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Thread: Hello from Switzerland

              
   
   
  1. #1
    Junior Member Ian's Avatar
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    Hello from Switzerland

    I'm British, but I've been living in Switzerland for a long time.

    Well after lurking in the wings for many years, I'm finally able to come out and build my thing.
    Living in the same neck of the woods as Hugues, I had the pleasure of meeting him, oogling his mean bike and picking his brains at an Electrofun event back in May. I was pondering buying his redundant AC-20, but he's convinced me that the AC-23 is the way to go because of the low down torque (sorry Hugues), as I also will mainly travel in the sub 80kmh area with occasional short trips on the Autobahn (120kmh) I'm looking for a top speed of around 150kmh.

    So my eHogg will be a 2001 Hayabusa, of which I just managed to purchase a rolling chassis for CHF 1'000 (roughly 1:1 with US$) Hopefully to be finished sometime in 2018 and will try to keep the cost to sub CHF 15'000. The busa has an unladen weight of 320kg of which I'm not allowed to exceed. I'm giving it the Streetfighter hack, along the lines of the drifting Busa Fins, Mad Kuusaa's Destroyer.

    Spec wise I have in mind:

    Motor / Controller:
    HPEVS AC-23 either 96v @ 650A / 108v @ 650A / 144v @ 500A with regards to battery space / weight / cost, (maybe 144v is not really necessary).
    Curtis 1238 - 7601 / 1239E - 8501

    Batteries:
    Nissan Leaf batteries (not too readily available in Europe).
    18650 @ 30A (Assemble my own packs)
    2170 @ 30A (new Tesla battery, hopefully, available to the masses next year, also assemble my own packs).


    Am I right in calculating for 96v @ 650A taking 18650 @ 30A batteries:
    96 / 3.7 = 26
    650 / 30 = 22
    26 * 22 = 572 Batteries

    Would be extremely grateful for any advice especially on, contactor, BMS, charger, a cool systems display maybe Android based?

    PS. I'm quite handy with Filemaker Pro databases and can make standalone calculation databases. If someone wants to supply the equations and sample data (kWh, drive ratio, etc.) I could knock together a database to share if there is an interest?

    Regards
    Ian
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    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Hi Ian...
    I'll be watching your progress on this build as it looks very cool indeed. My suggestion is get the motor, controller and all the electronics/lighting/wire harnessing complete before buying the batteries, then hopefully the 2170's will be available. Absolutely go with the 2170 for this build, or maybe some new chem pouch cells will be available at that time, as I believe the pouch manufacturers are going to give Elon some real competition soon.
    As far as android display goes, I am clueless about programming, but I would love to see someone develop a speedometer display using one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Galax...ag=reactual-20
    It could become your secure keyless ignition, GPS, Battery pack interface, as well as your speedometer/odometer. It's waterproof and crash proof.
    Cheers and have fun with your build. Very nice choice for a chassis
    Original build: http://vorworxemc.wix.com/vorworx
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4

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    Howdy,

    Busa is a great chassis for this project - would certainly be my choice.
    2170 will be great then they become available, but if you want to do anything in 2018 then it's going to be 18650's.

    Your maths above are correct but a quite simplistic.
    Those numbers give you a total capacity of about 5.3-6kWh; depending on what range you want, I'd be inclined to look towards doubling that figure.
    This also has the added benefit of reducing the load on any individual cell which will reduce heating, and at the center of your pack, that's going to be a big deal - there's a reason Tesla liquid cool theirs!

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    Senior Member Spaceweasel's Avatar
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    Welcome! I think that Busa will be a great chassis to build from. Strong and spacious. While some people advocate tiny 250cc chassis for their light weight, I've always been of the mind that a the bigger bike frames are already engineered for the final weight of an EV conversion. You said that you "are not allowed to exceed" the original weight - is that your design constraint or one imposed by regulatory agencies?

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    Junior Member Ian's Avatar
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    Hello all and thanks

    Yes I wanted something with a bit of weight behind it, a bit of crosswind on a 250cc and your in the weeds!! it also seems I always land with Suzukis, GT250, GT550 and my last a Streetfighter'ed GSXR 1100, and this Busa came up so it must be the natural progression!

    @ Stevo
    I'll start a build thread when I've made some headway on the build and I thought that also, sort out the batteries last thing, I do hope the 2170 will be available sometime next year. Thanks for the Samsung link, there is a Raspberry Pi type Android Micro Controller coming out soon and there will definitely be some GPS, WIFI Bluetooth modules for it, I'm not a great programmer myself but I can hack enough to get modules working on Rasp Pi's and Arduino's so I thought I could imbed a waterproof touch screen into the top of the tank and power it with one of those and try to display some CanBus stuff to start with. There's a Micro Controller thread here on Elmoto, maybe we could get our collective heads together, ideas and hackers?

    @ Spoonman
    I'm not too hot on the kWh needs and calculations, I'll be mainly riding it to work 15km one way plus a Sunday ride somewhere, so I think it'ed be in the 100 – 150km range.
    The Busa frame is big but I'm not sure a 1'000+ batteries would fit in there!!
    I was thinking of routing the original air ducting through the frame to cool the batteries somehow.
    How does one calculate kWh and a EV range needs?

    @ Spaceweasel
    Apart from that it also has to look Muscle ;o)
    Yes I phoned the powers that be here quite a while ago, and they stipulated that the build can't exceed the original dry weight, because of brakes frame stress and that.

    Ian

  10. #6
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    Hi Ian

    Why don't you look at the new NCM 150AH Cells from lithiumstorage.eu with a office near Zurich. You could run them with the Orion BMS wich they sell aswell.
    http://www.lithiumstorage.eu/index.p...ncm-150ah.html
    Cells are around 250CHF each, BMS same price as in US.

    Cheers,
    Fabian

  11. #7
    Junior Member Ian's Avatar
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    Hey Fabian

    Thanks for the link, they're not to far from me.
    Unfortunately I'm looking at running at 144v !!
    So @ 3.7v nominal I'd need about 39 of them which would equal out to CHF 9750, 132kg and quite a bit of space, I see they also have 75Ah at half the thickness and weight, maybe their also half the price?
    I'll do some looking in to them.

    Thanks
    Ian


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #8
    Senior Member Hugues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    ...
    I was thinking of routing the original air ducting through the frame to cool the batteries somehow.
    How does one calculate kWh and a EV range needs?
    ...
    Hey Ian,

    if you are not going to race with the bike on a track, then you shouldn't worry about the batteries getting hot. But your motor and controller should be nicely ventilated.
    Regards from Switzerland
    My 2.5 Upgrade Thread

  13. #9
    Junior Member Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugues View Post

    if you are not going to race with the bike on a track, then you shouldn't worry about the batteries getting hot. But your motor and controller should be nicely ventilated.
    Hey Hugues,

    Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

    Ian

  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    @ Spoonman
    I'm not too hot on the kWh needs and calculations, I'll be mainly riding it to work 15km one way plus a Sunday ride somewhere, so I think it'ed be in the 100 150km range.
    The Busa frame is big but I'm not sure a 1'000+ batteries would fit in there!!
    I was thinking of routing the original air ducting through the frame to cool the batteries somehow.
    How does one calculate kWh and a EV range needs?
    There are a lot of factors which go into numerically calculating your kWh/km on any bike, not least of all terrain and speed.
    In my experience though, you'd want to be budgeting about 0.1kWh/km given a moderate riding style, flat terrain, limited start-stop riding and reasonably slick drivetrain.
    Some around here have managed in the region of 0.06kWh/km but I can't imagine that the sort of riding it takes to achieve that would be a whole lot of fun () and particularly not on as big a beast as the busa.

    For your 30km roundtrip, the 5kWhr pack will be well capable - your sunday spin though will require a bit more. I've done the maths many times and for a reliable 120km on flat terrain, you need to be running 10.6-11kWhr, riding smooth, and keeping the drivetrain as slick as you can.

    As to 'cubing out', ...[goes off looking for an excel sheet he did up *years* ago] ... so I last looked at this about 3 years ago (before I started designing our new house...) and at the time, the darling of the vaping world was the new Sony NC1 which was promising 3Ah and 10C peak discharge rates, and from the reports I read at the time I believe it was actually achieving about ~2.65Ah at 5C which is bloody impressive!

    The pack I was considering for my build (which was going to be into a Busa, a Blackbird, or an FJR as I'm in complete agreement on the large chassis design platform) was going to be either 144V on the latest curtis controller with the AC23; or 96V on the AC20 as I was a little concerned about the thermal limits of the motor at a steady 120km/h (I have a whole other spreadsheet somewhere on gearing calcs related to that). In any case, 1130 of those cells was giving me 11.3kWh (with 10% derating) with a pack weight of 51kg ex-fabrications and a battery volume of 18.7litres, but that assumes no airspace between cells so I'd add a half to that again to allow room for fitment and circulation, leading to ~28L, so yes, it'll definitely fit into a 'busa chassis - the fuel tank alone on them is 21L - not that you can use all of that space for batteries, but it gives a good idea of the amount of space that's in there to begin with.

    Incidentally that configuration was 40s28p so no cell was seeing more than 6C even at peak 500A load; it also had peak voltage of 166V hot off the charge assuming 4.1V/cell terminal voltage.

    The downside was that those cells were running at $3.8ea giving a pack price of ~$4300 ex-shipping and duty - glad to say though that that situation is improving every day these times. You're right though, the battery should be the very last thing that you buy!

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