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Thread: Building a track bike on a KTM duke 390 rolling chassis.

              
   
   
  1. #1
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    Building a track bike on a KTM duke 390 rolling chassis.

    Hi guys, as the title says, I am building a track only bike, using a KTM duke 390 frame and various other duke/RC 390 parts. My goal is to have a top speed of approximately 100 mph and a range of 15-20miles on a charge. I recently found out that the company who manufactures the Agni range of motors is based in India and have contacted them with my requirement. The battery pack will be 96V, but I have no idea what kind of AH I will need to achieve my goal.

    I'm based in India, so it would be highly advantageous if I could source the most expensive bits locally, as we are charged huge amounts on duty and taxes. This is basically a hobby project, but if successful, could lead into a business as well. Our company, an auto ancillary, is currently dabbling into low cost EV manufacturing right now, just to test the waters.

    Our first product will baically be an electric tuk-tuk, which is popular in our country right now.
    deluxe-jangid-e-rickshaw-500x500.jpg

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    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    An e-rickshaw would be the perfect vehicle to use hub motors, and with all that space under the floor board for batteries! You could even make the rickshaws modular to link them together and have a "kamala" ...
    Good luck with your hobby! Is there much of a salvage industry there to purchase used EV batteries? The batteries are the most expensive and most important part of the project.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    An e-rickshaw would be the perfect vehicle to use hub motors, and with all that space under the floor board for batteries! You could even make the rickshaws modular to link them together and have a "kamala" ...
    Good luck with your hobby! Is there much of a salvage industry there to purchase used EV batteries? The batteries are the most expensive and most important part of the project.
    Hi Stevo, thank you for your reply. We are actually using an axle mounted motor for the electric rickshaw, but we have seen a pretty innovative design with two hub mounted motors in the back. The think about linking the rickshaws together is that they have to be sold as individual rickshaws. Our current product is very generic, something like the one below, but once we get this rolling, the next one will definitely be more ambitious.
    e-rickshaw-500x500.jpg

    For the motorcycle, I'm thinking of using an Agni 119r motor, single or dual, not decided yet. The main reason for this is that it's manufactured locally. I'm just not sure if a single motor will give me my, rather ambitious, 100mph top speed. Plan is to keep the weight below 200kgs, mainly by keeping the battery pack as small as possible.

    For the batteries I'm going to source a ton of used laptop batteries and salvage the cells from there. It will be time consuming, but will definitely save me some money. Once I come to the bigger spends, I'll see if I can get some sponsors. Mahindra & Mahindra is one of our customers, so I'll see if they will be of any help in sourcing cheap parts or even making a few donations...

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    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Good luck with the sponsorships! I did the same thing when I first started this hobby. I contacted several companies and one named Positec, who manufactures and imports the WORX line of electric lawn mowers and weed eaters here in USA, came through!! They sent me free of charge several batteries and chargers and odd and ends switches. It was generous of them and not too cheap to ship. The batteries didn't suffice in the end, but I still keep their logo on my bike to thank them for their kindness and support! This was way back around 2010. Thunderstruck EV in Sebastopol, CA have been very helpful also, so I support them with logos on my bike as well. Another company called CK Worldwide, who manufactures and sells Welding equipment, helped me out quite a bit and provided me with some free TIG equipment. Sometimes you will be truly amazed by what happens when you reach out for help.
    Last edited by Stevo; 15 July 2018 at 1036.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

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    Figured I'd share my discussion with a very helpful redditor as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by psych0hans
    Feedback request for Agni 119R. Can it reliably propel a <200kg track motorcycle up to 100mph?

    72v Kelly controller will be used with it. The other alternative is a dual motor setup with a 144v kelly controller, but I think 144v will be way overkill for a motorcycle, also it will make the battery pack too bulky and expensive. Mainly expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jew-iiish
    What tire size and gearing are you running? What v and ah batteries were you thinking? Are you fully faired? What’s the exact weight? You’d probably be able to hit it in a quick burst with the 30 kW peak power, but I doubt you could sustain it. 60-75 mph sustained is very doable with these motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by psych0hans
    Hi, no idea about the gearing, but the tire size will be 110/70 17 front and 140/70 17 rear.

    Battery pack should be 96v, not sure about the AH yet. What I do know is, the range only needs to be about 20miles max.

    The base is a KTM duke 390 chassis, but it will be fully faired.

    No idea about the weight yet.

    Thank you for your reply

    Quote Originally Posted by jew-iiish
    140/70-17 is 77.65 inch circumference. 95-R can do 71 RPM/V. At 96v, you'll get to the max RPM, 6,000 given the correct motor controller and not overly fighting aero/rolling resistance. So at 6,000 rpm, you'd need a 4.4:1 gearing on the motorcycle to hit 100 mph. That's probably going to be a little too low of gearing on the bike for anything but a long straight away, but it might work.

    As a bonus: the KTM 390 duke weighs 155 kg. So let's say your bike weighs about the same and you weigh 70 kg, giving you a total weight of 225 kg. This means in order to go 100 kph for 1 hour with a 96 v battery, you would need at least 82 Ah. That's an 8 kWh battery. I also confirmed that you'd need the entirety of the 30 kW from the motor at peak to hit 100 mph, and the number I got was 99 mph. This is with rolling resistance 0.13, aero coef 0.9, and frontal area 0.5m^2.

    Note: You'll need a higher voltage controller than 72v to hit those numbers, since this requires max RPM. 72v is 5,100 rpm, so you'd need to run 3.75:1 gearing for the same numbers, which is even harder on the motor. You'll need 110 Ah for the hour at 100 kph.

    Edit: You'll get about 128 kph continuous with this motor (16 KW continuous) at the numbers I guessed.

    Quote Originally Posted by psych0hans
    WOW! Thank you so much for your reply. I spoke to the Agni guys and they recommend going with a dual 119R setup in series. The single 119R can handle up to 90v, so he said the biggest battery I should think of getting is an 84v setup, which at peak voltage will probably top out just above 90v.

    Since this is a hobby build, everything will depend on how much money I can get out for this. The reason I’m not too keen on a 144v setup is because of the size/weight and more importantly the cost to get the needed AH.

  9. #6
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    The Agni's are great motors, but I wouldn't even consider using one in a hub config if you're after 100MPH and race spec performance.
    Suggest doing some reading up on 'unsprung mass' and its effect on the handling characteristics of a vehicle.

    Long story short - *really* bad idea!

    If you want that sort of performance, with any respectable measure of handling, you're going to have to keep the motor inboard.
    The Agni's will do this, and that frame will fit it (high up in the rear is the usual location), but you'll need a transfer box to the bring the chain inline with the action of the swing arm.

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    Hi, thank you for your reply. Iím sorry for the confusion, but I have no intention of using any hub mounted setup for the motor. It will be mounted in the same location as the engine with the sprocket in the same place.

    The hub motor which was mentioned was for a completely different project, a low cost electric three wheeler for mass production.

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    First picture of the rolling chassis coming together.


    I desprately need to finalise the motor/controller so I can begin mockups and build the mounting brackets. Currently the Agni 119R is the preferred choice, but I'm also looking at the AC-20 as an option. The biggest advantage of the Agni is, it's locally manufactured and available. Also, it's fairly light and compact. But the dual motor setup is going to run me about $5,500 including taxes, etc... Conversion rate is approx $1 = INR 70.

  12. #9
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    LOL... looks like somebody photobombed you!!

    Nice chassis! I look forward to your progress.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

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