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Thread: GM BAS Hybrid Alternator - Gen1?

              
   
   
  1. #1
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    Question GM BAS Hybrid Alternator - Gen1?

    Hello fellow users from ElMoto.net, i hope that y'all are safe in those times.
    And for the admins/mods, if you find something in this post that its against the rules, please warn me so i can delete the thread, i don't want problems or being banned.


    In the last months i was studying about alternative brands and/or alternative power systems (going away from common brands, like Lynch/Agni/Revolt/Motenergy/etc.), and i saw the threads on the eAssist induction motor here ( by user Nuts & Volts, and more results from e-vektor ), and in Endless-Sphere ( by e-vektor as well ), and i loved the idea to use one of those mild hybrid motors to power an small EV project.

    But then i saw the price of the Curtis AC induction controllers and that was a problem, because i'm not looking for a hyper project, with high voltage (100V+ nominal), dozens of kW continuous and peak values many times bigger than it, nor looking for neck-snapping torque or lots of speed, so i began to search for less demanding power plants, and then i found the "world" of conversion, from standard alternators to brushless motors with separated excitation, being "good enough" for ebikes ( by user CNCmachiningisfun ), small karts ( those 3 karts (kettcar, razor dune buggy and a common kart chassis, made by Tchangly21 ), a dirt bike ( by Tchangly21 as well ), and even a drift trike/power wheels hybrid ( by Fixitmoditbreakit ).

    Normally when i see tests of the people using those alternators (12V 70-140AMP ones), normally they can keep between 1kW and 2kW continuously, and the builds with beefier controllers getting up to almost 4kW peak at 60V, and that's not bad for my idea, but a bit more power won't hurt. And a bit after that was the time where i saw the first generation of the eAssist mild hybrid system, called BAS, used on Saturn Aura/Vue Green Line, and Chevy Malibu Hybrid (from 2007-2010).

    This system is a 36V "alternator" coupled at the 2.4L engine, that can output 4-10kW to the engine crank using the belt (the disparity in values occurs because in some websites they say that the system can output 4kW as motor and 5kW as regen for the NiMH battery, and others says that the system can output and regen close to 10kW), and 110ft-lb of torque (that i believe this is over the engine crank's pulley, after a 2,5:1 or 3:1 reduction by the pulley's sizes, being the correct value between 36ft-lb and 44ft-lb at the motor's pulley).

    If the smaller values of 4kW are correct, this means that the motor can handle ~110A peaks at 36V for a time, and if the bigger values are correct, the current values are even bigger (~277A peak at the same 36V nominal/42V battery pack), making this "odd" piece of equipment good for a small project. Since recently i saw youtubers installing hall sensors on standard alternators, installing those same hall sensors in this BAS motor would allow the possibility of using programmable BLDC controllers (Kelly Controller/Sabvoton/Votol/etc.). And if common 12V alternators can run in 48V while used as motors, probably the 36V BAS alternator can run at 72V, or even 96V, allowing to stay below the 110A "limit" and giving more RPM range.

    Still speaking of the BAS alternator, there's a thread on Endless-Sphere from 2011( by user AcuteAero ), where he buys and opens the BAS alternator and showing his internals, inclusing the different idea of using BOTH magnets and an electromagnetic coil at the rotor, "hybridizing" the standard alternators' claw pole rotor with coils, together with the PM alternator's rotor, but unfortunately he never updated the post with tests or any other information.

    I wanted to just "bite the bullet" and get someone to ship one of these motors directly from the stores to me, so that i can get more things (controller and sensors) and test it, but the shipping is 2,5-4x more expensive than the motor because of the weight and of the international shipping, and because of my current unemployment (and because of the C-virus not letting me able to get a fixed job, only temp. jobs around my neighbourhood), i'm not capable of bringing one to my country now, but i was hoping that, maybe bringing some light for this motor, someone could get interested in it as well, testing for themselves and growing the list of informations about it, just like people made with the Hyunday HSG motor, and the eAssist motor. A quick search in the car-part(dot)net website shows that this motor can be found from 45US$ and up, some of them being close to 200US$ as well, but only found in USA and Canada, not in other countries.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    What are you planning on building? Maybe there are more easily found motors in your area that you are not thinking of.
    Consider modifying a washing machine or clothes dryer motor? Also, depending on what your project is, how about an angle grinder or other power tool like a chain saw or circular saw?
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    What are you planning on building? Maybe there are more easily found motors in your area that you are not thinking of.
    Consider modifying a washing machine or clothes dryer motor? Also, depending on what your project is, how about an angle grinder or other power tool like a chain saw or circular saw?
    My plan is to build a small 4-wheeler project with small and thick/large wheels (still deciding on a quad or kart, depends on how easily i find the necessary bits to build the frame and if i found or not a welder to help me, and guarantee that my frame won't dismantle together with my weight and the batteries on top of it), and since to make a street-legal motorcycle would be even harder than a street-legal car, those two options would be better so i can use them on smaller spaces.

    About the washing machine and clothes dryer motors, from what i see, most of them needs 220V AC from a power outlet, and to try and make this AC voltage i can try to get a lot of batteries and install an expensive VFD, or use a 24V to 220V inverter from trucks and other heavy vehicles, maybe there's other ways to reuse them but i don't know much about.

    And about the idea of the power tools: battery-powered power tools aren't exactly cheap (and not easy to find used), and for a 280lb person + 50-100lb from the metal frame, without counting battery weight, probably they won't be enough to get the 25-30MPH i see people with alternators getting (just like i showed with the links on my first post).

    I could get gas-powered 2-stroke engines from eBay-like websites (motors for chainsaws, brush cutters and other tools), 4-stroke engines like the Predator 212cc, or even motorcycle engines, but that would exchange avaiilability with noise and fuel consumption.

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    hi
    i cannot comment on the alternator....
    but 5kw cont and 12 peak would be exactly the powerband of a motenergy ME07 e-motor.
    Might be cheaper at the end to use said motor and a controller of the shelf and continue the build hazzlefree.
    Maybe buy it used?
    Another option would be alibaba.. seen a 6kw motor there for ,Hmm cannot remember exactly,..about 450US including controller...
    Just food for thought

    flo

  5. #5
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Here is a YouTube of a guy that made a cart with a Honda Civic starter motor.


    https://youtu.be/XG8gWS_-CzM

    But your best bet would be to convert any car alternator https://youtu.be/IKqy3rRWJQE
    Last edited by Stevo; 1 Week Ago at 0928.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
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    Quote Originally Posted by flo View Post
    hi
    i cannot comment on the alternator....
    but 5kw cont and 12 peak would be exactly the powerband of a motenergy ME07 e-motor.
    Might be cheaper at the end to use said motor and a controller of the shelf and continue the build hazzlefree.
    Maybe buy it used?
    Another option would be alibaba.. seen a 6kw motor there for ,Hmm cannot remember exactly,..about 450US including controller...
    Just food for thought

    flo
    Thanks for your answer, flo.

    I won't say i never looked for those Motenergy motors before, they look powerful enough for what i want. My concerns with them are: price (they are a bit more expensive than what i was thinking, between 400USD and 600USD, but probably if i chose them won't be a problem), and weight for international shipping from USA>Brazil (following Motenergy's website specs, ME0909 weighs 26lb, ME0708 weighs 28lb, and ME0709 weighs 36lb). And a standard DC controller like the Alltrax i didn't found the weight, but probably its 15-30lbs as well. Now lets add contactors and other things they need to work safely, will get close to 60-70lbs the closed package, and shipping for this much weight on a big box will cost a lot.

    My country makes the calculation for import taxes over price+shipping cost (in some websites the "kit" with those motors cost close to 900-1100USD, plus 300-400USD from the shipping, more money for insurance, and with 60% over all of that for import taxes, jumps from 900-1100 to 1620-2000USD, and with 2000USD (11380R$), i can get a new street-legal gas motorcycle or a used quad, so it loses the "attractiveness" from going electric, because in that 2000USD i didn't even counted the batteries).

    About the Alibaba option, i don't feel much safe to buy on that website, there's a lot of people that says that to find a real price inside there without falling into a problem is difficult, so i don't know about it, maybe if someone knows a reputable seller inside it could change my opinion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    Here is a YouTube of a guy that made a cart with a Honda Civic starter motor.
    https://youtu.be/XG8gWS_-CzM

    Yes, i searched about starters, but they are sealed and most of the times are wound to be strong and to work in pulses, not in continuous load. So probably i would need to take the starters for someone to rewound them and prepare the "shell" to give it fresh air and not overheat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    But your best bet would be to convert any car alternator https://youtu.be/IKqy3rRWJQE
    Stevo, thanks for the suggestion, but i already brought the "alternator conversion" idea in my older posts in this thread (i'm not fluent in english, so forgive me if this text sounds angry or ungrateful).

    I searched more and found the BOSCH YoungStar e-GoKart Powertrain, that is based also on a ISG (Integrated Starter/Generator) system, the BOSCH's BRS (Boost Recuperation System). In their papers, they show a single alternator/motor that complies with the BRS specs, with 56Nm max torque at the shaft, and 9,8kW max mechanical power output. And in this video ( in their YouTube channel ), they use two of these motors, rising the max power up to 20kW, doubling the torque (112Nm), and the speed up to 140km/h = 87MPH.


    I won't need that much speed (in my city there's a kart track but i still need to know where it is), nor the power/torque level, so i could probably use that idea of a dual motor propulsion, but instead of using those expensive BAS alternators, i could get two standard alternators from the same model, and use two identical controllers for them. Since they won't be as beefy and as prepared for the power draw, cooling fans can be installed to help removing the heated air inside of them, and the power levels probably will be close to 4kW continuous and 8-10kW peak, enough for me and following our idea.
    Last edited by ShadowNightmares; 1 Week Ago at 0946. Reason: spelling errors

  7. #7
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    You keep mentioning cost restrictions so I figured the most affordable and most effective way for you to go is with used alternators. I would think Brazil has plenty of used car parts.
    You still need to buy a controller to run it.
    Last edited by Stevo; 1 Week Ago at 1056.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    You keep mentioning cost restrictions so I figured the most affordable and most effective way for you to go is with used alternators. I would think Brazil has plenty of used car parts.
    You still need to buy a controller to run it.
    Yeah, i think i will grab used alternators to convert, will be cheaper to use them. A couple fans and some heat-resistant tubing will help the airflow and the temps.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    I was thinking a cool project would be to use a motorcycle starter motor for each wheel and have a 4 wheel drive cart. Use an Arduino to create a pulse generator so when you hit the accelerator each wheel will pulse up in speed. You can use a throttle position sensor to make the accelerator control.
    Last edited by Stevo; 1 Week Ago at 1106.
    Current rides: '96 Honda Ohlins VFR, '03 Cannondale C440R, '03 Cannondale Cannibal, '06 Yamaha 450 Wolverine 4x4
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