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Thread: 1980 Kawasaki 440 LTD 8kW conversion-Workin' toward the conclusion

              
   
   

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    1980 Kawasaki 440 LTD 8kW conversion-Workin' toward the conclusion

    When I got my El Moto out this spring, she was totally dead.

    Not just dead, "really" totally dead.

    Nothing lit up, buzzed, clicked or anything.
    ...so, I grabbed the MM

    The 48V battery pack showed 6.2V

    Then, I checked them individually
    ...battery #1 (@ the positive output connection) showed 1.5V
    ...#2 showed 3.3V
    ...#3 showed 5.4V
    ...#4 (@ the negative out put connection) showed -3.9V
    (seriously, it showed a minus)
    (negative voltage, that's a new one on me)

    So, yup
    ...I think I killed 'em

    I had the main cut-off, turned off while it was in storage for the winter
    ...but, it seems that I didn't wire the DC to DC inverter to the cut-off switch
    ...I wired it straight to the battery pack
    ...it must have been drawin' a small amount of power all winter long

    So, I'm guessin' (Naw, I'm pretty sure)
    ...that was a fatal (for the battery pack anyways) mistake

    Well, can't get shook about it
    ...grandma always said "things happen for a reason"

    * Note to self:
    Don't do that again

    Learning as I go


    Moving on, I figured maybe this is a good opportunity to up grade to Lithium.
    I have been doin' lots of research on 'em & so far, I'm likin' the Chevy Volt lithium battery packs
    A 2Kwh section is
    ...45V (nominal) so, I would only need (1)
    ...~47AH (2Kwh)
    …only weighs ~45 lbs.
    …& they seem to be plentiful in the ~$300.00 range

    According to my research, going from a 48V 35AH "Lead" battery pack to a 45V 47AH "lithium Ion" battery pack

    I should have "roughly" double the "available" power (actual usable battery capacity)
    ...at about half of the weight
    ...& it should recharge in "roughly" 1/2 of the time that the lead battery pack took

    But, I have been reluctant to "pull the trigger"
    ...because there's a lot of "Very Important Details" to them
    ...like monitoring the balance, discharge & recharge rates & even worrying about the levels (per cell) of discharge & recharge

    That's why I did all of the research & work on them "stupid" Batt-Bridge's


    Well, I did it
    I am the proud owner of a 2kWh section of a Chevrolet Volt lithium Ion battery
    ...45V 47AH ($400.00 delivered)
    ...as opposed to (~$300.00) for (4) 12V 35 AH SLA batteries

    It's only ~9 1/2" wide x 9 1/2" deep x 10 1/2" tall
    ...as opposed to the ~15" wide x 10" deep x 7" tall of the SLA batteries
    ...so, it should fit nicely on the bike

    It only weighs ~45 lbs.
    ...as opposed to the ~80 lbs. that the SLA batteries weighed
    ...so, the bike should handle better & get better "mileage"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePoG8xfocEY

    When I sat the battery pack on the bike, it fits in & looks great & I can't even see it while sitting on the bike
    For mounting, I used a couple pieces of 1/2" x 1'2" angle steel to mount the battery pack to the bike

    Now, for some of the stuff I did wrong.
    First, I removed the on/off switch, (for the speed controller) that I previously mounted under the seat & ran the wires up to a relay switch (under the "tank") that's controlled by the motorcycles ignition switch

    Then, I removed
    ...the "extra" battery cables, connecting the "main" power cut-off switch
    ...the cut-off switch (itself)
    …& the 500A "main" power fuse

    I'm gonna try a 150A circuit breaker, as a test
    ...as the "main" power cut-off switch
    …& as the "main" power fuse too

    It should be the "weakest link" so, if it's "incompatible", I "think" it should continuously "trip" the breaker
    ...but, (hopefully) not harm the system


    Next we needed to find a place to mount the circuit breaker, so it's easily accessible while riding
    ...& we need to mount a shunt ...somewhere, for the Amp/Volt meter (to help keep an "eye" on what's happening inside of this thing)

    As for mounting the Circuit breaker & the shunt, nothing can really be mounted "to" or "on" the battery cover because there is not much room (~1/2")
    ...& there are open terminals (cell/pouch welds)

    Then, I thought, "hey" what about...them "new" plastic drill boxes @ Harbor Freight?

    Yeah, the red ones
    ...they'll even match the bike

    Hmmmmm, that just might work
    ...probably, have to go on the sides, not much room on top

    I think these drill boxes (~2" thick x ~4" tall x ~6" wide) will work, I'ma gonna give 'em a try anyways

    I can mount the circuit breaker, in (1) box
    ...& the shunt (a part of the meter circuit) in the other

    If I mount (1) box on each side they'll look, kinda like, (mini) saddle bags

    For mounting, first, I tried a big (36") Zip Tie, that went all of the way around the battery, thru each box & back to itself
    ...it kept them on but, they still "moved around" a bit

    I don't want to just "glue them on"
    ...how about some "Industrial Velcro" (the extra heavy duty kind)

    This way, I can "glue them in place" & they'll still removable (if ever necessary)

    So, I used both
    ...the Velcro locks them in place (no movin' around)
    …& the Zip Tie is a "safety strap" (just in case)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ2dwJVrsDM


    To hook 'er up

    The power starts @ the battery packs positive (+) terminal, so I attached a piece of 4g. cable to the battery's positive terminal via 1/4" x 4g. lug & 10mm nut
    …& connected the other end to the in "BATT" side of the circuit breaker via another 1/4" x 4g. lug & a 7/16" nut

    Then, the power comes out of the "AUX" side of the circuit breaker thru another piece of 4g. cable via 1/4" lug x 4g. lug & a 7/16" nut & then connects to the contactor with a 3/8" x 4g. lug & a 17mm nut & finally, the power comes out of the contactor via a 3/8" x 4g. lug & a 17mm nut & then connects to the B+ "bar" on the speed controller, using another 1/4" x 4g. lug & a 10mm nut-n-bolt

    Now, to complete the circuit the negative (-) connects to the speed controllers B- "bar" (1/4" x 4g. lug) thru a piece of 4g. cable
    …& then connects to the P- side of the "shunt" (3/8" x 4g. lug)(mounted in the other "saddle bag" & finally, another piece of cable connects the B- side of the shunt (3/8" x 4g.) to the negative terminal on the battery pack using a 10mm nut

    * tip on cuttin' battery cables
    ...a cut-off tool can/will slice thru it like butter without smashing/deforming the end of the cable
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Just a tip for noobs. See the little icon up in the toolbar that looks like a piece of film, next to the Picture icon?

    Screen shot 2018-09-11 at 5.31.39 AM.png

    If you click that you can add your YouTube movies directly to the page, like this:



    That way, people don't have to navigate to your YouTube page to see the clips, and they can continue to read your thread where they left off. Unless, of course, you want to re-direct them to the YouTube page for clicks. Makes the forum a lot more readable (not sure if you care about that).

    As far as cutting cables goes (just caught my eye, because it's at the end), this thing cuts cables like buttah: https://amzn.to/2QjqAn7 Snip snip, no crushed wires, clean cut.

    51EGRPgUHQL._SL1219_.jpg

    I've used it for everything right up to 4/0.

    Also, (adding this here so as to cause minimal disturbance to "your" thread), I see you haven't posted to Endless Sphere, at least near as I can tell. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/ You ought to consider it, they're doing all sorts of interesting EVs - not just cars or motocycles. One caveat, though, you're going to get a lot of advice there, lots of very experienced people, so you'll have to toughen up a little. You'll get loads of clicks on your YouTube channel there.
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 11 September 2018 at 0328.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
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    Before I put this battery pack to use, I want/need to know what's goin on "inside", so we need some kind of monitors or meters
    There are many types of monitors available but, I wanted to "try" to build a lower cost a DIY monitor/meter.

    Here is what I came up with, I call it a Tri-Quad. It costs less than $25.00 & simply uses an Amp/Volt meter (~$15.00 delivered) to monitor the power consumption & battery pack capacity (Amp: displays the amperage drawn by the motor & Voltage: displays the "total" battery pack voltage)
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-300V-500...QAAMXQ3kNTfSBB
    …& (2) individual Volt meters (~$3.00 ea. delivered) is to monitor the balance of the battery pack (One will display the voltage reading of 1/2 of the battery pack & the other will display the voltage reading in the other 1/2)
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-DC-5-1...item1c6ebfbd5f

    As long as they both show the same reading, the battery is "in balance" or "balanced"

    I kinda wanted the Amp/Volt meter on top (to show total capacity)
    …& the (2) 1/2 pack meters next to each other (to show the voltage of the left 1/2 & the right 1/2)
    ...but, they are too wide side by side so I stacked 'em up in a row

    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Functional Artist; 11 September 2018 at 0957.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
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    Links have been repaired. They must have been outdated.


    Super bummed! I think, I burned out balance monitor meter #2

    I got the Tri-Quad mounted on the bike & everything connected. Then, double checked ALL connections before final hook up (plugging the BMS plug in to the battery) & everything looked good.

    So, I plugged 'er in & everything still looks good.

    Went to turn the key on to "power up" the system & turn the meters on & noticed Balance Monitor Meter #1 is kinda flickering
    (how can it do that? they should be off) Weird/NOT GOOD

    Then, I turned the key on & most everything worked, as designed
    ...the Amp/Volt meter "lit up" & displayed 45.9V
    ...the battery balance meter #1 "lit up" & displayed 22.5V
    ...but, meter #2 didn't do nuthin', nuthin', nuthin'

    I went thru everything (3) times
    ...WTF everything looks "right"

    So, (as a test) I got out (2) other Volt meters & connected them in place of the (2) meters that are in the Tri-Quad & it seems to work "as designed".


    What could of went wrong?

    While connecting the wiring harness that goes from the Tri-Quad to the battery pack, I was thinkin', the Amp/Volt meter is switched on/off thru it's 12V power wires
    ...but, the (plain) voltage meters are powered, thru the monitor wires, right from the "source"

    So, I figured we gotta add a switch, to be able to turn the meters on/off.

    Hmmm, if I added/wired a relay into the "center tap" connection
    ...by breaking that single connection, would turn both meters on/off
    (This way I could use the bikes 12V system to switch the "higher" voltage stuff on/off)


    Now, I'm thinkin' that, ...well basically, I had the (2) meters wired in series
    ...maybe with the "center tap" connection off (disconnected)
    ...instead of ~22V goin thru each meter, there was the whole "pack voltage" (~45V) goin thru them

    They should of been able to handle it
    ...the specs say DC5.0V - 120.0V (input voltage limit 132.0V)

    But, when I look at other voltage meters
    ...like this one

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-75V-300V...AAAOSwADxbYs50

    I notice, there is no decimal point (like on mine)

    They are not labeled so, (maybe) did they send me "smaller" meters?
    ...how could I tell?
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    Last edited by Functional Artist; 11 September 2018 at 1051.

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    It looks like you're combining and condensing old posts from the DIY forum. This is progress! Keep going! Keep going! Keep combining and condensing along with editing out the not useful to the reader information. I think you can get these posts to a point that they will be a pleasure for the reader to behold. Have another adult in the household(or, maybe the kids) read through them for clarity of content. Remember, good writing is an art too!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electro Flyers View Post
    It looks like you're combining and condensing old posts from the DIY forum.
    Well, sort of. He's pulling posts from posts he's made to a handful of other forums: DIY Electric Cars, DIY Electronics - for example, his last post is a straight cut and paste from DIY Go Carts: http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=38167 The post that he started this thread with was originally on both DIY Electric Car (https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum....php?p=1009786) and DIY Go Carts (http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthr...t=37062&page=6) Typically you'd want to at least link to the original post, and cross-posting verbatim from one forum to another (much less two or three) is very much frowned upon in forum-land, but you could argue he's collecting and clarifying all that into one thread here, which makes it better (I guess).

    All you have to do to find the source material is to grab chunks of the copy and paste them into the Googles. I learned that grading papers for the college classes I taught.

    So that clarifies why he's not willing to change his "style" since that would involve re-writing all that from various sources to make an actual readable thread, and the reason he's not happy about being questioned, interrupted or challenged about his designs, since they were built a few years ago and the "discussion" has already been had. In several forums I've been on it would be grounds for a spanking, but whatever, I don't really care. I'm not reading it anyway, and he shouldn't care since he's ignoring my "trolling". As I've said before, it would make a much better blog than it does a discussion thread.

    By the way, the very informative (and readable) stuff he just posted about lithium batteries was straight out of Wikipedia and Battery University, and should also have been cited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery and https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 12 September 2018 at 0707.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Dillard View Post
    Well, sort of. He's pulling posts from posts he's made to a handful of other forums: DIY Electric Cars, DIY Electronics - for example, his last post is a straight cut and paste from DIY Go Carts: http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=38167 The post that he started this thread with was originally on both DIY Electric Car (https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum....php?p=1009786) and DIY Go Carts (http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthr...t=37062&page=6) Typically you'd want to at least link to the original post, and cross-posting verbatim from one forum to another (much less two or three) is very much frowned upon in forum-land, but you could argue he's collecting and clarifying all that into one thread here, which makes it better (I guess).

    All you have to do to find the source material is to grab chunks of the copy and paste them into the Googles. I learned that grading papers for the college classes I taught.

    So that clarifies why he's not willing to change his "style" since that would involve re-writing all that from various sources to make an actual readable thread, and the reason he's not happy about being questioned, interrupted or challenged about his designs, since they were built a few years ago and the "discussion" has already been had. In several forums I've been on it would be grounds for a spanking, but whatever, I don't really care. I'm not reading it anyway, and he shouldn't care since he's ignoring my "trolling". As I've said before, it would make a much better blog than it does a discussion thread.

    By the way, the very informative (and readable) stuff he just posted about lithium batteries was straight out of Wikipedia and Battery University, and should also have been cited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery and https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
    I think we're just dealing with transition nerves here. So let's try to be supportive. Unless, FA, some patron is paying you for each word posted. In which case, I think we should get a cut for having to read all of this stuff. You can send my cut to the moderator because he has definitely been working overtime lately.

    Seriously, FA, brevity is often a sure sign of wisdom. Enough said.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electro Flyers View Post

    Seriously, FA, brevity is often a sure sign of wisdom. Enough said.
    That's why the edit button is our friend!
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
    Current builds: eVOR.v3.3
    WORX.VOR.v3.2

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    A not to much more expensive option may be to use 2x cell logs to monitor each of your 12 cells. 6 per logger. I did a similar setup with my bike before I got a more expensive balance controller.
    Here is one: https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Batte...ll+meter&psc=1
    Caveat is that they typically use power and will slowly drain cells at different rates. You can get away with bulk charging for a long time but eventually your cells may drift. You can decide to bottom balance them one at a time to a specific low voltage or top balance them to a specific high voltage. A cheap way to do this is with a variable DC load, like this: https://www.amazon.com/Constant-Curr...t+current+load
    I don't know about your bike but I hope your charger cuts off at a specific voltage so as to not overcharge your pack. I charge my Volt cells to 4.15V Max so that would be 49.8V for your 48V pack. A 48V Lead acid charger might do 55V which may damage your cells/ cause a fire.

    All in all probably cheaper to just wire in a 12s balance controller to just keep the batteries all level and not worry. https://www.ebay.com/itm/12S-30A-44-...YAAOSwC19bEXJP
    It's not a great one but better then nothing. It would be used to just keep the batteries level. Then you can just use your 3$ Volt / Amp meter to tell whole pack voltage and current draw.

    Good luck.

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