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Thread: Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system

              
   
   
  1. #31
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    Yes, I asked for the forums input but, "you" (or anyone) shouldn't get "pissy" if I (or anyone else) don't just blindly follow it.

    I am still researching & gathering information, your input is just (1) piece of the equation.


    Let me remind you'all of The Scientific Method.

    The scientific method is an empirical method of knowledge acquisition which has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, which includes rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions about how the world works influence how one interprets a percept. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as opposed to a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.

    Though there are diverse models for the scientific method available, in general there is a continuous process that includes observations about the natural world. People are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear, and they often develop ideas or hypotheses about why things are the way they are. The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways. The most conclusive testing of hypotheses comes from reasoning based on carefully controlled experimental data. Depending on how well additional tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported, a general theory may be developed.

    Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, they are frequently the same from one to another. The process of the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions. A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.

    The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis. Experiments can take place anywhere from a garage to CERN's Large Hadron Collider. There are difficulties in a formulaic statement of method, however. Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, it represents rather a set of general principles. Not all steps take place in every scientific inquiry (nor to the same degree), and they are not always in the same order.



    Pragmatic model (Pragmatic theory of truth)

    In 1877, Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914) characterized inquiry in general not as the pursuit of truth per se but as the struggle to move from irritating, inhibitory doubts born of surprises, disagreements, and the like, and to reach a secure belief, belief being that on which one is prepared to act. He framed scientific inquiry as part of a broader spectrum and as spurred, like inquiry generally, by actual doubt, not mere verbal or hyperbolic doubt, which he held to be fruitless.

    He outlined four methods of settling opinion, ordered from least to most successful:

    1.The method of tenacity (policy of sticking to initial belief) – which brings comforts and decisiveness but leads to trying to ignore contrary information and others' views as if truth were intrinsically private, not public. It goes against the social impulse and easily falters since one may well notice when another's opinion is as good as one's own initial opinion. Its successes can shine but tend to be transitory.

    2.The method of authority – which overcomes disagreements but sometimes brutally. Its successes can be majestic and long-lived, but it cannot operate thoroughly enough to suppress doubts indefinitely, especially when people learn of other societies present and past.

    3.The method of the a priori – which promotes conformity less brutally but fosters opinions as something like tastes, arising in conversation and comparisons of perspectives in terms of "what is agreeable to reason." Thereby it depends on fashion in paradigms and goes in circles over time. It is more intellectual and respectable but, like the first two methods, sustains accidental and capricious beliefs, destining some minds to doubt it.

    4.The scientific method – the method wherein inquiry regards itself as fallible and purposely tests itself and criticizes, corrects, and improves itself.


    Peirce held that slow, stumbling ratiocination can be dangerously inferior to instinct and traditional sentiment in practical matters, and that the scientific method is best suited to theoretical research, which in turn should not be trammeled by the other methods and practical ends; reason's "first rule" is that, in order to learn, one must desire to learn and, as a corollary, must not block the way of inquiry. The scientific method excels the others by being deliberately designed to arrive – eventually – at the most secure beliefs, upon which the most successful practices can be based. Starting from the idea that people seek not truth per se but instead to subdue irritating, inhibitory doubt, Peirce showed how, through the struggle, some can come to submit to truth for the sake of belief's integrity, seek as truth the guidance of potential practice correctly to its given goal, and wed themselves to the scientific method.

    For Peirce, rational inquiry implies presuppositions about truth and the real; to reason is to presuppose (and at least to hope), as a principle of the reasoner's self-regulation, that the real is discoverable and independent of our vagaries of opinion. In that vein he defined truth as the correspondence of a sign (in particular, a proposition) to its object and, pragmatically, not as actual consensus of some definite, finite community (such that to inquire would be to poll the experts), but instead as that final opinion which all investigators would reach sooner or later but still inevitably, if they were to push investigation far enough, even when they start from different points.[95] In tandem he defined the real as a true sign's object (be that object a possibility or quality, or an actuality or brute fact, or a necessity or norm or law), which is what it is independently of any finite community's opinion and, pragmatically, depends only on the final opinion destined in a sufficient investigation. That is a destination as far, or near, as the truth itself to you or me or the given finite community. Thus, his theory of inquiry boils down to "Do the science." Those conceptions of truth and the real involve the idea of a community both without definite limits (and thus potentially self-correcting as far as needed) and capable of definite increase of knowledge. As inference, "logic is rooted in the social principle" since it depends on a standpoint that is, in a sense, unlimited.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
    Last edited by Functional Artist; 20 November 2018 at 1947.

  2. #32
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    And... here come the Wikidumps. You know what you're doing is not science. It's like a futile effort to try to reinvent the wheel. But that's all right, you can make this a basic science project. Do this if and only it can be done if a safe manner. If you can't do this safely, don't do it. You are completely on your own if you do this. Some of us have been through this, and know how dangerous it can be.

    Keep track of the switches you're using. Type, application, ratings, model numbers, supplier, etc. Test them out in your project and let the world know how they work. I suspect you will find that, as I have and maybe others, that some will fail right away, some will last longer, and some do just fine. It seems the switches that are more massive(larger contacts, greater contact separation) will last longer and tolerate the excess arching that results from using them above their rated voltage. Speaking of arching - sometimes, not always, you can hear the arching as the switches are cycled off. It sounds like ZZZZZ. And, it seems to increase with intensity as the switch is used and ultimately fails.

    If you want to be "scientific" about this, among other steps, you'll need to keep track of the number of switching cycles completed, have a control switch cycled at the same time at the rated voltage, and be prepared to publish your information for peer review. Hey, knock yourself out. Or, you could save yourself a lot of work and rely on the manufacturer's specifications; and the people like on this forum that have experience and knowledge of switch ratings and failures.

    Speaking of failures. You know if your brake light system fails because you used a switch not rated for high DC voltage, you could be rear ended. And the accident would be your fault. A lawyer for the other people in the accident would have a field day with the information you've posted here. Other systems could fail. No regen because of switch failure? Maybe you crash into somebody because the braking distance is longer than anticipated. Key switch fails? I've had this happen on a small scooter. I could not find one (I still have not found one) rated for a 48VDC system. I bypassed the bad switch, forgot about the bypass, cranked the throttle thinking the system was off, and plowed into a group of people. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.

    DISCLAIMER: As noted before, anything you do related to the preceding paragraphs is completely on you. If it cannot be done in a safe manner, don't do it. An engineer would probably never share this kind of information with you. If something bad happened, they could lose their license and possibly be sued. I'm sharing it with you because I take pity on you. I can't figure out if you are just stubborn, stupid or both.

    Ted, he's quoting Tony Soprano AND Charles Sanders Peirce, I think it's time to get the group back together.
    Last edited by Electro Flyers; 21 November 2018 at 1120. Reason: ,

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Perfect.

    You suggest Travis isn't familiar with controllers (his credentials are well documented and known), and you're lecturing me on the Scientific Method. (I happen to have studied that shit for 4 years and continued my fascination with it, and the development of technology for about 40 years more... I have a ****ing degree. Am I suggesting that's a little better than a Google search and a WikiDump? Why yes. Yes I am.)

    Basically, what I'm seeing is you like to ask what the standard practices are, so you can end-run them with your chickenshit parts and materials, and then feel like you're smarter than everybody else. You also like to troll various forums (no less than 3, that I can find) until you get the answers you want to hear. People who point out your mistakes, you insult personally, as you've done with me time after time. Pissy? Jelly? I really regret stepping up for you and asking Mike to put you back on this forum. You contribute nothing.

    Let this thread be a cautionary tale to anyone building any sort of EV. Do it right, and do it safe. There are always going to be jackasses who think they have a better way (when you build a bike that can go over 30mph, let me know, buddy) and ignore common-sense safety.

    Don't be one of them.
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 21 November 2018 at 0422.
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  4. #34
    Empulse R #24 frodus's Avatar
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    REPOSTING what I wrote on diyelectriccar.com

    NOTE TO ALL: He has the same topic thread going on over on diyelectriccar.com and it's all eerily similar.
    Click here to view the thread


    FunctionalArtist:

    As far as I can tell, every single thread you start, you ask for advice, then get your panties in a bunch when we don't agree with it. Then you argue for pages and pages of a thread. We're just trying to point you the right direction.

    Then you go on other forums, trying the same thing, trying to get the answer you want. You did it a few months back and got banned from Elmoto, then apologized. Now you're back at it again.

    The designers of the 12V switches have already done the trial and error for you, which is why it's still rated for 12VDC and not 60VDC. What if that switch fails, do you want to touch 60VDC? How about when it fails when you're driving and you power when you need it?

    Other DIY EV Builders like yourself have also done the trial and error, and I've seen many times where someone uses a undersized switch and it stops working eventually because of pitting and arcing causing the contacts to get dirty. It will fail at some point, regardless of the current going through it. It could be milli-amps and still arc because it's 60VDC, and not 12VDC.

    You came here to ask about what to use, we tell you, you argue why you shouldn't. It's clear to me you never wanted an answer, as you'd already made up your mind.
    Last edited by frodus; 21 November 2018 at 1806.
    Travis

  5. #35
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    ElectronicsPoint


    ...gotta love those EEs. They don't **** around.
    Last edited by Ted Dillard; 22 November 2018 at 0436.
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  6. #36
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    Again, I'm sorry that I seem to be gettin' you guys so upset. I'm just doin' some research & learning "as I go".

    It'll probably piss you all off again, but I'm gonna explain things from "my point of view"

    It's called:

    research
    noun (re·​search | \ri-ˈsərch, ˈrē-ˌsərch)

    1 : careful or diligent search
    2 : studious inquiry or examination
    especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
    3 : the collecting of information about a particular subject

    research
    verb (researched; researching; researches)

    1 : to search or investigate exhaustively
    //research a problem
    2 : to do research for
    //research a book
    intransitive verb
    : to engage in research

    …&

    learn (lərn)
    VERB

    1.gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
    synonyms: acquire a knowledge of · gain an understanding of · acquire skill in , discover · find out · become aware of (something) by information or from observation.


    MY OP was:
    Questions about proper accessory components for a 60V system

    What type of switches & fuses or circuit breakers are recommended or necessary for use in a 60V system?
    What is the Rule of thumb or guidelines on the proper & safe use of fuses & circuit breakers? ...tips? ...or suggestions?

    We started out discussing fuses/circuit breakers & got a few helpful comments then, in (post#5) I posted some (I thought interesting & pertinent) info that I found on my own then, in I posted (post 8) some info I got from the electronics guys which helped establish the parameters that should be "safe" to work with. (60VDC system = 72VDC or higher rated components) & posted some links to some "properly" rated ($7.00 fuses) from one the guys on DIYelectriccars & also a link to a "properly" rated on/off switch ($10.00) that I found then, in (post 13) I asked "What could/should I use for switches for the "small" power systems?" & got a few more helpful comments then, in (post 24) I kinda pivoted the conversation & posted "I have found several switches rated for 72VDC +, but they seem way "over built" to control simple "signal" circuits & posted some more (I thought pertinent) info that I got from the electronics guys "The remaining control voltages are just that - control - and you can use any switch (such as those rated at 12V, 125V or 250V etc) as they carry minimal current."

    That's where you guys seemed to have "lost it" & started declaring your "credentials".


    * No I'm NOT looking for an end-run or troll various forums until I get the answers I want to hear.

    I am doing research & (as always) once I know the parameters I look for "proper" alternatives or substitutes.

    proper (prop·​er | \ˈprä-pər) adjective
    2.of the required type; suitable or appropriate. synonyms:
    applicable, appropriate, apt, becoming, befitting, felicitous, fit, fitted, fitting, good, happy, meet, pretty, right, suitable

  7. #37
    Senior Member Ted Dillard's Avatar
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    Just stop it.

    You have three forums who've said essentially the same thing, both in answer to your original question, and on your general behavior on each forum. Every one of your threads devolves into this sort of bullshit.

    Take a hint.
    Power in Flux: The History of Electric Motorcycles
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  8. #38
    Empulse R #24 frodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
    What could/should I use for switches for the "small" power systems?

    Like for sending "signals" (ie. brake light switch, or for turning the speed controller on & off)

    It's still high voltage (in this situation 60VDC)
    ...but, a lot lower amperage (~200mA - 1A) less then 5A, for sure.

    * I looked for 60VDC - 72VDC relays, without much luck.
    I found some nice 125VDC rated switches that I'd like to offer to purchase for you, if that works. Just need a shipping address, and number of switches. Sounds like you need one for F/R, and one for key switch on? Not sure about brakes though. Don't think you're using brake lights.
    Travis

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by frodus View Post
    I found some nice 125VDC rated switches that I'd like to offer to purchase for you, if that works. Just need a shipping address, and number of switches. Sounds like you need one for F/R, and one for key switch on? Not sure about brakes though. Don't think you're using brake lights.
    Frodus, you are a very generous and creative person as shown by this gesture. FA, you really should take up Frodus' offer. He's one of the good ones

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