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Thread: Electric Harley?

              
   
   
  1. #11
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    That's exactly the right question!

    This is a completely new company direction.

  2. #12
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    Ride review just went live:

    http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19...-photos-video/


    I would definitely have that - feckin' gorgeous!!
    Last edited by Spoonman; 19 June 2014 at 0553.

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  4. #13
    Senior Member Spaceweasel's Avatar
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    Video from Harley Davidson - this thing looks really cool!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6F8O5A__Ds

  5. #14
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    Here is another article: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...exhaust-demand

    I wonder if H-D is going into the "carbon credit" or "cap-and-trade" business? That bike will definitely attract another type of customer, one that most likely will not be welcome in a "biker" bar.

    This A&R updated article includes specifications: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bike...dson-livewire/

    Lots of studio photos here: http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/19/58...-livewire-tour
    Richard - Current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield 500, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  6. #15
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    Right - so I've been trying to cobble together a full spec.

    Just found a range quoted here at 53miles (85km).

    The picture I've attached is a screenshot of the dashboard in that first ride review video and it suggest 15mile @ 25% charge, which falls broadly in line with the above.

    That's pretty poor, and certainly doesn't tally with a 14kWh battery a mentioned in the earlier first ride article.
    The thing it does tell us though is that it's a high voltage pack, meaning that high motor RPM is a certainty.

    The article linked above also gives out about the 95mph top speed - I'd have said that was pretty damn good for a HD!

    Commonly mentioned is a 53ft.lb torque figure - now that's either plain wrong or is a "crank" figure - you couldn't spin up a tire the way it does in ride review video, or hit 0-100k in 4sec with that little torque. Hell the Zero makes ~60ft.lbs and claims 5.8sec, and it doesn't get off the line anything like that!

    There's likely a bevel gear with a (purely speculative) ~3.5:1 reduction at the drive end of the motor, meaning potentially ~175ft.lbs at the front sprocket, and then whatever the final sprocket ratio is after that* - which would be far more like what I'd expect for that 0-60 time and that tire squeal off the line, whilst an 9-10krpm rev ceiling for the motor would still giving it enough to approach the ton even with that gear reduction.

    * if you assume about 2.5:1 (14 tooth front, 35 tooth rear) that puts you roughly in the region of peak torque of:

    - an NC24 (VFR400) in 2nd gear [peak torque of 29ft.lbs, primary reduction 2.117, final reduction 2.75, 2nd gear reduction 2.35. Total reduction ~13.7 -> ~400ft.lbs peak at the rear wheel excluding drivetrain losses]

    - or a TL1000S in 4th [peak 77ft.lbs, primary 1.83, final 2.34, 4th gear 1.23. Total reduction 5.04 -> ~390ft.lbs]

    Those are the only bikes that I've got full gearing ratios to hand for - that's also roughly the performance delivered by an AC15 motor on a 96V 650A controller @ 5:1 gearing - so it's both realistic and achievable.

    Zero on the other hand use an axial flux motor, and they or course tend to have higher peak torque but significantly less RPM, which would explain why the Livewire could gear lower and get more whack at the rear wheel without sacrificing the top end.


    SO, in summary, here's the speculative spec sheet.

    Battery: ~11kWh (based on Zero SR power consumption and range); ~360V
    Motor: 6-pole radial flux induction motor
    Peak power: 74bhp (~55kW)
    Peak torque: 53ft.lbs (at the crank)
    Performance 0-60: 4sec (claimed)
    Range: ~100km (we could potentially assume that to be a "ragging the hell out of it figure" if we're willing to assume that the test bike has been ridden hard the BMS is basing the remaining range on the previous ~15minutes of use [that's how the Leaf does things] )
    Front brake: Single 320mm rigid rotor & 2-pot single sided caliper
    Rear brake: Single pot caliper on standard rigid rotor
    Front tyre: Michelin Scorcher 120/70R17
    Rear tyre: Michelin Scorcher 180/55R17
    Rear suspension: Direct acting monoshock, external reservoir with some apparent adjustment available
    Front suspension: Twin USD's with what looks like preload only
    Charging standard: unknown (J1772/ChaDeMo/custom?)
    Charge time: ~3.5hrs
    Price: ??? anyones guess - I'd expect ~20K if it's only a 10kWh battery, up to 26k if they bump that up to 15kWh.


    That's as much as I can figure - feel free to edit an amend as appropriate.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #16
    Moderator Nuts & Volts's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Spoonman;44610]That's pretty poor, and certainly doesn't tally with a 14kWh battery a mentioned in the earlier first ride article.

    14kWh is a very uneducated guess with a range figure of 53miles. My guess is that they have a 7kWh battery pack and went for a cheaper/lighter package than a Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    The thing it does tell us though is that it's a high voltage pack, meaning that high motor RPM is a certainty.
    This isn't necessarily true in all cases especially with an induction motor. But I do agree that the motor most likely spins up above 10k RPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    Zero on the other hand use an axial flux motor, and they or course tend to have higher peak torque but significantly less RPM, which would explain why the Livewire could gear lower and get more whack at the rear wheel without sacrificing the top end..
    Zero does not have an axial motor. I personally have two of the motors and they are both radial flux machines with a large radius which is what helps produce the high torque they have. They are RPM limited, but the centrificial forces on the rotor when it spins much about 6000RPM.

    Question, where did you see it mentioned that the motor was 6pole?

    For what it's worth I dont think this would see production for another 2-3years. Seems mostly a way to collect data, test technology and gain marketing.
    Whats under my tank may shock you!!! R6 Build, Blog/, [/URL] OSU Current webpage

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  9. #17
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    I note that a quick shot of the instrument panel in the CW video showed a pack voltage of 300V. I read somewhere today that they are using a Mission Motors motor and electronics, which sounds about right. I can really see H-D paying MM to consult with their engineers during the building of this prototype, rather than trying to do it themselves from scratch. But from the engineers' comments I agree that it sounds like the bike, if H-D decides to build it, is at least 2 or 3 years away from production.
    Richard - Current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield 500, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  10. #18
    EVangelist electriKAT's Avatar
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    So they do some R&D, gauge interest, and then produce a refined product; nothing wrong with that approach. BMW converted a batch of Mini Coopers first with help from AC Propulsion, then built a bunch of 1 series cars called ActiveE, all before they brought out the i3. And the i3 is awesome.

  11. #19
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    [QUOTE=Nuts & Volts;44611]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    That's pretty poor, and certainly doesn't tally with a 14kWh battery a mentioned in the earlier first ride article.

    14kWh is a very uneducated guess with a range figure of 53miles. My guess is that they have a 7kWh battery pack and went for a cheaper/lighter package than a Zero.
    Agreed - definitely a smaller pack alright

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts & Volts View Post
    Zero does not have an axial motor. They are RPM limited, but the centrificial forces on the rotor when it spins much about 6000RPM.
    Now that I'm surprised by - I had assumed that the larger diameter was on that account. In any case, yeah, it's that extra diameter that both provides the extra torque and restricts the rev limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts & Volts View Post
    Question, where did you see it mentioned that the motor was 6pole?
    I didn't - that much was an assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts & Volts View Post
    For what it's worth I dont think this would see production for another 2-3years. Seems mostly a way to collect data, test technology and gain marketing.
    Was talking to the two national outfits here earlier today and what they're saying falls in line with that assertion. They're basically going on a "public opinion tour" for the next ~18 months or more and there's little intention to actually deliver anything until about another 12months after that.

    Having said that, test rides in the US will be available this year - granted, you'll have to be on the tour route and schedule, but the chance is there. They aren't due to hit Europe until late summer next year.

  12. #20
    Senior Member protomech's Avatar
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    Also:

    Weight 460 lbs (latimes)
    Showa USD forks
    Top speed 92 mph, electronically limited
    Motor torque 52 ft-lb, 48 ft-lb at 8000 rpm peak power point (74 HP / 55 kW)

    I wrote up a summary here, including a list of speculative tour cities based upon a map shown in their invested relations video.

    http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/...ject-livewire/
    2006 Suzuki GS500, sold
    2012 Zero S ZF9
    http://protomech.wordpress.com/

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