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Thread: First EV Build: Brushless/Lipo Ninja 500

              
   
   
  1. #11
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    Did some re-working on the battery pack, and more or less sorted out the case that's going around it. The model looks a bit messy because I didn't feel like re-modeling the cells with the tabs and crimps folded over. Because of this, I can probably pull another inch or so off the width of the case, and about half an inch or so out of the depth depending on how much clearance I want to have on the terminals. Probably have half an inch, maybe a full inch I can pull out of the height as well. I made a few assumptions about the cell spacing

    Haven't fully decided if I'm going to add another brace in the middle or not, but once I factor in the fasteners that will be used to bolt the tabs down to the plates, the entire assembly should end up right around 60lbs. Which is heavy for sure, but considering my drive unit is going to weight about 30lbs, and the controllers only weigh about 4lbs each even with the added heatsinks I think I'm doing pretty well. That's a lot of power in a reasonably compact ~100lb package. Sub-120 if you want to count the charging system and whatnot.

    2020 Aluminum T-slot extrusion frame (same stuff my 3d printer is made of), waterjetted aluminum plates to connect the cells together, and 3mm polycarbonate panels retained by 3d printed brackets.

    Complete pack assembly. Dimensions are 282mm (11.1in) wide X 214mm (8.4in) deep X 405mm (16in tall). Making it smaller didn't really make much difference in the weight because the aluminum extrusion weighs basically nothing.


    Arrangement of connecting plates. Going to 21s made things a bit interesting.


    Close up showing terminal arrangement on plates.:


    Started measuring the bottom cradle to get an idea of how much room I'll have for everything. Yeah, overestimated things a bit, but we should still be good. No room to stand the pack up vertically-ish unless I start doing weird things with the chaincase, but I should be able to fit everything if I tip the pack on its side.


    If I lay the pack on its side and turn it sideways, it fits pretty well but sticks out 2-2.5in from the sides of the frame. I'm thinking that's gonna be the way to go actually, since the fairings sit a bit outside the frame already, and worst case I should just be able to widen the bodywork slightly.


    How far it sticks out:


    There's actually a ton of room still, as long as you aren't trying to fit gigantic blocks of lipo cells in the frame.
    Last edited by Phate; 10 July 2018 at 1357.

  2. #12
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    Looking good - have you incorporated compression plates into that pack? Those pouch cells need some help in that regard if you're to avoid premature failure on account of delamination.
    An appropriately stiff, pouch sized, flat metal plate on either end will suffice - just enough to prevent their attempts at swelling from doing any harm.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Dense foam rubber squeezed into the gap space will suffice too. I was going to design a pressure plate using a modified mountain bike inner tube. But Patrick told me that the Kokam engineer told him in a discussion to use the dense foam under slight pressure would be enough.

    And rearranging your batt pack sideways should lower your cog nicely.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    Looking good - have you incorporated compression plates into that pack? Those pouch cells need some help in that regard if you're to avoid premature failure on account of delamination.
    An appropriately stiff, pouch sized, flat metal plate on either end will suffice - just enough to prevent their attempts at swelling from doing any harm.
    The current plan is to just use polycarbonate sheet for the side panels of the battery case, but the crossbar was added to provide something solid for the cells to push against. As-designed, there's not really a ton of pressure there, but I could pretty easily shim that a bit more to add some tension, or just replace the polycarb on the ends with some aluminum plate to spread the forces out better. I'm already getting a bunch of the bus plates cut, so I might as well add some end plates to the mix as well. Between the bus plates and clamping force, I could probably do away with the foam-style double sided tape in favor of the thin stuff. That would actually take about 22mm off the height of the modeled battery pack.

    So the stack will be compressed together (along the laminations), but the cells will still have a fair bit of lateral room to expand the crimped sections if they try to puff.
    Last edited by Phate; 11 July 2018 at 0925.

  5. #15
    Senior Member T Rush's Avatar
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    I always liked the look of the EX500/500R 1994~2009 fairings ....I've got 1999; but note that the other photo you show of the full fairing bike is the 1989~1993 first gen, not aftermarket fairings.....for the second gen bikes like ours, I don't think there ever was a full side fairing offered, but there is a lower fairing(is yours missing? or do you still have it and it is just removed for the photo)....the important fairing to have in good shape is the top front(windshield and headlight) as those can be hard to find and expensive
    ...adding the lower fairing will look good on your bike arrangement, and might leave room for your sideways battery pack to stick out slightly

    ....and I'll just quote this that I posted in another thread about these bikes
    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    ...

    one of the most important things you have to do with these motorcycles is to upgrade the front suspension especially if you add any more weight to the bike and/or you weigh more than 120lbs yourself....you have to change the springs in the fork tubes to something stiffer!

    I think my 1999 Ninja only has 7000miles on it, and was in really great shape when I got it, but the front end was just way too soft stock...even for my weight of 165lbs...and what happens is that under hard braking the front will drop and bottom out, when that happens you have no ride left and the back end comes up so you crash.....I watched it happen on my bike when my ~200lbs stepson was riding it(before I redid the spring rates) and 'learning'...he was just going for one more lap, and decided to make it a real good one by going as fast as he could, while looking to see if I was watching him...then all of a sudden the corner was coming up fast, so he got on the brakes super hard, bottoming out the front and lost the rear; dumped it hard....luckily he wasnt hurt too bad(mostly landed on his face, but I'd of course made him wear a full helmet) he did mess up his hand pretty bad, ripping tendons in his 'pinky' finger and totally dislocating it

    I've seen a few people on this forum building their first motorcycles and getting their licence endorsement to start riding(don't know if you are a well seasoned rider or not...but you did ask if you can have reverse on a motorcycle, so?) and I just hope that people do spend the time to properly set up the 'sag', spring rates, and damping(esp if they are changing the weight of a bike!) and learn how to ride!
    ...at least watch: A Twist of the Wrist [turn volume down]
    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    yeah, my buddy also told me to just use heavier weight fork oil...otherwise you can buy the 'emulators' for different valving in the fork tubes for (adjustable?) damping

    ...

    I was over at my shop and looked at my springs and other parts for my EX500
    the fork springs I got are "90kg"(those would have been about right for my kid, but might be too much for me)
    turns out the rear mono shock I got for it is from a next gen 2012 Ninja 250
    ...I also had to get a new/used front sub frame, headlight, handle bar set(which came with lift blocks, helps the riding position to save your back) brake/clutch leavers, bar ends, mirrors, new LED front n rear turn signals w/black smoked lenses(they are only 2wire, so no driving lights only flashers), dark black smoked windshield with flipped up lip(cuts down on wind to the head), frame saver(it thru bolts at the front motor mount, so I dont think you could fit one like that with your battery stack), also got some beefy pegs for passenger foot rests(as these bikes land on those when they get dropped)....I'll just post photos I took, see if it gives you any more ideas


    Attachment 7554 Attachment 7555 Attachment 7556 Attachment 7557 Attachment 7558


    that throttle arrangement you posted about was what I am wanting to do(but with two, and have the second one on the clutch cable for regen) ...so do post what you think about that product from eastgem, seems purpose built for the job and similar to what is used on the Sur-Ron electric motorcycle

    I also considered those same battery pouch cells, and of course smaller dual motors and a jackshaft...so I will be sure to follow your progress
    Last edited by T Rush; 11 July 2018 at 2026.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    I always liked the look of the EX500/500R 1994~2009 fairings ....I've got 1999; but note that the other photo you show of the full fairing bike is the 1989~1993 first gen, not aftermarket fairings.....for the second gen bikes like ours, I don't think there ever was a full side fairing offered, but there is a lower fairing(is yours missing? or do you still have it and it is just removed for the photo)....the important fairing to have in good shape is the top front(windshield and headlight) as those can be hard to find and expensive
    ...adding the lower fairing will look good on your bike arrangement, and might leave room for your sideways battery pack to stick out slightly
    I only have what's in the photo, so just the stock top fairing. I was just gonna go aftermarket with something like what airtech offers. With a bit of tweaking it should cover the huge bulky battery pretty well. I really like the looks of the older Kawasaki 250 and 500.

    ....and I'll just quote this that I posted in another thread about these bikes
    Yeah, i was already anticipating some suspension work/refreshing. I'm north of 220lbs, and the bike has 23K on it, so its definitely too soft. That's less of a priority until it moves under it's own power. Once i can say that it is in fact an electric motorcycle, i can go through replacing anything janky.

    that throttle arrangement you posted about was what I am wanting to do(but with two, and have the second one on the clutch cable for regen) ...so do post what you think about that product from eastgem, seems purpose built for the job and similar to what is used on the Sur-Ron electric motorcycle

    I also considered those same battery pouch cells, and of course smaller dual motors and a jackshaft...so I will be sure to follow your progress
    I know the hacked up throttle body will work great and last until the end of time, but the eastgem unit is only like $25 shipped so i figured i might as well check it out. If it's not totally chintzy I'll run it and grab a second one for regen, bit if it sucks I'll grab some D16 throttles and a dremel, lol.

  7. #17
    Senior Member T Rush's Avatar
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    sadly, there aren't a lot of options for the rear spring
    https://www.ex-500.com/15-suspension...ng-budget.html
    ...the later gen coil over I got I guess isn't much of an upgrade....but I thought I'd try it since I was doing the front

    I always liked riding my 500 Ninja, was just fun to push it hard vs my other bikes(GSXR, Blackbird, Motard, BMW, Cruiser, Cafe)

    what are you going to do with the gas tank?
    (since it will be empty, but you still have to keep it for looks and to wrap your knees around)

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Rush View Post
    sadly, there aren't a lot of options for the rear spring
    https://www.ex-500.com/15-suspension...ng-budget.html
    ...the later gen coil over I got I guess isn't much of an upgrade....but I thought I'd try it since I was doing the front

    I always liked riding my 500 Ninja, was just fun to push it hard vs my other bikes(GSXR, Blackbird, Motard, BMW, Cruiser, Cafe)

    what are you going to do with the gas tank?
    (since it will be empty, but you still have to keep it for looks and to wrap your knees around)
    My plan is to gut everything that isn't visible and used to mount the tank to the bike. As a bonus this will make it easier to fix the dent from when the bike fell over at some point.

    I figure I can stash lighter weight and less waterproof components up there, or just make a storage compartment.

  9. #19
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    Some updates:

    Using the android app and bluetooth solved the communication issues I was having with the controller, and I've reassembled the potentially blown up controller. If the bluetooth comms work, then I probably don't need to buy yet another controller, so that's a good thing.

    I suspect a broken wire in the hall sensor harness, and the hall wiring is an absolute mystery to the point I can't fully trust that red and black are hall power and ground, but either way I can't get the Kelly controller to play nice with the motor until I pull the can off to either verify/repair the wiring to the hall board, or replace the halls.

    I ordered a pack of Honeywell SS411A hall sensors, which I'll be installing in between the slots of the motor. I should have a few extras, which I'd like mount externally to play around with the hall timing. The KLS-S controllers are probably too "smart" for such shenanigans, and would most likely just throw errors as soon as you think about hall advance, but I still want to find out. I'd absolutely love to get some kind of variable hall advance implemented.

    In other news:
    My timeline for completion has been pushed back a bit. My Subaru decided to lunch the turbocharger, which is normally not a big deal (I actually already had a replacement turbo on a shelf in the garage that was a planned upgrade), but when the turbo let go it sent metal shavings into the oil pan, so instead of a few hundred dollars and an afternoon (replace the turbo and oil line, drop the oil pan, change oil filter and cooler), it needs a shortblock.

    I got my accord back on the road, so I have a car to daily drive, but the bike has definitely become a winter project. Basically expect disassembly of the bike and bench testing of components, but not much actual "bolt stuff into the bike" happening for a bit.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    That's unfortunate news. What year and model Subaru? I've read lots of similar things happening to other subarus on the wrx forums.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: WORX.VOR.v3.2

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