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Thread: Thinking out loud - A hybrid hack

              
   
   
  1. #1
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    Thinking out loud - A hybrid hack

    Though we'll be living in Canada, my wife is Filipino and we have a place in Palawan, Philippines.
    I own a Yamaha RS110f which used to carry all three of us (when my kid was little), but now we will need a sidecar to legally move all three of us arojnd the city.
    The bike is actually designed and geared to be a tractor for a trike/sidecar rig. It won't be fast but it's practical. Currently, it tops out at 70kmh and with a sidecar it should do 40-50, which is fine for around town.
    We have a second property on a dirt road, with a hill and I don't know if my little 110cc will be able to get sidecar up there on its own. So, I was thinking hybrid system to help it out.

    Originally, I thought a hub motor on the sidecar would do it, but would the different torques be too much if an issue?

    My next thought was creating a 2 wheel drive like on some Ural rigs. Chain drive is on the left side of the bike wheel. A electric motor could be connected to both wheels via drive shafts.

    Third option would be dual hub motors with chain drive still on the bike wheel.

    Batteries/controller in the side car. ICE on the twist throttle and a thumb throttle for electric, or vice versa for regen.

    Use the elmoto for short distances and up the hill. Use ICE when needed. Maybe both if one is not enough.

    As you probably can tell, I've no practical EV experience at this point. These are just ideas floating in my head.

    I was thinking a 48v system. Would any of these options work?

    What do y'all think?





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    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    I don't think it will turn easily if you put a motor on the sidehack wheel, but a 2 wheel drive on the main bike wheels might be interesting. You also don't want to put a brake on the side wheel.

    Depending on what side of the bike the sidehack is on, is how you turn the rig, by accelerating or decelerating. In other words, if the sidecar is on the Rt hand side, when you give it gas, the bike wants to turn right, but if you hit your brakes or decelerate, the bike wants to turn left. The opposite if the sidecar is on the left hand side.
    Last edited by Stevo; 13 July 2018 at 1017.
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    I have to check on the Ural rig. Both the bike's rear wheel and the sidecar wheel have power. I'm not sure how that affects turning it. Maybe there is slip in the differential?



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    https://youtu.be/Wd4Yav0_U5w

    The Ural is a real pig under 2wd, but it's not designed to be engaged all the time, just when needed.

    Can hub motors easily freewheel?

    If so, then I could potentially set up the 2 hub system to run the 2nd hub only when needed.


    Note: a sidecar for the Philippines would be on the right.



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    Ural recommends only using two-wheel drive on their hacks when riding on a loose surface such as dirt or gravel. Trying to use that drive system on pavement results in a vehicle that is almost impossible to turn. The Ural could really use a differential, but that would raise its price noticeably, give one more area of potential failure, something else to maintain and isn't really necessary on paved roads under most conditions.
    Richard - Current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield 500, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

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    That's what I need. I need stability and a torque boost for my steep dirt road.

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    Hmmm.. in theory I could see this working with the Hub motor on the sidecar wheel alright; but ideally (and perhaps necessarily) the motor itself would have to be an induction or doubly fed machine rather than PM. Reason being that the PM machines will still generate potentially quite a lot of voltage when freewheeling, and could cog; where as the induction machine can freewheel harmlessly.

    The theory follows that you spec this "assist motor" to:
    A - motor only, no regen
    B - set cut in from standing
    C - have a fairly low cut out speed
    D - be readily overpowered by the main drive wheel so that low speed maneuvers don't suffer from 'solid rear axle' behaviours.

    You'll need to have and RPM sensor on the main wheel and control the assist wheel to match rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post

    You'll need to have and RPM sensor on the main wheel and control the assist wheel to match rotation.
    How complicated is this? I like the idea of a lowish speed motor as an assist. I don't know much about induction engines. Mostly what I read about is PM engines. Will have to research.

    On the other hand, a hybrid with range extending ice may be possible? If I were to use the pm as primary drive motor while free wheeling the ICE (not sure I can fo that), drain battery, then run off ICE and while freewheel regen charge batteries.

    What did you mean by 'cog'?

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    Empulse R #24 frodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    Hmmm.. in theory I could see this working with the Hub motor on the sidecar wheel alright; but ideally (and perhaps necessarily) the motor itself would have to be an induction or doubly fed machine rather than PM. Reason being that the PM machines will still generate potentially quite a lot of voltage when freewheeling, and could cog; where as the induction machine can freewheel harmlessly.

    The theory follows that you spec this "assist motor" to:
    A - motor only, no regen
    B - set cut in from standing
    C - have a fairly low cut out speed
    D - be readily overpowered by the main drive wheel so that low speed maneuvers don't suffer from 'solid rear axle' behaviours.

    You'll need to have and RPM sensor on the main wheel and control the assist wheel to match rotation.
    Not necessarily true. If the controller is in torque mode, it shouldn't matter. You'd just need to mechanically tie in another throttle so you can control the motor controller. If you push the accelerator, both engine and Controller will increase speed. The controller will not care about RPM, only the torque commanded to it. The more you push, the more torque it puts out. The less you push, the less torque.
    Travis

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    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    You guys are missin' the point... if you drive the side wheel, the rig will want to go straight. If you wire in some kind of microswitch to the tripleclamps that will cut the side wheel power off when a turn is initiated, that might work. Otherwise, the rig will be difficult if not impossible to turn. That's my experience racing mx sidehacks talkin. Just sayin
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