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Thread: Looking for a Supercommuter ( buy or make)

              
   
   
  1. #1
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    Looking for a Supercommuter ( buy or make)

    I have been digging up electric motorcycle forums and pages for a couple of months.
    I live in semi rural Australia, in close to THE perfect climate in Queensland. No super hot (yet) and no below freezing ever.
    Originally I can to the process with a simple goal. To find a motorcycle ( NOT a scooter) , electric powered , that is capable of comfortable 100/110kph so I can ride into town but no need for more and about 100km range . I have solar powered house so charging can be done at home for free. And about the price of an ICE that could do the same. A sort of Supercommuter.
    I posted on a Facebook page for electric motorcycles and scooters and the flood of people that wanted EXACTLY the same thing was astounding. It seems that even city people that commute to work via motorways have exactly the same problem. Most affordable city emotorcycles and not capable of a safe 100kph for the motorway. For me going to town means riding almost immediately onto a highway covered in 100kph locked semis.And it is a very narrow highway ( welcome to Australia).
    It seems that despite the vast number of emotorcycles becoming available they are alsmot exclusively below 80kph city bikes ( great and practical for city dwellers) or superbikes that are much dearer than buying an ICE one and have ususable top speeds.
    After these months I have seem exactly TWO, that MAY be suitable, at a POSSIBLE affordable price and neither is available yet.
    So...
    Looks like I am having to try a conversion.
    Hopefully I can get enough information to construct something.
    BTW I raced motorcycles for a few years recently , including a sort of Frankenstein class nicknamed "buckets" where we basically stuck bits of motorcycle together to make a racer, so I am coming from a constructor background. eg.
    010910 (2).jpg

  2. #2
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    There are three primary reasons why they don't exist already I'm afraid:
    1 - battery prices
    2 - battery volume
    3 - battery mass

    The former means that 100km worth of pack is going to cost you, nominally, about €3k (I can only speak for Europe here, but I don't expect things are much different in Aus), and then it has to be built into an appropriate form factor to fit into your bike. Putting a price, just on that much, means you're already at 25% of the price of a tier-one motorcycle and we haven't even begun to talk about BMS, Charger, Chassis, Suspension, Brakes... and these things all matter, the early ones for fundamental reasons, and the latter ones for marketability.

    ...and this brings us on to point two - battery volume. Bottom line, batteries are BIG. That 100km at motorway speeds will call for ~10kWh of battery pack (optimistically) and that in turn calls for about 35-40L of space; and again, that's before we get to the charger, BMS, motor and motor controller. So go find yourself a 10 gallon drum, and now go price a chassis that you've got space to jam that into.

    which brings us to point three - batteries, are heavy. You need to budget about 8-10kg/kWh. So that 10kWh pack? that's a ~90kg lump; again, before your motor (20kg), controller (5kg), charger (3.5kg) etc... so now you need a chassis which can hold a 10gallon drum filled with gravel, and still be happy to stop and take a corner (-> suspension and brakes).

    To date, the most credible offering out there is the Zero SR/S - it's entry point is €18k here in Europe and I'm inclined to say that in business case terms, that's a frikkin' miracle.



    Now, all that being said, I reckon you could put a machine worth having together, into an FJR, 'Busa or Blackbird chassis, which would meet your spec, for about €10k if you're in a position to pick the bits up second hand as they pop up (in fact, I've had precisely this in mind myself for a very very very long time now); but you'll still want to be very happy to do all your own fabrication, wiring, integration and debugging - and you certainly wouldn't have anything you could go into a mass market with.


    Now I'll close with the caveat that I'd be abso-f8ckin'-loootly delighted to be proven wrong - so by all means consider the challenge to be extended; and don't let the above put you off having some fun with the notion, but unless you've got some serious resources behind you, the margins simply ain't there. The market you're after wants to buy in at ~€6k and you won't get within an ass's roar of that at the moment I'm afraid.
    Last edited by Spoonman; 2 Weeks Ago at 1726.

  3. #3
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    This is part of the problem I have had with other sites. I suspect it is why bikes so far have ended up as scooter( substitutes ) or superbikes.
    I did say I needed to be able to do 100kph to go on the highway ( or on a motorway) , but the would not be for 100km. The first part of my journey and the last bit is at highway speeds. In my case 8km in and 8km out. The rest is stop start town speeds and behind other vehicles ( reduced drag). That means that a giant battery capacity isn't needed. The same would apply to someone at suburb speeds, then motorway speeds (for a few km) then the rest at town speeds.
    BTW Although I don't need a battery that big 40L is only 300mmX300mmX450mm . That is smaller than both my ICE motorcycle motors, though the emotor would still have to fit as well.
    I can also pick up a full R6 running chassis for 550bucksAud at present. It has a lot of room, but maybe not enough. My biggest worry is how the handling is affected with the high speed rotating mass of the ICE removed.
    I can easily fabricate body work , brakes and spacers etc. ( Did you look at the picture).
    No interest in making a commercial motorcycle for others.
    BTW Loncin's upmarket branch has a bike called Voge ER10 which should do exactly what I want ( if the clains are genuine). Loncin is the company that manufactures/d the BMW F800R and the Husqvana TR650 ( motor and components), both of which I have owned, so I know the quality is OK. Pricing, at the moment, or even guaranteed manufacture, is up in the air , and the current Covid scare will put a brake on it for a while.

  4. #4
    I should be working! furyphoto's Avatar
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    It looks like the ER10 advertises 120km range at 30km/h. Drag due to air resistance on a bike increases exponentially after about 40km/h. The ER10 won't go anywhere near 120km at mixed hwy 100km and surface streets 50-60-km/h with it's 4.2KW battery. Also, 6kw motor won't get you to 100km/h in much of a sporty fashion.

    The rough rule of thumb for battery requirements for mixed riding on a bike is 100wh/mile or 62.5wh/km. So to do 100km you need 6.25kwh of battery, but that's with no reserve, or allowance for extenuating circumstances. 10kwh of battery is likely what you are looking at to be able to get 100km/full charge reasonably safely. That's an estimate, your mileage may vary.

    I think a home brew bike to meet your specs is doable for about $5500-$8500. Something like a ME1507 and suitable controller with 22 leaf modules could likely be shoehorned into an R6 frame. Maybe a smaller module, like chevy volt might make it easier to fit them in the bike. But I think you are looking for 10kw/h of battery ($2500 - $4000), 11-25 kw continuous motor ($1500-$2000), and a controller capable of handling the appropriate amps for that battery/motor combination ($1000ish). Plus your donor bike and bits N pieces ($1500?).
    That would be a worthwhile build. It would get you there , and quite quickly. You could save on the motor/controller, but a the cost of performance. But you will pretty much need 10kw/h of battery for a safe 100km range I think.
    -Andrew

    http://www.andrewdoran.com
    mail(at)andrewdoran.com

    My ElMoto Project "Electric Hurricane" - 1987 Honda CBR600 F1: Check out my Build ALBUM
    My ICE Cafe Racer Project "My Precious" - 1983 Honda CM400 Classic

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregjet View Post
    ... I suspect it is why bikes so far have ended up as scooter( substitutes ) or superbikes.
    I did say I needed to be able to do 100kph to go on the highway ( or on a motorway) , but the would not be for 100km. The first part of my journey and the last bit is at highway speeds. In my case 8km in and 8km out. The rest is stop start town speeds and behind other vehicles ( reduced drag). That means that a giant battery capacity isn't needed.
    Sounds to me like what you need is a Vectrix VX-1.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregjet View Post
    My biggest worry is how the handling is affected with the high speed rotating mass of the ICE removed.
    You don't need to worry about that - the actual rotating (not reciprocating) components in an ICE motor aren't that substantial.
    The rotor in your average motor is *MUCH* heavier than any production crank, clutch & flywheel assembly.

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    Thanks furyphoto,
    Useful stuff, although several of the suggestions won't be available in Aus.
    Note that I was intending to fully fair any motorcycle I made. Coming from a bicycle background originally, I am aware that aero drag is the biggest consumer of power ( cafe racers and nude bikes????? Hmmm lets play parachutes with our limited energy resource for "style" reasons...).
    Even if I end up being able to buy something I would probably fair it as well as I could for the street. That applies to the ER10, if it is available. I did notice the 120km @30kph bit. My most likely max journey on any emotorcycle would be about 40km, so I am guessing I would be covered. Most trips would be half that.
    More iinterested in getting to 100kph in a "commutery" fashion , than a sporty fashion. I am will to bet it will accellerate faster than my Aussie spec Subaru XV 2litre NA fourwheeler does...
    Last edited by gregjet; 2 Weeks Ago at 1313.

  8. #7
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    HI
    as your last post sounds something quite different to your first one i guess things look more promising.
    As said in answer 2 by spoonman 100k at 100kph are not realistic.
    40-50k at 100kph on the other hand are quite achivable in my opinion. And a conversion for that goal won`t break the bank either.
    Take my build for example:
    Converted sachs xtc 125 fully faired 100 € after selling the parts not needet.
    Motor Me1115 (12 KW cont) plus Kelly 96?? for 1400 together
    Bats in my case 22s 90Ah ( 7,2 KwH aprox 5KwH usable) about 1500 or go with used bmw modules (2x12s for about 1200 here in Europe atm as i just found out)
    charger 200
    other parts aprox 700
    registration and mot 170
    So for about 4200€ i have a bike going 125 max, accels in about 5,x sec,
    range is 45-50k minimum at hooligan it on backroads, or 75 by doing 90 on sort of highway roads (sorry i am in germany do not know how you d be calling them- cars only between towns but limited still to 100kph)
    point is, if i go somewhere within 50k i do not even think about range, as long i know i can charge on destination.

    Assuming your 16k on highway and another 24 at slower speeds does not sound like a big problem to me, if you can charge on destination, a 80 roundtrip is easy. (mine takes like 2,5hrs empty to full).

    greets

    flo

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  10. #8
    I should be working! furyphoto's Avatar
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    I doubt the ER10 will accelerate any faster than your Crosstrek. Definitely not to 100kph.
    -Andrew

    http://www.andrewdoran.com
    mail(at)andrewdoran.com

    My ElMoto Project "Electric Hurricane" - 1987 Honda CBR600 F1: Check out my Build ALBUM
    My ICE Cafe Racer Project "My Precious" - 1983 Honda CM400 Classic

  11. #9
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    Do you know how slow FB20 normally aspirated XV's accellerate...lol. I haven't had a car this gutless and heavy since the 70's.
    Before I had it reflashed, it was without low end torque... since reflash , slightly more than no torque. My girlfriend's Hyundai diesel van gets up to speed faster ( not a joke. It actually does).

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