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Aaron Lephart
22 August 2010, 1554
It was habit to put my bikes on front and rear stands and then leave the bike with 1st gear engaged to oil the chain. When I did this with the Brammo I opened the throttle a little bit to get the chain moving and it held that for about 5 seconds, then all of a sudden it accelerated to 70+MPH before I hit the kill switch. What caused this? My theory is the dash module uses a number of factors to calculate vehicle speed. When the VSS showed the bike was moving and then the GPS reported no movement it "flipped" out. Am I close?

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

gasfreeearth
22 August 2010, 1610
Thats my theory too Ed. Aaron I doubt it would have anything to do with GPS.

Aaron Lephart
22 August 2010, 1621
I don't believe so.

***UPDATE***

Nope. Only thing coming to the front wheel is the brake line.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

magicsmoke
22 August 2010, 1655
This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone anywhere having to hit the kill switch on an electric bike. So they are useful :)

Anyway, is this 'feature' repeatable or a one off.
My 2 pence .. dicky throttle pot

Rob

Aaron Lephart
22 August 2010, 1657
Repeatable.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

Aaron Lephart
22 August 2010, 1722
Yes, its fine.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

Tony Coiro
22 August 2010, 1755
Haha, Ed, you are sooo wise. :D

Brammofan
24 August 2010, 0517
From the Mouth of Brammo via another forum (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=302.msg1486#msg1486):

Harry also had a question:

Does the speedometer measure speed from:
a: the front tire
b: the rear tire
c: the motor
d: GPS coordinates
e: magical fairies somewhere inside the body?

And the answer is....the mph display is driven by the motor contoller measuring the motor speed. Therefore any changes to the rear wheel, rear sprocket, or even rear tire would make the speedo innacurate.

Aaron Lephart
01 September 2010, 1406
Out of the blue David Harvey call's me up and asks if he could stop by on his way up from San Diego, I said sure! He made some setting changes and now the bike does not do this! Thanks Brammo and David!

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

Aaron Lephart
02 September 2010, 1049
Contrary to what David had indicated to me after his quick ride of the bike after it was "fixed". The bike does not cost as easily or far as it did before. This is not a bad thing! I find it much more comparable to an I.C.E. powered motorcycle. It still coasts down hills but will maintain the speed limit rather then make me put on the brakes. And from what I can tell has NO impact on range. Coasting for a 1/4 mile may be possible up in Ashland but that’s not going to happen around here!

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

HighlanderMWC
02 September 2010, 1109
Are you referring to coasting on an ICE with drivetrain not engaged (clutch disengaged or transmission in neutral)?

Unless something were majorly wrong you would doubtless be hard-pressed to see a range variation unless you made some pretty drastic changes in riding style.

Aaron Lephart
02 September 2010, 1230
I would be referring to engine braking in a tall gear. It's not ALOT but noticeable.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

HighlanderMWC
03 September 2010, 1359
Wow, I wonder what he changed then...the rolling resistance I experience under no throttle is nowhere near that level.

Aaron Lephart
08 September 2010, 2003
OK just eliminating the possibility of driveline parasitic loses affecting the coasting of the bike. I checked PSI (was down 2) and oiled and tightened the chain. I am definitely getting more "engine braking" then before David's visit. And I love it! How this is not affecting the range I don't know.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

Aaron Lephart
10 September 2010, 1039
OK rather then start a new thread I will just add to this, seeing as the changes David made are probably a contributing factor.

Upon starting off on my morning commute after the bike was charging all night the fans came on and the dash displayed 180F motor temp and then started going up rapidly. So I shut the bike down and restarted it, no problems. I thought maybe the last recorded temperature may have been stored in the computer and it was just reading that temperature until it was updated. Because I do remember the fan being on when I shut the bike down yesterday. However that does not explain why the temperature was rising.

Then, ok, that was over and I go to breakfast and upon the trip home I got a "Charging REQD B53" error on the dash, and I was still at 38%.

No worries, David is coming out next week to fix a rear fender mount that mysteriously cracked.


All the best,
Aaron Lephart

teddillard
10 September 2010, 1307
Wow, I can't believe they're doing all this for someone who bought used. Must be getting R&D data from it... ya think? Either that or they figure you for a new Empulse upgrade? Don't take that the wrong way. ;)

...at any rate, Brammo continues to impress.

billmi
10 September 2010, 1629
My thoughts exactly. I can defenitely see a new company wanting to make sure every bike out there, new or used is running well, but repeated house calls.. That is very impressively going above and beyond.

Richard230
10 September 2010, 1757
And now you know why I have ordered a Brammo Empulse to replace my GPR-S.

Aaron Lephart
10 September 2010, 1805
And now you know why I have ordered a Brammo Empulse to replace my GPR-S.

And why I have an Empulse on preorder. :)

Yes Brammo has been very easy to deal with. And the fact that I bought it "used" should not come into play. I bought two models of "year old" Corvette's from private parties and I was never shunned by a dealership. And those saw repair bills into the thousands!

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

teddillard
12 September 2010, 0741
From what I understand, first, warranty coverage depends solely on the agreement when the product is purchased. If you're buying from a dealer the warranty is covered by them, and under the terms they specify. If you purchase it from a private party, as far as I understand it, all bets are off, and it's solely the discretion of the manufacturer that dictates coverage.

This varies from state to state, and, far from being a clear cut issue, is one where you'd be well-served consulting a lawyer if you're not clear.

In any case, it's clearly something that you'd be mistaken to take for granted- based on experience with other products and purchases or not. And it's most definitely to Brammo's credit that they are standing behind your bike without question. I do believe they are acting in their own interests- they're certainly learning from every person and every bike out there, and subsequent designs will certainly benefit. They're giving themselves better PR than anything they could possibly do any other way, too.

Sorry, but I've had a bit more coffee than is healthy- but it seems like you feel entitled to this type of service. The fact that you bought it used certainly does come into play. Clearly you appreciate it, but take it for what it is- a company going over and above what they need to, to make you happy and stand behind their product.

Aaron Lephart
12 September 2010, 2256
Ted, well thought out. And I do agree, Brammo has been great to work with. Rather then get into a pissing debate I just want to remind you a couple of my "visits" from a Brammo tech was a result of componant failure (dashboard) and improper torque specs being given to me (80ft lbs instead of 8). So they are not without fault to a degree. To error is human....

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

billmi
13 September 2010, 0324
Yep, not to say you haven't had any problems that shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I've never even known who the factory rep was (if there even was one in my region) let alone been offered a house call to fix a problem with any of the motorcycles I've owned, new or used, over the years.

teddillard
13 September 2010, 0342
I need no reminder of the details of your issues... and I stand by my comments. Everything you've posted falls under the cover of "Manufacturer Warranty"- even your question about torque specs.

I am a dealer for very high-end digital cameras- the pricing starts at $25,000- have been for over 10 years. Between supporting our customers directly and helping them get support from the manufacturers, I think I understand the issues quite well. In a situation you find yourself in, any of our manufacturers would have said, sorry, no warranty coverage is transferable to a second owner. I would, as a dealer interested in attracting you as a client, supported you as much as I could, but at a certain point I'd have to say you were on your own. Even the torque question- the answer you'd have had from any of the companies would have been, go to your dealer for that information... honestly, without being a registered owner you wouldn't even have gotten that far- and you'd be sol.

One of the really interesting things to me are the similarities between the high-end digital photo industry in the mid-'90s and the electric motorcycle industry now. The systems are complex, and expensive- also evolving incredibly fast. They're assembled by very small teams- I'll always remember walking into one of the biggest camera/scanner manufacturers and seeing their assembly operation- essentially a small clean room shop with about a dozen sets of parts on the bench. You had the same service then- you often talked to the guy who designed the thing when you called Tech Support. And even then, when they were selling hundreds of these things a year, and they were almost selling prototypes, you wouldn't have got past the gates as a used buyer.

There was also a very small cast of characters- and we still keep running into each other. As far as the electric motorcycle industry goes, it's even smaller- I think I've "met" through here, LinkedIn, personally or other places just about everyone in the industry at this point...

Anyway, pissing match isn't the point- Brammo's commitment to their products is. And, not intending to sound pissy, but to simply make a point, it's not their commitment to their customers we're discussing, because you are not their customer. Until you get your Empulse, of course... :D

Don't misunderstand... I'm not trying to make some big personal issue here- but I think it's very important at this point in the birth of this industry to understand expectations in support and coverage for these products. We've seen, here on ElMoto, several instances where companies have provided really bad, if no service and support to customers who've purchased through dealers or direct. We're painfully aware of companies that have essentially acted fraudulently. Anyone buying any bike out there- Brammo included- has to ask themselves if the company is going to be around in 5 years. This is a huge issue, and just what is a reasonable expectation for a new buyer, as well as a used buyer, is an important question.

(Edit- too much coffee)
Rereading this, and thinking about your comments about your cars- that's a perfect example, actually. Your cars represent huge manufacturing operations, in my world the equivalent is Nikon or Canon. We saw that constantly- buyers expecting they were dealing with some huge company with resources to match, when in fact, they were dealing with small teams making essentially hand-made products with severely limited resources. 'Nuff said.

billmi
13 September 2010, 0420
I'm not sure the camera comparison fits so well. My work in liability mitigation has been in a different industry than motor vehicles, but it has something in common, a chain of liability that extends beyond the warranty period. I've also sold professional video equipment, and like digital cameras a failure because something was set up to the wrong spec can mean fines from the FCC, lost money from a shoot not happening, or someone losing their job. Put the wrong torque on the key component of a vehicle, or the neck connecting a regulator to a 4,500 psi gas cylinder and someone can be hospitalized or die. Juries in liability suits don't really care who bought a product first, or when the warranty expired, they care about whether the product was built safe to start with and if the manufacturer took all reasonable steps to keep it safe after it left their hands. Ever had a component in a vehicle recalled? The manufacturer doesn't just replace the component for original owners under warranty, they replace them for everyone, because they have a legal responsibility and or significant liability exposure as a reason to do so.

That said, house calls are still over the top for customer service.

teddillard
13 September 2010, 0447
Right, I totally agree- when you add liability to the equation, something that's a lot more important in vehicle manufacturing, it's a different story. The only comparison I can make to a recall in the digital back products would be software and firmware upgrades.

But, honestly nothing Aaron has brought up would enter into a liability issue, would it? For that reason in particular, Brammo could have simply said, contact your dealer or authorized service tech for torque specs, and any good mechanic would have done a fine job. Instead, Dave chose to provide the information, and yes, once he did that he took responsibility for his mistake- as any good service tech would, but also, once he's crossed that line, he has to, from a liability standpoint.

My main point is the company's resources. Aaron's making the comparison between Brammo support and GM- that comparison can't be made fairly- and the expectation that they can provide the same level of support is unfair as well.

This all has to do with the bigger issue of general consumer expectations... and is a deeper question for anyone in retail competing with the big-box stores that do stuff like no-question refunds and like that- stuff that a small retailer just can't offer. It's interesting that Brammo has allied itself with BestBuy, you've got to guess a big reason is to be able to meet those consumer expectations.

OK, no more coffee for Ted.

Richard230
13 September 2010, 0754
I would like to point out that every motorcycle owner's manual that I have ever seen (except for the GPR-S manual) has some fastener torque specifications provided. These usually include axle nuts, brake caliper fasteners, oil drain bolt, handlebar holding bolts, etc. Any of these manuals could have a typo. What is the difference between having a misprint in a printed manual or in a written email from a representative of the company? Anyone can make a mistake and it is what is done after the mistake is discovered that can make or break the reputation of the company. So far Brammo has lived up to a high ethical standard in my eyes. They are certainly better than some large multi-product corporations that I could name.

Aaron Lephart
13 September 2010, 2002
FYI for 2 days now it has'nt done the temperture raise issue. It may have worked itself out! I love random problems! I would be curious to see what the memory stick has stored about that error code.

All the best,
Aaron Lephart

teddillard
15 September 2010, 0459
Bill, your comment has been on my mind- it begs the question- what about custom builds? Shops like Hammarhead, Zero Engineering- when they build a bike, what's the warranty/liability exposure for them? Can a small custom builder just build and sell the bikes, provide basic coverage for the original buyer, and be relatively assured they won't have to cover the bike for life?

Enquiring minds want to know...

Richard230
15 September 2010, 0722
That is an excellent question, Ted. Are there any product liability lawyers registered with El Moto that respond to that inquiry? My guess is probably not.

teddillard
15 September 2010, 0803
Well, Bill said "My work in liability mitigation"... god knows what that means, but thought he may have some insight. :D

billmi
15 September 2010, 1000
It means working with a client, their attorneys and their industry standards association to ensure that their products and product documentation convey the proper operation and service methods make them as safe as possible, minimizing risk of injury to the public and also liability for the client. It wasn't in the automotive or motorcycle industry though and those have additional layers of government oversight defining requirements and liability. Whether you're a big or small company, if you build something, tell people how to build something, come up with an idea bout something, or are some way connected to something, and someone hurts themselves with it, you're a potential civil suit target. If you bypassed or ignored governmental, written industry, or even unwritten yet commonly used industry standards, your liability exposure increases.

Add to that legal foolishness, and pretty much it's a hopeless world. Client makes product A. This is really obtuse, because I can't name names, but... End user buys product B used (made by someone else, vaguely similar in shape to product A) and takes it to a third party to have a connected part device tested as mandated by the federal government. Third party has not been trained in how to service A or B, just how to test the connected part, and he admits to regularly breaking parts similar to A and B while removing them for testing. The third party clearly admits to not knowing recommended torque or adhesives used in connecting or disconnecting the parts. After the test, part B fails, causing an injury, and the injured party sues the client and the end user. End user obtains product A, and claims it is the part that failed (despite the fact that it is unbroken, and physically incompatible like a square peg in a round hole). All sides spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and settle out of court. My role... I develop training materials for the federally certified testers to learn how to safely remove and reinstall part A, and product labeling directing them to that documentation. Liability mitigation is crazy like that, because so many possible situations are literally inconceivable. They don't become an issue until they happen, or happen and someone sets precedent by winning a suit over them. Who knew that buckets would need a warning on them telling you not to let babies drown in buckets? No one, until it was noticed that an alarmingly high number had, and now CPSC has set standards for warnings, don't follow those standards and who's at fault? Who knew that Panda Express would have to warn you that the Kung Pao Chicken is spicy and has peanuts. It seems pretty obvious - if it didn't have peanuts and chicken, it wouldn't be fricking Kung Pao chicken, but put a poor victim in front of a jury and "somebody has to pay". Now order some Kung Pao. There's no sign, but the person behind the counter will let you know it's spicy, and has peanuts.

teddillard
15 September 2010, 1346
wow. ok.

im gonna stick to my "stay poor and uninsured so nobody goes after my money cause i got none and ain't gonna get none anytime soon" strategy.

Richard230
15 September 2010, 1408
What Billmi discusses is exactly the reason that most motorcycle shops give for not being willing to mount tires that were not bought in their store (that is bought on the internet or from a catalog) on your motorcycle wheels.

That reasoning also occurred to me when I saw in the EMS GPR-S owners manual a comment that you should take your GPR-S to a qualified motorcycle shop to have the chassis serviced and repaired. I was really wondering what the reaction would be if you took a Tiger-brand chassis to your local Honda motorcycle dealer and asked them to install new brake pads, change the oil in the forks, adjust the rear chain, grease the swing arm bearings, or replace the tires. I am pretty sure you would get the "bum's rush" out the door.

teddillard
15 September 2010, 1416
So, what about custom build shops, got any observations on that, Bill?

Richard230
15 September 2010, 1424
Another good question, Ted. I have a feeling that custom build shops construct motorcycles that seldom see the pavement and their customers tend to be people that don't make waves for fear that if they do no one will take them as a customer any more.

Of course sometimes they get tripped up, like when West Coast Choppers got hit with hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines by the CA EPA for selling motorcycles with motors that did not receive EPA approval as "smog-motors". Apparently WCC offered to fix each of the bikes that they had sold, but their offer was rejected as CA wanted the cash instead. The CA EPA was apparently more interested in the money than clean air.

billmi
16 September 2010, 1253
wow. ok.

im gonna stick to my "stay poor and uninsured so nobody goes after my money cause i got none and ain't gonna get none anytime soon" strategy.

That's been my approach ever since an attorney advised me that forming an s corp or llc would not shield me from claims connected to articles written prior to the corp.

The first game of paintball was organized by 3 guys with forestry pistols. One of them formed the first paintball supply company' then left the industry around 1990 or so, and got into the ski industry. In the last decade he has been sued by people injured with products he did not design, sell or endorse, playing a game with rules he did not write. He was targeted because he had assets, and has been hailed as the inventor of paintball.

As for custom shops, that's not an area I've worked in, so take my thoughts with an even bigger grain of salt than usual... I would not expect the size of the company to have any effect on levels of product safety or the support needed to maintain that safety. I suspect there is probably a difference between manufacturers (they make their own VIN) and customizers (shops that build on a registered frame).

teddillard
16 September 2010, 1321
yeah, I got the same advice a long time ago - seems to be working still. :D A photographer I assisted for once had a passerby push her fat butt through our barricades- she tripped, fell, and broke her arm. Sued everybody, including us, then the suits just dropped away as they figured out who had money and who didn't. It was almost comical. If it wasn't so pathetic.

I assume the usual liability disclaimer thing in any P/S is worthless... makes you wonder how these guys do it. You get to the point of OCC and you've got to figure somebody's going to go after you. 'Course by then you can afford it, I s'pose.