Power in Flux
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Thread: Harley "on target to launch its first electric motorcycle within 18 months"

              
   
   
  1. #21
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    um, well... Not much of anything you bring up is an easy question or answer as far as intellectual property goes. Generally, IP refers to a creation based on such an idea.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

    Speaking as one who studies semantics and Philosophy, yes, copying is in fact creating - you're creating a copy.

    I could go on... but even after all the IP laws, if you put it out there and someone steals it, it becomes very hard to prove a case. Most of the process of filing a patent, even a provisional one, involves documentation of the timeline of the creation and development of the final patentable idea or process.

    There's the additional issue of "derivatives" - that is, influence in a design process from other creators' work. There it gets REALLY sketchy. (read: expenseroo lawyers).

    All that said, did I miss something? Where did we bring up copying?
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

  2. #22
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    oh ya that was a little off the topic path. It wouldn't really be stealing or copying if you were in an arranged agreement, contract, or business partnership.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    lol OK - just wondering what I missed. This happens to be something I've dealt with for most of my career, as a photographer and writer, but also I just learned a lot about both design patents and process patents.

    A process patent, for example, can take several distinct and patented things, put them together and you have a unique process, which, if it actually works, solves a problem, and is a unique combination of the component parts, is patentable. When you think about it, any invention does essentially the same thing - when you patent a thingamabobber, you're using screws which are patented, to put it together, right?

    A full patent filing costs a few thousand bucks, and I swear a lot of companies just mine them - they take patented stuff, remake it, patent that, and sit back and hope that someone wants to buy it (similar to the early days of registering web domain names). And just, by the way, because something has a patent, it doesn't mean it can't be challenged. Some companies will develop a patentable product that is already patented, challenge it and nullify the original patent if, for example, the product was never actually made.

    You can do what's called a "Provisional Patent" for a couple of hundred, with sufficient proof of the development and value of the work, which is basically what you see when you read "Patent Pending". It's a way to cover your butt while you're waiting for your stuff to make actual money.

    I used to get asked a lot at shows if I was going to patent my motorcycle. The fact is, there's nothing about it that's patentable. I could copyright the design, I guess, but that wouldn't have much teeth... you'd just have to change a little detail and you could say it's derivative. When Harley (back to the OP) released the LiveWire they were all about the "unique designed sound" which of course was BS. THAT, in my opinion, was simply Legal building a case for patenting the sound, just as they did with the IC motors.

    YES. Another boring day at work. This time I didn't even shut the screen down when my boss walked through...
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 30 August 2018 at 1023.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    (colorful war stories about Bad Behavior and Intellectual Property theft, along with specious advice from legal professionals and trends in IP legal negotiations deleted at the behest of my, well, uh, attorney)

    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 31 August 2018 at 1255.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

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  7. #25
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    The attached photo is said to be the production version of the new Harley Davidson LiveWire electric motorcycle. No word on its cost, though.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Richard - Current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield 500, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

  8. #26
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    So is that the tech that they "borrowed" from Alta??
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

  9. #27
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    So is that the tech that they "borrowed" from Alta??
    This got me to thinkin'.

    The LiveWire drivetrain was developed by Mission. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Motors)

    A number of the people at Mission went over to Alta when Mission folded. From my book:

    "(Martin) Eberhard went on to work with Mission Motors in an advisory role;
    “…I am only an adviser to the company and a friend of Forrest’s (North). I am not
    allowed by Domestic Management to ride a motorcycle, so it would make no sense
    for me to work on developing one” and BRD (now named Alta), joining the
    board in 2013."

    "A quick search of LinkedIn yields several notable names,
    including Jeremy Cleland, ex of Ducati, Product Manger at Mission, Senior
    Manager of Accessories and Apparel at Tesla, back to work on the Mission
    Motorcycles effort, and now Director of Sales at Alta Motors;"

    So yeah, Harley had Mission do the drivetrain, then Mission goes away, and some of the talent (a lot of it at Mission from Tesla originally) moves over to Alta, Harley goes and "buys" Alta.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

  10. #28
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Man this is starting to make sense!!
    So, who has Harley retained to feel confident enough to part ways with Alta??
    Unless HD now has all the knowledge (Intellectual Property) that Alta has, Did they hire anyone from Alta?
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

  11. #29
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Right? At the risk of sounding like I'm pitching the book, (well, I am, but...) that was kind of the fascinating thing about putting it together. Honestly, there aren't but a few people on the front lines, and they all kind of interbreed. Interbred. Interbreeded?

    I got through putting most of it together and then a friend said, hey, have you talked to Ely Schless? That single guy, remarkably, could well be called the "Father of Electric Motorcycles", and all because of a motorcycle-grade mountain bike fork. I probably have 150 emails from Ely. Yet - very few people seem to know who he is. (I had to rewrite several key sections... lol)
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 31 August 2018 at 1303.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

  12. #30
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Jon Bekefy.
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonbekefy/

    Past:
    Alta Motors
    Total Duration 1 yr 8 mos
    Title Director of Marketing
    Dates Employed Mar 2016 – Oct 2017 Employment Duration 1 yr 8 mos

    Director of Marketing
    Company Name Mission Motorcycles, Inc
    Dates Employed May 2013 – Mar 2015 Employment Duration 1 yr 11 mos
    Location San Francisco Bay Area


    Current, as of last month:
    EV Business Planning Manager
    Company Name Harley-Davidson Motor Company
    Dates Employed Aug 2018 – Present Employment Duration 1 mo
    Location Milwaukee, Wisconsin

    I had several conversations with Jon when he was with Mission, when we were lining up an interview with Mark Seeger (Mission, later on), and when he was with Alta.
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 31 August 2018 at 1324.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
    www.powerinflux.com

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