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View Full Version : Empulse RR not sure if this is a repost.. LOOKING GOOD!!



gasnomore
02 May 2011, 2102
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/1104/Motorcycle-Video/Racing-Brammo-Empulse-RR-Part-I-Video.aspx

chef
02 May 2011, 2237
300v, 60kW motor. WOW :O

Any chance that will make it into the production Empulses or is it only for the race bike?

Skeezmour
02 May 2011, 2328
Those videos just get me amped up for racing!

mechanic
03 May 2011, 0853
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/1104/Motorcycle-Video/Racing-Brammo-Empulse-RR-Part-I-Video.aspx

Just read the Steve Atlas report; Surprised to find out that after 10 months of R&D the Empulse still cannot go more than a few laps without over heating and ruining the motor. If this is the Brammo technology that is "trickling down" from track to consumer then things are not looking good for the empulse buyer. Maybe another Brammo delay is to be anounced.

Nuts & Volts
03 May 2011, 0914
Just read the Steve Atlas report; Surprised to find out that after 10 months of R&D the Empulse still cannot go more than a few laps without over heating and ruining the motor. If this is the Brammo technology that is "trickling down" from track to consumer then things are not looking good for the empulse buyer. Maybe another Brammo delay is to be anounced.

Brammo doesnt design the motor. Parker Motions does, so its not really a reflection of Brammo's R&D. It just shows that Brammo is pushing the envelope and when working with Parker to build the best motor they can. Also the Brammo Empulse motor is not the same one as in the RR. The Empulse will not be able to be pushed as hard as the RR and will hopefully monitor the motor temp to keep everything in check.

-Kyle

DaveAK
03 May 2011, 0924
Just read the Steve Atlas report; Surprised to find out that after 10 months of R&D the Empulse still cannot go more than a few laps without over heating and ruining the motor. If this is the Brammo technology that is "trickling down" from track to consumer then things are not looking good for the empulse buyer. Maybe another Brammo delay is to be anounced.
Your logic is a little bit screwey there. There's no reason to suspect that the Empulse will perform poorly on the road just because it overheats on the track. I suspect the Enertia would suffer simialr problems if raced as overheating seems to be a problem most teams suffer from. However, I haven't heard of a string of complaints from Enertia riders.

Oh, and what Kyle says too.

mechanic
03 May 2011, 0931
Brammo doesnt design the motor. Parker Motions does, so its not really a reflection of Brammo's R&D. -Kyle

sourced from Brammo:

a Brammo press release boasts the Empulse will see “the first application of Brammo’s innovative Brammo Digital Drivetrain™

and

Headlining the new design is Brammo’s water-cooled electric powertrain, with the company claiming status as the first water-cooled electric powerplant in motorcycle production.

Brammo claims it is their design of a Parker motor.

Nuts & Volts
03 May 2011, 0939
sourced from Brammo:

a Brammo press release boasts the Empulse will see “the first application of Brammo’s innovative Brammo Digital Drivetrain™

and

Headlining the new design is Brammo’s water-cooled electric powertrain, with the company claiming status as the first water-cooled electric powerplant in motorcycle production.

Brammo claims it is their design of a Parker motor.

My understanding seems to be out of date then. But maybe the current motor is a more standard Parker motor (that his overheating in the article/video). Then the Brammo/Parker designed motor your source talks about is the updated one that the article says will be installed soon?? This would make sense that Brammo has been learning from the overheating motor to better understand how to co-develop a better one.

I know for sure the production Empulse (well the show model they bring around) does not have a Brammo designed motor. I have seen it in person and have pictures...

mechanic
03 May 2011, 1246
Your logic is a little bit screwey there. There's no reason to suspect that the Empulse will perform poorly on the road just because it overheats on the track. I suspect the Enertia would suffer simialr problems if raced...

Good point and I agree... racing a scooter would likely be a disaster but the article refers to their "performance bike" which could see and should be able to handle at least a few laps around a track! - seems logical.

DaveAK
03 May 2011, 1335
Good point and I agree... racing a scooter would likely be a disaster but the article refers to their "performance bike" which could see and should be able to handle at least a few laps around a track! - seems logical.
You go ahead and make your logic work for you anyway you want sunshine.

If Brammo are selling the Empulse as a track ready electric motorcycle then it's a different story.

BrammoBrian
03 May 2011, 1402
Good point and I agree... racing a scooter would likely be a disaster but the article refers to their "performance bike" which could see and should be able to handle at least a few laps around a track! - seems logical.

Dang... Harsh. Who said the bike can only do a few laps?

For the record, I think alot of teams (full of some crazy smart guys I might add!) have struggled with either overheating motors or controllers, neither of which are simple issues to solve. The problem with these motors is that they cannot run as hot as your typical gasoline engine, so using motorcycle radiators and cooling methodology doesn't always get you there. There are other issues introduced as the motor starts spinning at 10,000 + RPM and the switching frequency required to maintain control at that rotor speed. I should also point out that if you don't push the limits from time to time, then you don't make progress. Let's see what happens in the race... I'm optimistic. ;)

Skeezmour
03 May 2011, 1416
Cooling is no small task. I am working on some cooling issues for a small EV in my conversion shop. The work teams like Brammo, Swigz, Zero, Lightning ect are going to pay dividends to all of us consumers of electric motors and controllers.

I'm optimistic that this race season is going to see some HUGE advances over last year.

See you there Brian

Nuts & Volts
03 May 2011, 1416
...I should also point out that if you don't push the limits from time to time, then you don't make progress. Let's see what happens in the race... I'm optimistic. ;)

Yep, how else do you know that you need or should make something better, faster, stronger, or whatever. The more you break the smarter you are! (well kinda)

Push it too the limits Brammo and then sell us whatever doesnt fall over the edge :)

teddillard
03 May 2011, 1425
The more you break the smarter you are


I must be WICKED smaaat. :D

Thanks for chiming in, Brian, it's nice to hear it from the source.

mechanic
03 May 2011, 1620
The problem with these motors is that they cannot run as hot as your typical gasoline engine, so using motorcycle radiators and cooling methodology doesn't always get you there. ;)

Electric motors can successfully run up to 130C/250F, ICE around 130C/250F+ (though specific combustion and exhaust temps can be much higher++) However electric motors are 3x+ more efficient and typically produce far less kW so in the end there is LESS heat to remove. And that is exactly what "motorcycle radiators" and "cooling methodology" do... absorb heat then reject it, is Brammo working on another method?


There are other issues introduced as the motor starts spinning at 10,000 + RPM and the switching frequency required to maintain control at that rotor speed.

So you are having controller issue too? Now that is a big problem. But of course there is probably little/no reason for you to spin your motor to 10,000rpm. I would expect that 10K is outside of your motors efficiency curve and beyond its peak torque and power output but I guess that is pushing the envelope!?

teddillard
03 May 2011, 1641
For them that want to understand the issues of cooling a little bit better, there are a couple of things that happen. First, when a motor gets hot, the resistance in the motor windings increases, making it less efficient. Lemmee see... I have it here somewhere. Here it is, on this thread:
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?49-motor-cooling.-redux.-again.

"In a nutshell, losses due to resistance are equal to the motor current squared x resistance.
Copper resistance increases about 40 percent per 100 degC (and hence do the losses!)
A typical armature resistance is about 0.04 ohms at 20 degC

So losses from 20 degC to 120 degC at ..
10A go from 10A x 10A x 0.04R = 4 watts to 5.6 watts
100A go from 100 x 100 x 0.04 = 400 watts to 560 watts
200A go from 200 x 200 x 0.04 = 1600 watts to 2240 watts"

Thanks Rob.

Then, there's the fact that permanent magnet motors loose their magnetism after a certain temperature. Not a good thing.

And, of course, the fact that motors tend to burn up if they are run too hot... pretty much everybody that can is running some sort of cooling and having problems with overheating stuff, as Brian said, didn't he just now?

Anyway, contentious posters jumping to conclusions aside, yeah, cooling is a problem. :p

markcycle
03 May 2011, 1803
I can tell you first hand when you are pushing every component to the limit it doesn't take much to fall over the edge and things go bad fast. testing in the public eye is not the best environment for product development but at times can't be avoided, i just learned this the hard way as most of us on small budgets with limited time have learned.

BrammoBrian
03 May 2011, 1803
Electric motors can successfully run up to 130C/250F, ICE around 130C/250F+ (though specific combustion and exhaust temps can be much higher++) However electric motors are 3x+ more efficient and typically produce far less kW so in the end there is LESS heat to remove. And that is exactly what "motorcycle radiators" and "cooling methodology" do... absorb heat then reject it, is Brammo working on another method?

Yes.


So you are having controller issue too? Now that is a big problem. But of course there is probably little/no reason for you to spin your motor to 10,000rpm. I would expect that 10K is outside of your motors efficiency curve and beyond its peak torque and power output but I guess that is pushing the envelope!?

No, we are not having controller issues. Why would you assume that 10k is outside the motor's efficiency curve and beyond its peak torque and power output? Do you have particular experiences with this type of motor? Will we be seeing you on the grid at the race? You seem to have many strong opinions related to EV motorcycle racing is why I ask, so I assume that you're a member on one of the teams?

cycleguy
03 May 2011, 1805
I think the critical issue with motor cooling centers around what part of the motor is overheating. Simply circulating liquid around the motor housing may keep the housing and stator cooled, but this doesn't do much for keeping the rotor cooled. Cooling the rotor is a much more complex affair which may require a specific motor design. Using either a hollow rotor shaft allowing coolant to carry away heat from the rotor, or perhaps internal spray jets that shower the rotor before draining into a sump to get recirculated through a radiator.
The key is to accurately map heat buildup in the motor, then find the most effective way to cool it. This takes some time, but I'm sure they'll figure it out soon enough.

lugnut
03 May 2011, 1925
Does anyone find it odd that the most powerful, heaviest electric bikes like those of Yates, Czysz and Lightning don't seem to have thermal issues with the motor?

DaveAK
03 May 2011, 1939
Does anyone find it odd that the most powerful, heaviest electric bikes like those of Yates, Czysz and Lightning don't seem to have thermal issues with the motor?
Not in the slightest, but so what? Taking one component out of context of a complete system is pointless. From what I've learned large motors do a better job of handling the heat, so it's no surprise that the most powerful, heaviest bikes don't have a motor heat problem if they're using larger motors. Put smaller motors in and they'll have the same problems as eveyone else.

jpanichella
03 May 2011, 1954
I mean, Yates' motor probably weighs 200 pounds, plenty of thermal mass.

markcycle
03 May 2011, 1958
Does anyone find it odd that the most powerful, heaviest electric bikes like those of Yates, Czysz and Lightning don't seem to have thermal issues with the motor?

Are any of those bikes for sale that anyone could afford?

cycleguy
03 May 2011, 2000
The UQM motor is huge and I don't think Yates is pushing it past it's design limits. Czysz has to start from scratch designing the motor housing for the Remy rotor/stator assy. and did a nice job. The Lightning used an EV1 motor that was designed for EV applications from the start.
It seems the motors that are having cooling problems are the ones that began life as industrial motors and are now being stressed beyond their cooling abilities. I'm not sure of Parker's level of involvement with Brammo on this project, but I suspect the motor is a modified version of one of their industrial units, that is going through a trial and error period of development. Nothing wrong with that, sometimes it's the most cost effective route.

Nuts & Volts
03 May 2011, 2001
Does anyone find it odd that the most powerful, heaviest electric bikes like those of Yates, Czysz and Lightning don't seem to have thermal issues with the motor?

Nope, all three of those bikes use motors that have been in production for at least 3 years. All three motors were designed and manufactured for automotive use with safisticated cooling systems designed in. Brammo is at about 10months with their motor development, probably have less than half the budget the 3 other companies (UQM, Remy, and GM) had when they developed there motors, and already have another motor to throw in and test. I'd say they are doing pretty damn well.

UQM motor is 110lbs fyi

DaveAK
03 May 2011, 2054
I'd guess the answer is no, noone finds it odd.

teddillard
04 May 2011, 0255
No, that's exactly the point. You have two choices, cooling, or running a bigger motor. Bigger motors = more weight. Nothing odd about that. The theory is that you can run a smaller, lighter motor and push the same power through it by cooling it.

As for the historic performance, I think you're going to see a whole new landscape out there this year, bubbah. :D

Brian, regarding our friend mechanic, he's just holding to form. (Take a look at his post history and judge for yourself... I've found it's not worth getting into it with him, myself, but I already have a teenager to argue nonsense with.)

billmi
04 May 2011, 0607
No, we are not having controller issues. Why would you assume that 10k is outside the motor's efficiency curve and beyond its peak torque and power output?

Because he lurks and only occasionally posts to rip on people. By making assumptions he can rag on people more than if he were limited to facts alone.

The new Brammo motard designs look great, by the way.

gasnomore
05 May 2011, 0739
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110504005621/en/Brammo-Announces-Strategic-Partnership-S.M.R.E.-Launches-Brammo

Looking good yeah!!

gasnomore
05 May 2011, 0747
http://www.smre.it/eng/scheda_news.php?id=90
From their last event in Dec 2010.
I'd like to take one for a good ride!

jazclrint
13 June 2011, 0628
I can tell you first hand when you are pushing every component to the limit it doesn't take much to fall over the edge and things go bad fast. testing in the public eye is not the best environment for product development but at times can't be avoided, i just learned this the hard way as most of us on small budgets with limited time have learned.

I for one, am very grateful that Brammo has been so open. I like watching them work through the issues. It gives me more confidence in their product.