratch. Especially since none of them are designed for an electric motor's torque delivery.

    Am I still talking? Dammit.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

  8. #178
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    The Eindhoven Storm ran a two speed to good effect. Whether this would be a value proposition in a bike you actually had to sell, and make money on, is anybody's guess.

    https://www.storm-eindhoven.com/STORM_Wave

  9. #179
    Senior Member T Rush's Avatar
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    that looks novel

    yeah, out of all the ways I've looked at it, and excuses for adding in a trans to an EV(that really doesn't need one in the way they are traditionally used with ICE)
    ...like I thought: 'hey, if I have to do a jackshaft anyway, I guess it might as well be a trans so the motor can spin the default direction'
    it just didn't seem worth it to add an extra part that likely wouldn't get utilized in all occasions, and goes back to requiring oil changes

    its like one of those problems you think you might have, but maybe never really is that bad.....I haven't seen a lot of people posting where they are so frustrated with their EVs, because they don't like the fixed final drive ratio they have

  10. #180
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    fwiw, the cb900 only changes the ratio by ~%17, hardly worth the effort IMHO.

    If you don't have specific performance goals, plenty of things are perfectly drive-able. I wan't my 750 sized motorcycle to leave the line... like a 750 motorcycle, and don't mind if it is just plain old driveable after 20mph or so (you are already out in front of traffic from the light, so it doesn't matter much as long as you don't get in the way), which is why I entertain this stuff.

    the jackshaft tranny doesn't have to be soaked in oil fwiw, if you use toothed pullies/belts and a dog clutch. and belts are a better fit for the high rpm side of things. But bla bla bla.

    Speaking of cheap, I did make a retro-direct 2 speed scooter a long time ago, made a HUGE difference, could actually climb the hills and have ok top speed (for a cheapie scooter). You reverse the motor to change gears (with a switch).

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