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elmotofan
05 February 2012, 1507
Does anyone have an update on the delivery schedule of the Enertia Plus and Empulse ? Last time I checked(Dec 2011) with Adrian Stewart(Brammo Sales and Marketing) he indicated possible Q1 delivery . Do we know if this is still on track ? Anyone have a better update ? The delivery of 2012 Zeromotorcycles currently underway(see review by Richard under Zero forum), will we hear anything similarr from Brammo shortly? People in the know please advise..

Richard230
05 February 2012, 1603
No news yet. But you will see it first here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php

There is an occasional poster that uses the handle "the special one" who is apparently the Brammo Sales Director (or in a similar position) and he will likely make the first announcement on that forum.

mechanic
05 February 2012, 1635
Brammo still has parts for over 250+ Enertias sitting in a warehouse from the original approx. 300 order. Brammo has spent 10's of millions of dollars and sold less than 50 units (Best Buy sold approx. 10)

The Enertia is a huge (horid looking) fail, maybe the new models can do better but I assume they have learned a lesson and are reluctant to use all their new (expensive) cash on another production run without some sales confirmation- thus the huge pre-order campaign they tried. I assume pre-orders did not deliver so as you have seen delays have resulted. The reason given was for transmission. Obviously if real interest existed, Brammo would have starting building/selling what they had planned and then naturally developed the new 6 speed for a later model.

Zero looks to be in a far better position.

Richard230
05 February 2012, 1644
Brammo supposedly had about 1500 pre-orders for the Empulse. I have said a number of times that they should have produced the original single-speed version, sold that first and struck while the iron and enthusiasm was hot. Pulling the plug and going back to redesign the bike with the new 6-speed transmission may ultimately produce a better vehicle, but the long wait is going to kill sales now that the Zero is out and on the showroom floor.

I my guess it that the Empulse Plus will do better in Europe (where it might be introduced first). I think the Europeans will appreciate the design more and it might fit into their more urban lifestyle better.

mechanic
05 February 2012, 1654
The Brammo pre-order would not hold up to any real scrutiny as there was no real commitment/deposit required. Obviously Brammo tried to flush a percentage of these out and did not like the trend. If there would have been an honest 1,500 buyers they would have built 1,500!

Richard230
05 February 2012, 1656
The Brammo pre-order would not hold up to any real scrutiny as there was no real commitment/deposit required. Obviously Brammo tried to flush a percentage of these out and did not like the trend. If there would have been an honest 1,500 buyers they would have built 1,500!

I can't argue with that. At least not from a business perspective.

protomech
06 February 2012, 0850
Brammo still has parts for over 250+ Enertias sitting in a warehouse from the original approx. 300 order. Brammo has spent 10's of millions of dollars and sold less than 50 units (Best Buy sold approx. 10)

Source? 50 sounds low to me - I think there have been around a dozen owners posting on brammoforum at one time or another. The demographic skews tech-savvy, but that seems like a high percentage of owners represented on the forum if only 50 bikes have been sold.

I count 20 claimed Enertia owners on the owners map, and know of a couple owners posting in the forums who are not on the map. Owners aren't the same as sales, but I would be surprised if 40% of the bikes sold were represented in one place.
http://brammoforum.com/brammo-owners-map.php


The Brammo pre-order would not hold up to any real scrutiny as there was no real commitment/deposit required. Obviously Brammo tried to flush a percentage of these out and did not like the trend. If there would have been an honest 1,500 buyers they would have built 1,500!

Agree. The preorders are not binding, only a small percentage will buy. Many of the preorders will drop.

As a point of comparison, Nissan's Leaf had over 20000 preorders ($99 refundable deposit) and is converting about 1 in 4 of those to sales. They had at least 26k preorders going into sales, and sold 10k their first year.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/09/nissan-pledges-to-fulfill-all-leaf-pre-orders-by-end-of-septembe/

Factor in the no-risk nature of the Empulse preorder and Brammo's youth; Brammo will probably do well to see 1 in 8 preorders turn into sales. Similarly to the Leaf, however, there will be many who have not preordered but will consider the bike once it is an actual shipping product.

elmotofan
01 March 2012, 1837
I just received an e-mail from Brammo stating the following

The much anticipated Enertia Plus is now entering production and your pre-order has reached the point where you will need to confirm your order by following the link below. Once you have confirmed your order you will be contacted with a delivery date, and at that time you will be expected to make a non-refundable deposit of $1000.

They sent me a link asking me to "confirm" that I am still interested. I did the confirmation and it took me to page that says US deliveries begin in June 2012. Now I guess, I wait to hear from them about the deposit. The e-mail details out the new battery technology Lithium NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese Oxide).

I thought they were going to offer 3 different "range"models and I distictly remember signing up for the longest range, but the e-mail just states Battery Capacity: 6.2 kWh (nominal) and Max Range: 80 miles / 128 km (based on MIC “city” range test) . Honestly, it has been so long since I pre-ordered, I dont even remember tht any more!

Is this just a reaction to Zero's product launch ? OR is this truly the start of Brammos production ? Anyone else receive similar e-mail ?

Also, how does this compare to the Zero ZF9 from a battery / range perspective ?

electriKAT
01 March 2012, 2029
> I'm pretty sure the original description listed 60, 80, 100 mile options.

I stand corrected. The email addresses the Enertia Plus, not the Empulse.

Richard230
02 March 2012, 0838
The model that they are describing in this announcement is the "Enertia Plus". This is a version of the original Enertia with about double the battery capacity (and therefore range). The version with the 60/80/100 mile options would be the Empulse, which is a more normal-looking high performance (100-mph) sport-bike with a 6-speed transmission. As far as I know, the production schedule for the Empulse has not been announced for that model. I am pretty sure that the introduction of Zero's 2012 model line and current (relative) sales success, is the reason for Brammo's order deposit program at this time. They are trying to slow down Zero's sales while they ramp up production of the Enertia Plus at their factory in Europe. The word is that the Empulse will be built at their factory in Oregon. The first of those bikes will probably come off the assembly line late this year (that is just my guess).

The Empulse Plus should compare in range with the ZF6 Zero S, although the Zero will have about a 15-mph higher top speed. I own a ZF9 (rated at 9 kWh) and it has a 114-mile range at urban speeds, but the actual range really depends upon the speed that you ride. I would say that if you ride 1/3 freeway, 1/3 expressway and 1/3 residential, you can expect a real-world range of around 60 +/- miles, depending upon hills and wind. I have had my Zero up to 85 mph and it does very well holding an 80 mph speed up a 6% freeway hill - while rapidly sucking electrons out of its battery pack.

Tony Coiro
03 March 2012, 1013
On a related note, does anyone else thing 6 speeds is kinda silly when you top out at 100MPH? Most gassers hit 100 in 2nd. (Although apparently some modern liter bikes will do 100MPH in 1st?!)

Brutus
03 March 2012, 1033
On a related note, does anyone else thing 6 speeds is kinda silly when you top out at 100MPH? Most gassers hit 100 in 2nd. (Although apparently some modern liter bikes will do 100MPH in 1st?!)
So does that mean people riding litre bikes are only using 1st and 2nd gear, or does that mean they are always riding way over the speed limit? Also a ninja 250 has a max top speed of 120ish mph why does it have a 6 speed? You can also use the Harley police cruiser as another bike that has a top speed of 105mph but uses a 6 speed too. :)

Tony Coiro
03 March 2012, 1043
Touché. :)

jazclrint
04 March 2012, 0023
Hey Toni, if you want to hear Brammo's reasons I recommend listening to my interview with Brian Wismann. It might make more sense. Unless, of course, you have already heard it.

Rumor mill has the Empulse out this summer. Maybe a month or two behind the Enertia Plus. But (and not rumor) the Enertia Plus will be made in Hungry at a pretty good rate, while the Empulse will be made at the factory in Oregon at not so fast a pace.

Brammofan
04 March 2012, 1705
One thing I've come to realize over the three or so years I've been an EV enthusiast: naysayers are always eager to state their opinions and share their conclusions, but not always so eager to share the basis of these conclusions or how they managed to discover some sort of secret insider information.
I've always been an unapologetic and transparent Brammo fan (hey, it's my moniker), so no surprises here: I am psyched about the Enertia Plus announcement and am looking forward to the news coming around the corner about the production version of the Empulse. Just like with the original roll-out of the Enertia and its critics who called it "vapor-ware," the chefs in Ashland are busy at work preparing a tasty serving of crow.

I'm not alone in my respect for Brammo. Polaris is a smart company who understands EVs, having purchased GEM and and Groupil. Last year, Polaris had someone on the board of a different manufacturer of electric motorcycles. Sometime in the middle of the year, however, Polaris did due diligence on Brammo and then made a significant investment of cash and resources with them. Draw your own conclusions.

teddillard
04 March 2012, 1744
I certainly hope so, Harry. If Brammo does not, at this point, deliver at least something, I can't see they have any credibility left whatsoever.

protomech
05 March 2012, 0904
I am pretty sure that the introduction of Zero's 2012 model line and current (relative) sales success, is the reason for Brammo's order deposit program at this time. They are trying to slow down Zero's sales while they ramp up production of the Enertia Plus at their factory in Europe. The word is that the Empulse will be built at their factory in Oregon. The first of those bikes will probably come off the assembly line late this year (that is just my guess).

Brammo has always maintained that preorder customers would be asked for a deposit three months prior to shipping their bike. I don't doubt that getting info out there is intended to give pause to some who were considering the Zero S; though with the price bump to $11k, I think a significant number of their preorder customers will give the Zero S strong consideration.

The games Zero plays with their nominal and maximum battery ratings makes a price comparison a little tricky. Imagine a hypothetical 6.2 kWh Zero S; given a 5.3 kWh $11500 S and a 7.9 kWh $14000 S, the 6.2 kWh bike would be around $12400.

The question customers have to ask is whether the Zero S advantages - significantly more power, slightly lighter weight, regen braking, longer full warranty - are worth the hypothetical $1400 delta between a Zero S 6.2 and the Enertia Plus 6.2, and then consider the non-quantitative factors and the actual shipping Zeros (regen braking or not, the 5.3 kWh S will probably offer less range than the 6.2 kWh Enertia Plus).

I think most people will buy the ZF9 Zero instead of the ZF6. Similarly, I think many people would opt for the Empulse if there was only a $3000 price delta. I think we will see the Empulse at a substantial price increase as well.



The Empulse Plus should compare in range with the ZF6 Zero S, although the Zero will have about a 15-mph higher top speed. I own a ZF9 (rated at 9 kWh) and it has a 114-mile range at urban speeds, but the actual range really depends upon the speed that you ride. I would say that if you ride 1/3 freeway, 1/3 expressway and 1/3 residential, you can expect a real-world range of around 60 +/- miles, depending upon hills and wind. I have had my Zero up to 85 mph and it does very well holding an 80 mph speed up a 6% freeway hill - while rapidly sucking electrons out of its battery pack.

Enertia Plus, even :>

Your 60 mile range matches pretty well with their "highway commuting" range specification.



So does that mean people riding litre bikes are only using 1st and 2nd gear, or does that mean they are always riding way over the speed limit? Also a ninja 250 has a max top speed of 120ish mph why does it have a 6 speed? You can also use the Harley police cruiser as another bike that has a top speed of 105mph but uses a 6 speed too. :)

The Ninja 250 might have a 120-mph speedometer, but I think it tops out around 90 mph.

1416 posts some thoughts on why Tesla pulled their two-speed transmission and why Brammo is therefore using a six speed transmission in the Empulse:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1001.msg7300#msg7300

teddillard
05 March 2012, 0939
I sincerely don't want to appear to be Brammo bashing, but Brammo has "always maintained" a lot of things which have not actually happened (as graciously as I can put it).

Anything you can say about the delivery dates of any of their product has got to simply be speculation until Brammo actually releases something. I still can't fathom the strategy of announcing a product (the Enertia Plus) before going into production with it. It's a classic strategy of a competitor to stagnate a market if they're a month or so away from releasing a product- you see it all the time in the digital camera market. The problem is, Brammo did it to themselves. Who in their right mind will buy an Enertia when they know there's an Enertia Plus obsoleting it in a few months? ...except, in this case, years. Not only did they kill the competition's business (until people realized they'd be waiting an indeterminate amount of time for the "new product") but they killed their own. I'm dying for someone to explain to me the wisdom of that.

After everything I've read, and everyone I've talked to (and trust me, I've talked to a lot of people), and reading the incessant social media noise coming out of Brammo, I'm to the point of just concluding Brammo will release something when they release something, regardless of what they say. IF, and I don't say this at all lightly, they release anything at all.

I'd love to have what appears to be the blind faith Harry and others have that Brammo will release something, and it will be awesome, but I don't. At all... at this point.

I also, frankly, take a whole lot of what Brammo says with a grain of salt about their bikes and the reasoning behind the design, much as I respect Brian Wismann. I am completely convinced that the Empulse transmission was considered as a solution to a problem with motor overheating, based on a few conversations I've had with a few people I can't name. Whether you choose to believe that or not, it doesn't matter to me... but, correct me if I'm wrong, the actual specs of the Empulse have yet to be released.

If you've followed my comments here on the industry, you know I'm loathe to make negative comments on anyone who I feel is fighting the good fight, but I've reached the end of my patience with Brammo, and a lot of people I've talked to have as well. One good reason is that, when companies like Honda and KTM decide they're ready to jump into this market, anyone who doesn't have good solid footing (regardless of their investors or parent companies) is going to get blown clear out of the water. I think Zero gets that and is trying to come to market with an awesome product, and I think Brammo is pretty aware of it too and crapping their pants.

Sorry, too, Harry if I don't buy the "Polaris is a smart company... " line of justifying your opinions. If I got a tattoo for every company that some big smart company invested in, then completely dismantled, I'd look like dice. :D

As long as I'm probably going to get bitch-slapped for this post, I'm going to go ahead and say it. I've ridden the Enertia (for a week, and wrote a lengthy review on it) and honestly don't think much of it from a motorcycle-enthusiast point of view. It's honestly more of a scooter than a motorcycle. This is precisely why it seemed so perfect that they were developing the Empulse. They needed it to compete in the market. I've also ridden the ZeroS, and that, IMO, is a motorcycle. I have not ridden the new Zero.

OK, sitting down now... :O

Allen_okc
05 March 2012, 0957
OK, sitting down now... :O

:O its about time Ted, i thought you where going to suck all the air out of the room, as Teds slaps me upside the head...

;) my thought is i have to agree with Ted, but i would like to further add these two elements...

A) folks dont like to wait, especially if they are impulse buyers like myself...

B) if brammo can hang on, this summers gasoline prices will convince the wasteful to start thinking more towards to efficiency and avoid the high gas prices...

protomech
05 March 2012, 1016
I also, frankly, take a whole lot of what Brammo says with a grain of salt about their bikes and the reasoning behind the design, much as I respect Brian Wismann. I am completely convinced that the Empulse transmission was considered as a solution to a problem with motor overheating, based on a few conversations I've had with a few people I can't name. Whether you choose to believe that or not, it doesn't matter to me... but, correct me if I'm wrong, the actual specs of the Empulse have yet to be released.

Easy enough to test once the Empulse ships. Or if, I suppose : P Just put the bike in a gear where max rpm is a bit over 100 mph and ride it to 100 mph. See what happens.

I'd give Brammo better than 50/50 odds of releasing the Enertia Plus in June as scheduled now, but I agree that Brammo has done an awful lot of stalling and talking about products that they're not delivering. Both Brammo and Zero will need to be well-entrenched once Honda et al get in the EV moto game or they will not survive.

teddillard
05 March 2012, 1031
:O its about time Ted...

lol! Sorry, you know how I get.


Easy enough to test ...

...and I would love nothing more than to have the opportunity to run that test. But, in spite of what Brammo has said publicly, and even privately, I was told quite pointedly that the reason the bike was delayed was because of overheating, and the reason the transmission was adopted was to address that problem. It was, IN NO WAY, substantiated and it should be taken as pure gossip by anyone reading this, but I have to take it on the strength of my source, and that, coupled with the fact that it simply fits with what have been substantiated facts, is what I believe. Take it for what it's worth.

Before someone gets on and tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll be the first to admit what I do know is from trying to sort through all the internet noise and personal conversations I have had. If these kinds of statements or opinions distress Harry or Brammo, there's one simple way to eliminate them.

Show us the meat.

If I hear or read one more Brammo representative (and, despite your protestations, Harry, I consider that to include you) say "We WISH we could tell you more, but..." I think my head is going to essplode.

(...getting up off the floor and sitting down again now after Allen slaps me out of my chair :D)

ZoomSmith
05 March 2012, 1033
B) if brammo can hang on, this summers gasoline prices will convince the wasteful to start thinking more towards to efficiency and avoid the high gas prices...

Anybody that was hanging out on El Moto v1.0 can recall, we said that about $4/gal. High gas prices generate a little hype, and interest level in EV's raises, but I seriously doubt folks will be lining up to buy Leafs & Zeros.

In the end, it's still a very small niche market and may take years to mature. I really hope Brammo can be a player, but with every empty "press-release", my hopes are fading.

Allen_okc
05 March 2012, 1055
does the EV motorcycle have to do over 100mph???

they should be after distance not speed - anything over 65mph will get the police on your tail...

Allen_okc
05 March 2012, 1057
:D Hey Ted - love ya man...

Richard230
05 March 2012, 1649
I was impressed that Zero managed to put the 2012 models on the showroom floor only a few months after announcing their new model line. And they actually beat their estimated delivery schedule by a month. I wasn't really expecting that, based upon my impression of the history of the EV industry, including Zero.

teddillard
06 March 2012, 1251
Apparently Harlan at Hollywood Electrics agrees with me too:
Purchase a Zero Motorcycle from Hollywood Electrics before March 31, 2012 and tell us what you're waiting for. If those bikes begin delivery to customers before October 31, 2012, we'll give you up to $1000 cash back!* We want 2012 to be The Year of the Electric Motorcycle and don't want you to miss this opportunity to own the world's best-selling electric motorcycle!

...talk about putting your money where your mouth is. Hat's off to the man...

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Still-waiting-for-vaporware--We-ll-give-you--1000-cash-back-on-your-Zero-Motorcycle-.html?soid=1105133109120&aid=FW0DOlNk9x8

Tony Coiro
06 March 2012, 1356
Ballsy move by Zero. I love it. :D

teddillard
06 March 2012, 1422
I'm not sure how much was Zero and how much was Harlan, but my ten bucks says it was his idea first. :D

protomech
06 March 2012, 1618
Yeah. This is a Hollywood Electrics thing, not a Zero thing..

The level of ballsy depends on the offer extended, of course; he could be offering customers a sucker's bet ; ) But I think it's safe to say he'll see some increased business due to the offer..

teddillard
06 March 2012, 1819
Considering that $1k is a considerable share of his margin, I'd say it's pretty majorly ballsy. Unless, of course, he knows something we don't. :D

jazclrint
07 March 2012, 1745
He certainly thinks he does. I suspect he feels a bit hung out to dry by Brammo. I worry he's going too far in the anti-Brammo direction and is going to burn a bridge that he could have just left unmaintained. Personally $1000 isn't going to be enough to console when I get my wheels ripped off by an Empulse because I couldn't wait a few more months. But, I am much more patient than most people, and have only been on the waiting list for a few months, compared to a few years like most people. However, if he gambles right, he'll look really smart for a few months until racing season hits and everyone goes back to "Zero who?" mode.

teddillard
07 March 2012, 1750
oh puLEEze. (...or as my wife says, "puLEEze, bitch") You've clearly been drinking the Brammo koolaid. "Zero who?" Where did you get that? Zero has been a serious contender since day one, and has been delivering product. Racing season doesn't mean crap if you have product to sell, (or... don't have product to sell) and Zero is proving that right now.

Due respect, but Harlan has a lot more than what "he thinks" at stake. He's not throwing a $1k "bet" around on a whim. I have no doubt he's doing it based on some good, sound information that he got from his fairly huge body of industry connections.

He's got a remarkably successful business against all odds. He knows his market, and is putting his money where his mouth is... which Brammo certainly hasn't done. He has to. He's a retailer. I know Harlan, I've had several "conversations" with him over the last few years. He's a smart guy and knows how to sell this stuff. He's not posting drivel on the internet, he's trying to pay his bills by running a business... and you don't do that by making decisions based on "feeling burned".

As far as burning bridges, if he's the dealer (which he is, frankly, for the entire US market) and he's selling more product than anyone else, then it's Brammo who wants to play with him, not the other way around.

Sorry if I'm overstating this, but this offer alone has me convinced Brammo has nothing - certainly nothing by October. By the way, say Harlan's a little wrong and Brammo comes out with a bike in, say, September. What company in their right mind is going to release a "superbike" that time of year in the North American market?

But I'd gladly eat crow, if Brammo serves it up.

BTW, how do you know when your Empulse shows up, (:p) you're gonna be ripping wheels off with it? Have you seen some actual real specs? I haven't.

yankee1919
07 March 2012, 2041
Hello All,

As the newbie here I can deffinetly agree that Harlan is a good guy. Business is business, we are still in the beginning of a great transportation evolution. We should exam all aspects of the industry and try to support one another.
BTY I am enjoying my Pyramid Hefeweizen (on my 4th or 5th) from the local market 12 pack@11.99, can't beat that although I had to jam it into my back pack so the local boozer wouldn't ask me for one.:rolleyes:

teddillard
08 March 2012, 0430
Here's another scenario. I know Harlan wants to sell Brammo. I'm fairly certain Harlan's been frustrated that he can't sell Brammo, first because of the Best Buy deal, then because they had no product besides the older model Enertia. I know if I was in his position I would be.

So, let's say Harlan goes to Brammo and says, "WTF guys, give me bikes!" They say, "we're gonna get you bikes by August" and Harlan says, "yeah right". ... so to make the deal a little sweeter, they (Brammo) say, "hey, we know we've screwed up your sales, how about we make a deal. For every bike we give you before October, we give you $1k off the dealer net, and fulfill the orders for the West Coast through you?"

Harlan gets Zero sales now, for every one of those customers that he refunds $1k to he probably has 3 Brammo sales for that he's making an extra $1k, some that he has orders for, some that he wouldn't otherwise get. Net gain: Hollywood Electrics. Crow eating: Ted.

I know. I love fairy tales. Unicorns, jetpacks and fuel-cell motorcycles too. :rolleyes:

Let me put it this way. If Brammo didn't do this, they should.

teddillard
08 March 2012, 0640
but... A far more likely scenario is that Zero sees the opportunity to buy up market share. They've got to be pleased with the sales at Hollywood, and figure that it's time to poach Brammo pre-sales as much as possible. Every Zero they sell gives them more leverage, and, whether they're rebating the full $1k or a share of it with Harlan, they are thinking it's worth taking a hit (since they've made a good number of full-retail sales to date) only on the -chance- that they'll have to pay up.

This could be funded by an investor with some imagination and balls, Zero management, or even an insurance program. (One of the biggest NE furniture retailers did a huge rebate plan if the Red Sox swept a few seasons ago. They had a policy written to cover expenses if they had to pay up. They didn't. :D ...and they made a crap-ton of money on it.) It could be simply a power move by Zero based on their sense of their sales and timing. Or, it could be a response to some information they've got about Brammo's production - which is my suspicion, and backs up my opinion that Brammo ain't coming out with anything this summer.

Or some combination of the whole mess.

Before you tell me this is all far-fetched, I've seen all of these scenarios in the digital photography industry - a very similar situation of emerging technology and breakthrough products. Big players like Nikon, Canon, Epson, as well as small shops like PhaseOne, Imacon, Leaf and Betterlight. They all are facing the same challenges - to get the sales in a market where they don't always have product.

protomech
08 March 2012, 0753
Sorry if I'm overstating this, but this offer alone has me convinced Brammo has nothing - certainly nothing by October.

I would get details on the offer before you convince yourself one way or the other. That's all I'll say about that : P


By the way, say Harlan's a little wrong and Brammo comes out with a bike in, say, September. What company in their right mind is going to release a "superbike" that time of year in the North American market?

But I'd gladly eat crow, if Brammo serves it up.

Me too. I hope they come out with the Empulse soon, and I hope they fix their non-existent preorder customer relations.


BTW, how do you know when your Empulse shows up, (:p) you're gonna be ripping wheels off with it? Have you seen some actual real specs? I haven't.

If Brammo doesn't deliver a bike that's substantially faster than the Zero S, then they may as well not deliver at all. Maybe that's what they're doing now, who knows.. but before seeing real specs, I would expect them to deliver a substantially faster bike, even if the cost is higher.

Brammo still plans to sell the Enertia 3kwh at $8k (88v / 24 35 ah cells?) and the Enertia Plus (same bike, 88v / 24 70 ah cells?) at $11k. I would expect the Empulse hardware (big motor, J1772 / 3kw charger, IET) to add at LEAST $2k to the cost (plus assembly in Oregon instead of Hungary), so if a 6kwh Empulse is released it should be $13-14k. A 10 kWh Empulse should be in the ballpark of $17-18k.

Here's a question. Suppose Brammo has a 6.2 kWh Empulse at $14k, same price as the 7.9 kWh S at $14k. More power, higher top speed, faster charges, less range. What do you think people would buy?

magicsmoke
08 March 2012, 0807
For what it's worth, I see Flextronics (Brammo's manufacturer) has teamed up with Sevcon, albeit the Singapore office. Hope nobody was banking on a controller bottleneck :)

http://news.flextronics.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=235792&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1670725&highlight=

teddillard
08 March 2012, 0811
I would get details on the offer before you convince yourself one way or the other. That's all I'll say about that : P

The details on the offer are on the link I posted, sir. Here it is again:
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Still-waiting-for-vaporware--We-ll-give-you--1000-cash-back-on-your-Zero-Motorcycle-.html?soid=1105133109120&aid=FW0DOlNk9x8

Beyond the usual "some restrictions apply" disclaimer, it's a pretty simple offer.



Here's a question. Suppose Brammo has a 6.2 kWh Empulse at $14k, same price as the 7.9 kWh S at $14k. More power, higher top speed, faster charges, less range. What do you think people would buy?

The product that exists. :p

Richard230
08 March 2012, 0825
If nothing else, Harlan's offer has generated a lot of speculation and discussion about this subject on El Moto and the Brammo forums. It definitely keeps the old brain cells working and fingers loosened up. :(

protomech
08 March 2012, 0837
The details on the offer are on the link I posted, sir. Here it is again:
[url]Beyond the usual "some restrictions apply" disclaimer

Yes, those are the ones I mean. They may not be the typical "must be US resident, 18 years or older" restrictions .. but rather fundamental details of the offer. Otherwise.. why not tell them you're waiting for a Zero S. Boom, Zero S is being delivered. Boom, $1000 off your Zero S..

Hollywood Electrics is not making the fundamental details of the offer public. And that's fine. But I think you're making some assumptions about what the offer is.


The product that exists. :p

Obviously only one of those bikes exist as a product you can buy in the near term. It's a hypothetical exercise based upon an actual shipping bike and a hypothetical price point for a bike that publicly exists in concept form only.

That said, I'm interested in actual answers to the question, not a dodge : P

teddillard
08 March 2012, 0845
I've put in a request for more information on those details. I'd be shocked if it's more than simply documentation of the deposit, etc, to avoid just the example you point out, but whatever, we'll see what they tell me.

I'll sit down, then, and let you folks enjoy speculating on what you'd buy if it emerges from the vapors. :rolleyes:

(Far from a dodge, it's simply the end of my patience with claims and speculation. What would I buy if I could buy a cheaper bike that was faster and made chicks throw themselves at me, ripping their clothes off? I dunno... can I look like a young Mel Gibson, too?)

protomech
08 March 2012, 0914
I would be interested to see what you find.

I would say there's 4 levels of surety in ebikes:

1. Shipping product. 2012 Zero S is here now.
2. Final specifications, bikes in final production form undergoing testing. Relatively firm shipping date. 2012 Zero S was here in November. Enertia Plus (June 2012), KTM Freeride E (End of 2012 .. sorta) are here now.
3. Bike publicly exists in functional but non-production form. Tentative specs are available, vague promises of a launch window. Empulse, Lito Sora (maybe), Evolve Lithium are here now IMO.
4. Bikes that make chicks tear their clothing off and throw themselves at you. Rendered, theoretical, or concept display-only bikes go here. Zero's supersport bike (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/05/09/electric-sportbike-coming-soon-from-zero/), Mission R streetbike, Honda's RC-E, BMW's various electric bikes are here IMO.

#3 and #4 cover a wide and partially overlapping range, I'll agree. I think the Lito Sora is in the overlapping region, I think the Empulse is not. Not everything makes it from step #3 to step #2, of course.. and it's possible the Empulse may not.

teddillard
08 March 2012, 0926
Well, I see Harlan's been lurking this morning, so I'll invite him to answer the questions on the terms and conditions here.

teddillard
08 March 2012, 1125
Harlan just sent me a lengthy response. I'm not sure how much of it he wants public, but he's on the road and I figure he'll get on and speak for himself, but the short answer to the terms and conditions is that they are not very complicated, and in no way change what the deal appears to be, or my opinion of the deal.

From all I've been able to gather, he's just flat out calling bull**** on vaporware out of simple love of electric motorcycles, and that's the beginning and end of it. And god love him if that's the bottom line.

seanece
08 March 2012, 1347
4. Bikes that make chicks tear their clothing off and throw themselves at you. Rendered, theoretical, or concept display-only bikes go here. Zero's supersport bike, Mission R streetbike, Honda's RC-E, BMW's various electric bikes are here IMO.

Sorry Proto, but #2 and #3 be damned. We need to concentrate on getting #4 to #1!! Priorities my friend. (I joke, but in all honesty sexified vehicles do indeed sell or at least get a brand noticed which would allow for entry level vehicle sales)

BTW, keep up the good selling Harlan and reporting Ted. Game on!

harlan
08 March 2012, 1634
First of all, I want to preface this by saying that I want people to ride electric motorcycles. Electric motorcycles are my passion, I ride them everyday and do everything I can to help promote them and get more asses onto electric motorcycle seats.

With that being said, I think there are several companies that are misleading customers and I don't think they are helping the electric motorcycle industry move forward by stalling buyers with false promises. Contrary to what most of you are saying, this is not an anti-anyone campaign, this is a pro-electric motorcycle campaign. I would like nothing more than for everybody to ride an electric motorcycle, no matter what brand they choose.

Hollywood Electrics was the Number One Zero Dealer in 2011 and we have already sold more Zeros in 2012 than we did in all of 2011. This is not a desperate move on our behalf, it is an attempt to knock some sense into those who have who are clinging to blind faith. The State Incentives won't last forever, nor will the financing promotions that we are offering through the end of the month. Now is a prime opportunity to buy an electric motorcycle, take advantage of it and let's make 2012 the Year of the Electric Motorcycle!

The promotion we are offering is simple. We're wagering that these vaporware bikes will not begin delivery to customers before October 31, 2012 and even if they do begin delivery, they won't be the bikes as currently advertised. If we're wrong, we will happily give the customer $1000 cash back. We don't require any proof of deposit or reservation since not every manufacturer is doing that. There will be a formal agreement signed at the time of purchase with the details of the bike the customer is waiting for.

I hope that answers your questions.

protomech
08 March 2012, 1904
First of all, I want to preface this by saying that I want people to ride electric motorcycles. Electric motorcycles are my passion, I ride them everyday and do everything I can to help promote them and get more asses onto electric motorcycle seats.

With that being said, I think there are several companies that are misleading customers and I don't think they are helping the electric motorcycle industry move forward by stalling buyers with false promises. Contrary to what most of you are saying, this is not an anti-anyone campaign, this is a pro-electric motorcycle campaign. I would like nothing more than for everybody to ride an electric motorcycle, no matter what brand they choose.

Agreed. I don't think Brammo's cone of silence is helping them, and it's certainly not helping anyone else.


The promotion we are offering is simple. We're wagering that these vaporware bikes will not begin delivery to customers before October 31, 2012 and even if they do begin delivery, they won't be the bikes as currently advertised. If we're wrong, we will happily give the customer $1000 cash back. We don't require any proof of deposit or reservation since not every manufacturer is doing that. There will be a formal agreement signed at the time of purchase with the details of the bike the customer is waiting for.

Brammo's pricing and specifications for the Empulse now are quite outdated. "won't be delivered period" and "won't be delivered as currently advertised" are two very different statements, and the problem I have with Ted's take is that he was convinced because he thought the assurance was the former.

I'd like to see Brammo deliver final specifications for the bike, and I'd like to see them deliver the bike. And if they're not going to deliver, then I wish they'd come clean with their preorder would-be customers. If this promotion puts a little heat under them to get final specs and launch dates out, so much the better ; )

If anyone expects a $10k Empulse 6.0 (or $14k 10.0) after the Enertia Plus was bumped from $9k to $11k, they're going to be quite sad when Brammo does deliver final specifications.

teddillard
09 March 2012, 0415
Thanks for that Harlan. It's good to know why you're doing it. (I still would like to hear how, but that's just me. :rolleyes: )


... the problem I have with Ted's take ...

To be clear, my "take" is I'll believe it when I see it. That's the beginning and end of it.

As of the last week or so, I'm not listening to what Brammo says anymore, because I don't trust it. I'm not believing the "insiders" or "experts" on the forums because they're not offering anything based on fact or that can be documented. That was your first comment that I responded to regarding what Brammo has said in the past, and, god help me, the only point I really wanted to make, but apparently I shouldn't post while caffeinated. :D

A couple of points of order though. I'd really appreciate it personally if you'd take a minute to update your profile or introduce yourself to the group, since you're relatively new. We had a thread asking for this a while back, and beyond just being polite, in this blossoming Zero vs Brammo climate that's appearing in a lot of the forums I'd like to know who's opinions I'm reading. (A Zero representative had been posting on the Brammo forum without identifying himself as such - a move I thought was totally bush league, since his posts were fairly critical of Brammo.) I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything, but the sense of the group was to invite new members to post an introduction, so here's your invite.

Second, I sincerely hope this is not the start of a Zero-Brammo brand war here. I think we can all agree, we're all about any and all electric motorcycles hitting the market, as Harlan stated. I'm sorry if my statements can be construed as anti-anyone, that is not how they are intended. As I've said a number of times, I'd like nothing more than to see and test a production Empulse.

protomech
09 March 2012, 0709
To be clear, my "take" is I'll believe it when I see it. That's the beginning and end of it.


Sorry if I'm overstating this, but this offer alone has me convinced Brammo has nothing - certainly nothing by October. By the way, say Harlan's a little wrong and Brammo comes out with a bike in, say, September. What company in their right mind is going to release a "superbike" that time of year in the North American market?

But I'd gladly eat crow, if Brammo serves it up.

Emphasis added. My point is that the public details of the offer is "Some-company-who-COULD-be-Brammo ships by X or $1000 back", you ran with that, and then later Harlan reveals that the "some restrictions apply" is "Some-company-who-COULD-be-Brammo ships as originally advertised by X".

I think (hope?) they'll ship by October. But not as originally advertised - and I hope Harlan's offer knocks some sense into anyone that believes they will ship as originally advertised :p Until you get further details, the offer does appear to indicate that they will not ship at all by October.

If they don't, I'll be eating crow.. and I'll have seven months on my ZF9 at that point.

Brammo certainly has done a poor job communicating as a company. Brammoforum folks have been chewing over the little tidbits Brian Wismann drops on various forums, since there's been very little in the way of official communication from them. Taking the "disbelieve until proof" stance wrt the Empulse is perfectly reasonable IMO.


A couple of points of order though. I'd really appreciate it personally if you'd take a minute to update your profile or introduce yourself to the group, since you're relatively new. We had a thread asking for this a while back, and beyond just being polite, in this blossoming Zero vs Brammo climate that's appearing in a lot of the forums I'd like to know who's opinions I'm reading. (A Zero representative had been posting on the Brammo forum without identifying himself as such - a move I thought was totally bush league, since his posts were fairly critical of Brammo.) I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything, but the sense of the group was to invite new members to post an introduction, so here's your invite.

Fair enough - I've started a thread here (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2113-EV-enthusiast-in-US-deep-south&p=27033#post27033).


Second, I sincerely hope this is not the start of a Zero-Brammo brand war here. I think we can all agree, we're all about any and all electric motorcycles hitting the market, as Harlan stated. I'm sorry if my statements can be construed as anti-anyone, that is not how they are intended. As I've said a number of times, I'd like nothing more than to see and test a production Empulse.

Same. I'd like to see Zero stop the deceptive capacity figures and clearly state a 70 mph freeway range figure, and I'd like to see Brammo release real information (as they've done for the Enertia Plus) for the Empulse or just say it'll be delayed until X for Y reasons. I'm a fan of EVs in general, and that means I want to see both Brammo and Zero do well.

teddillard
09 March 2012, 0822
yeah... ... that was the coffee talkin'. :o

BrammoBrian
09 March 2012, 0913
Ted - I've been posting at Elmoto before you joined and contributed what I felt was honest and valuable information (much of which was lost during the v1.0 crash) and even had a nice exchange with you about your cross country trip that you were hoping to have Brammo sponsor. I don't know exactly what we've done TO YOU to elicit such a negative response, but it certainly wasn't intentional. I've stopped posting here due to this negativity as well as at least one other member that somehow claims to know the inner workings of Brammo despite having no involvement with us. I've lived through multiple "vaporware" charges, first with the Brammo built Ariel Atom, then the Enertia, then the Enertia TTR, then the Empulse RR, and now the Empulse production bike. History has taught me that naysayers will stick around until the product is delivered (which it always is) and then go bother somebody else. I'm actually wondering if I'm just banging my head against the wall as I type this.

I joined this forum as an elmoto enthusiast, having purchased with my own money, an early Enertia off the production line. However, I have always made it clear what my affiliation with the company is. I concur that the anonymous posting of employees on forums is a very bad thing and jeopardizes the free exchange of knowledge that occurs on this forum and others. This has been discouraged at Brammo since the early days, and now with Peter Anton on board to watch over our social media presence, there is little to no possibility of a Brammo employee anonymously posting on any forum having to do with elmotos.

Brammo has never made an attack on Zero's products or customers because at the core we share the same belief (if he truly believes it) as Harlan. We want electric motorcycles to be successful and the market to grow for everyone. Brammo certainly can't do that alone, and neither can Zero whether they care to admit it or not. The production delay on the Empulse was to bring a better product to market. I applaud Zero for what they’ve done and how quickly they’ve done it. I’d like to test ride a new Zero S. If you like Zero products, then support them by buying their bike not by bashing their “competitor”. Likewise for our products. Nothing about what either company is trying to do is easy from the production challenges to the fundraising. A “brand war” that erupts before the market emerges would be about the dumbest thing that could happen since FIM and TTXGP decided they should run separate championships…

BrammoBrian
09 March 2012, 0916
BTW - Can someone PM me about how to update my signature? Haven't been able to figure it out since the v1.0 crash...

Nuts & Volts
09 March 2012, 0918
.....Same. I'd like to see Zero stop the deceptive capacity figures and clearly state a 70 mph freeway range figure, and I'd like to see Brammo release real information (as they've done for the Enertia Plus) for the Empulse or just say it'll be delayed until X for Y reasons. I'm a fan of EVs in general, and that means I want to see both Brammo and Zero do well.

What do you mean by deceptive capacity figures? They straight up give you want you need in my opinion. Nominal capacity is calculated with V_nominal*Ah*#cells and Max capacity uses V_charged*Ah*#cells. I haven't seen figures like these posted from other brands...if you do some digging you can also figure out what cells they have and do the math to figure out the un-rounded numbers

The range figure is EPA and is a standard that everyone should use. It may not be real life figures but that isn't Zero's or any other manufacture fault. The EPA numbers give you simple number to compare to other machines or even your own gas bike.

Nuts & Volts
09 March 2012, 0932
BTW - Can someone PM me about how to update my signature? Haven't been able to figure it out since the v1.0 crash...

Sent

teddillard
09 March 2012, 0941
Sorry you take this personally, Brian, and as I've told you, and stated here, I have nothing but the highest respect for you and appreciate all you've done to help me along the way. If memory serves, you even exchanged some emails with my son, who is just finishing up a senior HS electric moped project.

If I haven't made myself clear, I apologize, but in no way to I feel like I'm bashing or attacking Brammo or that Brammo has "done something" to me. In fact, in my own little world I feel like I'm trying to do Brammo a favor. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this impatience, or has stated it publicly. There are a whole lot of very responsible people who've stated it privately.

I'd be happy to take this offline if you'd like to discuss it.

As far as this comment goes, though:


... the product is delivered (which it always is)

...I'm sorry, but as far as the Brammo product line goes, you have one product (the Enertia) out of a line of 10 that you're delivering. I appreciate your commitment to Brammo, but for where I sit that's pretty much an unrealistic statement.

With respect, I'll say it again. All Brammo needs to do to eliminate all this drivel is to come out with some cold, hard facts.

Nuts & Volts
09 March 2012, 1002
If I may, I believe the main disconnect here is that the main issue is not the engineering (of the product) being performed, but the marketing (of the product). Some people don't understand why they don't have the product they were told they would have awhile ago. It's hard to erase marketing that has already been stated.

From what I have seen thus far, Brammo and Zero have taken different approaches to marketing the engineering they have down. This is what this argument/discussion seems to be about. Unfortunately it is very hard to express the level of engineering and design happening with printed marketing. This can leave a sour feeling in everyone's mind.

teddillard
09 March 2012, 1006
Exactly. Marketing.* I cannot comment on the engineering because I simply don't know what it is, do I?

*Now I expect I'm going to get an email from Adrian... :O

protomech
09 March 2012, 1012
Most other brands list a nominal capacity specification - to the best of my ability to dig up (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1053.msg7005#msg7005). Tesla has done this with the Roadster, Nissan has done this with the leaf, Brammo has done this with the Enertia and Enertia Plus. I don't know about Chevy or Ford's Focus EV.

Zero claims "Maximum capacity tends to be the electric vehicle industry’s choice for reporting the maximum amount of energy that can be stored in a vehicle’s power pack." You can't store 9kWh in a 66V (nominal) 120Ah pack, and I don't know anyone else in the EV industry BUT Zero that uses maximum capacity as the headline capacity.

Maybe I'm haring off in the wrong direction, but it seems like a useless metric to report. Terrible analogy: it's like Ford telling you that you have a 15 gallon fuel tank, or a 17 gallon fuel tank if you measure the floorprint at the largest point and multiply by the height at the tallest point and assume a ovoid cylinder.

The city range is EPA UDDS, and that's fine. I have no problem with that. I don't have a problem with their highway commute figure either BUT I'd like to see the steady 70 mph figures explicitly listed as well. The figures are basically a city and a combined driving schedule range, and some people and articles are reporting them as if they were city and straight highway ranges.

I think the 2012 Zeros are a huge step up from the 2011 bikes or from any other shipping bike. I like them enough that I bought one : P But I think billing the ZF9 bike as a "9 kWh 63 mile highway" bike is deceptive - and while their site is careful to avoid mentioning ANY capacity metric beyond the spec page, they're happy to link to articles (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/news.php) that do so (or just report the city range without comment).

http://www.gizmag.com/zero-motorcycles-2012-electric-motorcycle/20432/
"Zero S .. will be available in 6 or 9 kWh configuration .. this translates to .. 43 miles (69 km) and 63 miles (101 km) respectively when traveling at highway speeds."

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/11/08/zero-electric-motorcycles-get-100-mile-range/
"The Zero S .. are available in a 6 kilowatt-hour or 9 kilowatt-hour batteries, giving the S making [sic] a range of 76 or 114 miles, according to EPA measurements."

The S is the first somewhat mainstream production emoto that can safely travel on the freeway. That's a big deal. Reporting the most favorable range without critique, or reporting a mix of highway and city riding as highway riding only, is bad reporting at best and disingenuous at worst. It doesn't help the emoto industry when someone hops on Zero S and gets 40 miles of 70 mph riding and wonders if the bike is broken. And I think that's what Zero is encouraging through choosing not to explicitly report the highway range specification.. even if it's a MIC standard that they helped collaborate on.

I get about 50 mpg on my gas bike, regardless of whether I'm doing 35-45 mph riding or 60-70 mph riding. We're used to fuel economy that varies a little based upon conditions but not hugely so. Emotos have a factor of 3 (or more) energy consumption at city speeds vs highway speeds. Zero has addressed this in the past (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/range/) with some of (IMO) the best range education information out there. I wish they'd update this for the 2012 bikes, and I wish they would report city, highway, and combined range metrics instead of just city and combined.

Also, I would like a pony.

Nuts & Volts
09 March 2012, 1038
protomech,

I see where you are coming from. I just wanted to make sure you weren't making some odd connections or odd math. But you definitely know what you're doin :D

Warren
09 March 2012, 1052
Here is my reading of Zero's claim. For "highway" mileage, they are figuring half the distance, 31.5 miles at the "city" rate. If we assume they are claiming 9 kWh hot off the charger, and that they are running to 87.8% DoD, or 6.9 kWh used, that is 69.3 Wh/mile for half the ride. That leaves 5.7 kWh for the 31.5 miles at 70 mph. That is 181.5 Wh/ mile at 70 mph. So if they just figured the distance for 7.9 kWh, at 70 mph, they'd show 43.5 miles. This would sound less impressive, but would be believable numbers for an unfaired roadbike.

Warren
09 March 2012, 1119
And with a dustbin fairing, you could get that down to more like 100 Wh/mi. Now we are talking usable highway range.

This post was to get Ted's blood pressure up. :-)

teddillard
09 March 2012, 1128
:p

mechanic
09 March 2012, 1410
Happy to be a sleeping dog but some statements are like a kick in the ribs!

Sorry but I have to call BS on this.


the product is delivered (which it always is)

Let’s look at Bramscher’s last four business ventures;

- The Rogue Super car- Many, many promises- EPIC Fail (never even turned a wheel)
- The Atom Ariel business- Gone
- The Carbon Fiber manufacturing business- Fail
- The Brammo Motorcycle (10’s of millions invested, 6+ models promised, 1 delivered)- ugly, sold < 50, Failing

Let’s look at announcements/plans

- Deal with Best Buy- EPIC Fail
- Deal with Flextronics- not relevant and not functioning
- New corporate HQ (2 new buildings, test track)- poorest use of funds imaginable
- 6 speed gear box- marketing smoke and mirrors that is a technical embarrassment
- Worst of all- standing firm that the Enertia “scooter” is capable of freeway speed/range vehicle (almost killed someone) EPIC FAILURE

Let’s look at the positives
- More tweets than any other start-up
- Err… that’s it… O wait there are the Brammo Babes (a desperate act of improved self worth and blatant confidence inspiring tactic by the big man himself. Must make all the teams wives proud that Brammo’s greatest publicity accomplishment to date was to hire some models for a few hours)

protomech
09 March 2012, 1438
Let’s look at Bramscher’s last four business ventures;

Wow. Personal attack much? Where's your emoto company?


- The Rogue Super car- Many, many promises- EPIC Fail (never even turned a wheel)
- The Atom Ariel business- Gone
- The Carbon Fiber manufacturing business- Fail
- The Brammo Motorcycle (10’s of millions invested, 6+ models promised, 1 delivered)- ugly, sold < 50, Failing

Not familiar with Rogue history beyond selling the Rogue name to Nissan paid for the e-motos.
Brammo was only involved with the US Ariel Atom distribution, which is now handled by TMI (http://www.arielatom.com/).
The CF manufacturing business is news to me.
I'm still waiting (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule-....&p=25705&viewfull=1#post25705) for a source for the < 50 bikes sold. There are 20 enertia owners listed on the brammo owners map - I'd be surprised if >40% of all bikes sold were accounted for on one forum. Even so: Brammo basically sold the bikes at $12k for 6 months (surprisingly not huge sales), for < 1 year at $8k, then announced the Enertia Plus at $9k and effectively killed the remainder of the Enertia sales.

Harlan @ Hollywood Electrics claims they've sold more 2012 Zeros in the last two months than they sold 2011 Zeros in all of last year. If his sales are an accurate representation of Zero's sales as a whole, then the 2011 bikes weren't exactly selling an order of magnitude better than your Enertia claim.

The emoto industry is still in its infancy, with very little opportunity for people to see the bikes in person or order them from a local dealer. Sales will grow over time, but it's an open question what will happen once the established OEMs show up.

There were some early reports (http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news--general-news/electric-bikes---the-brammo-enertia/1085.html) of (very high) performance from Brammo when the Enertia was under development, but I'm not aware of Brammo every claiming a maximum speed beyond 60 mph for the shipping Enertia. Their range guidance (as of shipping iirc) has been 40 miles city / 30 miles suburban / 20 miles high speed commuting. Nathan Abbott's accident (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/the-short-strange-trip-of-nathan-abbott-a-cautionary-tale/) was a brave / foolish adventure, but it was his. I don't believe Brammo misrepresented the top speed or range of the Enertia to Nathan - but why don't you ask him if he feels like Brammo duped him?


Let’s look at announcements/plans

- Deal with Best Buy- EPIC Fail
- Deal with Flextronics- not relevant and not functioning
- New corporate HQ (2 new buildings, test track)- poorest use of funds imaginable
- 6 speed gear box- marketing smoke and mirrors that is a technical embarrassment
- Worst of all- standing firm that the Enertia “scooter” is capable of freeway speed/range vehicle (almost killed someone) EPIC FAILURE

Agree that Brammo has flailed around with distribution plans, from Best Buy to HD to independent dealers. I think their partnership with Polaris will prove to be very useful once they're actually selling bikes.

The Enertia Plus will be manufactured by Flextronics in Hungary.

I'm curious what information you have that shows the IET to be marketing smoke and mirrors or a technical embarrassment. I've posted on the brammoforum several times (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=806.msg5099#msg5099) regarding IET's performance potential (despite whatever drawbacks or compromises it may bring). IET gives a good balance between low-speed acceleration and high-speed performance .. at least in theory. We'll see how it works in practice.


Let’s look at the positives
- More tweets than any other start-up
- Err… that’s it… O wait there are the Brammo Babes (a desperate act of improved self worth and blatant confidence inspiring tactic by the big man himself. Must make all the teams wives proud that Brammo’s greatest publicity accomplishment to date was to hire some models for a few hours)

Can't argue there. Brammo posts a great deal (twitter, FB, pinterest, blog) but little of it is substantive information on the bikes. The Brammo Babes are a little embarrassing; if bringing cheesecake is the established convention, fine, but a lot of the tradeshows have been very little beyond that. We still haven't seen the production Empulse at EICMA or otherwise.

BrammoBrian
09 March 2012, 1446
Happy to be a sleeping dog but some statements are like a kick in the ribs!

Sorry but I have to call BS on this.



Let’s look at Bramscher’s last four business ventures;

- The Rogue Super car- Many, many promises- EPIC Fail (never even turned a wheel)
- The Atom Ariel business- Gone
- The Carbon Fiber manufacturing business- Fail
- The Brammo Motorcycle (10’s of millions invested, 6+ models promised, 1 delivered)- ugly, sold < 50, Failing

Let’s look at announcements/plans

- Deal with Best Buy- EPIC Fail
- Deal with Flextronics- not relevant and not functioning
- New corporate HQ (2 new buildings, test track)- poorest use of funds imaginable
- 6 speed gear box- marketing smoke and mirrors that is a technical embarrassment
- Worst of all- standing firm that the Enertia “scooter” is capable of freeway speed/range vehicle (almost killed someone) EPIC FAILURE

Let’s look at the positives
- More tweets than any other start-up
- Err… that’s it… O wait there are the Brammo Babes (a desperate act of improved self worth and blatant confidence inspiring tactic by the big man himself. Must make all the teams wives proud that Brammo’s greatest publicity accomplishment to date was to hire some models for a few hours)

It is in spite of you that I, and others like me, choose to work hard to try to make the world a better place. Craig may have "FAILED" at some business ventures, but at least he doesn't suck as a human being.

mechanic
09 March 2012, 1555
...Craig may have "FAILED" at some business ventures, but at least he doesn't suck as a human being.

How a person manages commitments and promises is a part of their character, how they have handled business reflects on their abilities. I do believe you, I believe that most humans are good and want to make the world a better place. People here were justifiably questioning the Brammo business but now thanks to you may question more.

Pick your battles carefully son.

BrammoBrian
09 March 2012, 1559
How a person manages commitments and promises is a part of their character, how they have handled business reflects on their abilities. I do believe you, I believe that most humans are good and want to make the world a better place. People here were justifiably questioning the Brammo business but now thanks to you may question more.

Pick your battles carefully son.

Speaking of character... why don't you tell us how you have such great "insight" into Brammo?

mechanic
09 March 2012, 1616
Speaking of character... why don't you tell us how you have such great "insight" into Brammo?

brammo tweets mostly :)

Ken Will
10 March 2012, 0658
It is nice that we have some very passionate people, that love Electric Bikes, but, this thread is turning into a pissing contest.

Let's head in a different direction:

Indian Motorcycles failed because of inept management!
Harley-Davidson almost failed under poor management until the employees bought it.

What can Brammo do to improve? Positive comments please!

Richard230
10 March 2012, 0823
As a former 18-month long Empulse pre-order customer, my single suggestion is that Brammo have better communication with the public, their would-be customers and others interested in the brand and their products. It is tough waiting for something that you really want and have the money to buy, when you don't know exactly what it is that you are waiting for, how much it will cost and when it will be available for purchase. This long wait can create frustration that results in some people saying things that they ordinary would not say if they weren't so tightly wound up.

Hopefully Brammo will be able to clear up these questions in the near future and I look forward to them producing a World-class electric motorcycle that will be the acclaim of the motorcycling and technology press.

teddillard
10 March 2012, 1037
My vote would be for more of this:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7xKqb36JGmI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:cool:

Richard230
10 March 2012, 1548
Nice dyno. I wish I had one of those in my garage. ;)

JJROB80
10 March 2012, 1833
Na Don't want one of those LOVE THE BUILD LOL

EmpulseBuyer
11 March 2012, 0822
As a former 18-month long Empulse pre-order customer, my single suggestion is that Brammo have better communication with the public, their would-be customers and others interested in the brand and their products. It is tough waiting for something that you really want and have the money to buy, when you don't know exactly what it is that you are waiting for, how much it will cost and when it will be available for purchase. This long wait can create frustration that results in some people saying things that they ordinary would not say if they weren't so tightly wound up.

Hopefully Brammo will be able to clear up these questions in the near future and I look forward to them producing a World-class electric motorcycle that will be the acclaim of the motorcycling and technology press.

Agree... even I have gotten frustrated at times. Hopefully we will hear something this week, otherwise I may hit my dog or punch a hole in the wall (I will use a stud finder first this time).

Please Brammo, think about my dog... and my delicate computer guy hands.

I imagine they can at least show us what the production version LOOKS like, as Im sure that its ready to show off even if some specifications and other details are yet to be ironed out.

Deadly Silent Ninja
11 March 2012, 1643
What can Brammo do to improve? Positive comments please!

I just joined this forum, but I have been following the discussion on electric motorcycles for a few years and even tried to buy a couple (both times very unsuccessfully).

First I tried to buy a Zero in 2009. I contacted them, asked for a test ride which they said they would provide as long as I was willing to meet them in Richmond, VA. I accepted and asked them when I would be able to do it. Never heard back from them after many attempts.

Then, a few months later I saw a story about Brammo's Empulse on Motorcycle USA and decided to join the pre-order list. After waiting for a year I just gave up and took my name off the list.

In general, my recommendation for both Zero and Brammo is to stop the counter-productive communication. I have seen many Zero Zombies bashing not only Brammo and, as protomech mentioned, aggrandizing Zero's specs on many different sites, blogs, and forums. If that's how Ebikes will be represented, I'll go back to smokers. At least they are honest about being deceitful.

Brammo of course needs to put out some hard facts. As disgusting as mechanic's attacks are, BrammoBrian didn't do anything to help. I think protomech, Richard230 and Ted were having a much more productive discussion than those other two.

Besides that, the best advice to any electric motorcycle manufacturer around is to stop making toy-looking-bikes. With the exception of Sora, which costs more than I'll ever be able to afford, and the potential-Empulse, AKA virtual-Empulse or VEmpulse for short, all the other production Ebikes look like they were designed for a 5-year-old with bad taste.

And, of course, as someone trying to buy for a few years, can someone please put out a decent product AND sell me one? If someone who's actively trying to buy like me is having this much trouble getting a motorcycle, I don't think any of these brands will have any luck in building the market. :confused:
(Of course convincing the Virginia government to give me some rebates wouldn't hurt either...). :cool:

Richard230
11 March 2012, 1822
Zero seems to have gotten a lot better than they were during their early years when it comes to making their product on time and getting it out to the customer. The seem to have a whole new crowd at the factory and appear to have their act together now and are really working hard to design and produce bikes. Still, they are a relatively small operation (as manufacturers of anything go) and it is going to take some time to get their 2012 models out to every one of their dealers and pre-order customers.

Today I was up at Alice's Restaurant and in rolled a 2012 ZF9 "S", ridden by a factory employee who was heading to a demonstration at a local school and stopped there for a bite to eat. I showed him my stealth electrical outlet where he could pick up a charge and we talked for about 30 minutes about the bikes and the company. It was a very interesting conversation.

I noticed that he was quite cold and was rubbing his hands a lot to warm them up. I mentioned that he needed some heated grips and he told me that they had one bike with heated grips installed and were testing them out. He also mentioned that they were working with an after-market accessory manufacturer to develop hard saddlebags and a mounting system for them. He was very positive about the company and seemed to believe that both Zero and Brammo (he was not at all anti-Brammo) can have a bright future in the EV industry and he felt that some EV enthusiasts needed to stop bashing each other over the head regarding the different brands and their products.

Check out the attached photos showing the bike and the electrical outlet. You really got to look around for these things. :D

protomech
11 March 2012, 2237
The biggest thing Brammo can do is to establish regular, clear communication with their customers (and would-be customers). They've honestly done a very poor job of communicating since the Empulse was announced in summer 2010. I have hopes of this changing soon (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1001.msg7292#msg7292), and perhaps we'll have some concrete information (as we do for the Enertia Plus).

I think the monthly newsletter would be a great place to reveal new pieces of the design or explain some new or interesting feature on the bike. It would also be a good place to announce and explain previously announced changes to the design - for example, moving the Empulse handlebars to a more upright position, adding the IET and the types of benefits it would bring, or explaining the $2000 price bump from the Enertia Plus preliminary specifications. It keeps Brammo's would-be customers from forgetting about the company, if they're not plugged into the various owner forums.

Obviously there's a balance Brammo has to strike between revealing new information and holding back design details (see, er, the Zero headlight ;), and between spending time on customer relations and time spent on actual development of the bike. Hopefully as the company matures they'll refine their customer relations and releases of information to the community.


@Richard230 - I'll need to keep an eye out for hidden sockets like that. Do you find they're easier to spot now after you've gotten more seat time on the bike?

teddillard
12 March 2012, 0243
Funny about Zero, that's very true. My first exposure to them was an ad in CraigsList which I replied to, then got on an email blast list where the sender, an independent "dealer" neglected to even BCC the list. Total bush league. Some of the early bikes that were reviewed had Sharpie markings on the controls.

I got a total runaround from their Marketing company (yes, they hire a Marketing company, imagine that) when trying to get a test bike to finish my Enertia vs Zero story, so I just gave up. I write that off to them focusing on the mainstream market and not small blogger chumps like me... but as far as that kind of thing goes, they totally pissed me off, and I gave up on getting or giving any more information on them in general. That kind of fed in to the decision to forget about getting into the whole product review angle on my site - I have had way enough of that drama - so it ended up being not much of an issue, but I have no love of Zero as a company, and certainly am not a fanboy.

Both companies have been trying to solve the dealer network issue for sure. It's a tough nut to crack, and though I never thought the Best Buy deal should be exclusive (if it were me, that would have been a deal-breaker for that one) I was really interested to see if it would work, and sorely disappointed that it didn't. Zero's early "Independent Sales Rep via CraigsList" was ridiculous at best.

I agree on the styling. Both the Zero and Enertia I'd like nothing more than to get my hands on them and make them into some sort of cafe custom. I actually have talked to Harlan about that, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's doing with some of them, except with a warranty. :D

...and welcome to the group, sir!

Richard230
12 March 2012, 0808
I only noticed that ground outlet when I went looking for one. There used to be a telephone located there some years ago, before pay phones went out of fashion. I also found an electric outlet located behind the gas station, which is where I charged up my bike when I first rode it up there. When you own electric, you start looking for random 120V outlets that no one else pays attention to.

Regarding Zero, my impression is that they have changed direction over the past year or so and are buckling down to become more of a manufacturer and less of a "hobby-builder" operation. But that is just my perspective as a customer. One other thing I heard from the Zero employee that I spoke with is that they considered designing an EV with a transmission but felt that the additional costs, design/packaging compromises and development delay went in a direction that they just didn't want to go at this time. I suspect that they just wanted to get a usable and reliable product out to the customer as soon as possible - which makes sense to me from a business standpoint.

Deadly Silent Ninja
12 March 2012, 1543
I only noticed that ground outlet when I went looking for one. There used to be a telephone located there some years ago, before pay phones went out of fashion. I also found an electric outlet located behind the gas station, which is where I charged up my bike when I first rode it up there. When you own electric, you start looking for random 120V outlets that no one else pays attention to.

Even not having a bike to plug, I basically mapped all the "freebies" outlets around. I thought that is the minimum the local utilities can do to compensate for the lack of incentives... :o

protomech
17 March 2012, 1847
What do you mean by deceptive capacity figures? They straight up give you want you need in my opinion. Nominal capacity is calculated with V_nominal*Ah*#cells and Max capacity uses V_charged*Ah*#cells. I haven't seen figures like these posted from other brands...if you do some digging you can also figure out what cells they have and do the math to figure out the un-rounded numbers

The range figure is EPA and is a standard that everyone should use. It may not be real life figures but that isn't Zero's or any other manufacture fault. The EPA numbers give you simple number to compare to other machines or even your own gas bike.

Case in point: Susan Carpenter reviews the Zero DS ZF6 for the LA Times, trips over both capacity and highway range.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-electric-motorcycle-20120317,0,7364322.story

0:36 "And the 6 kwh ZF6 I was testing, that can travel up to 75 miles per charge in the city, or 42 miles at a consistent 70 mph on the freeway"

1. It's not a 6 kWh bike. Its pack (to the best of my knowledge) is an 18s4p configuration of EIG 3.65v 20Ah nominal pouch cells, giving a total nominal capacity of 5.26 kWh.
2. Zero claims a 42 mile "highway commuting" range, which is the geometric^Wharmonic mean of its 75 mile UDDS city range and its 29.2 mile steady 70 mph range.

Again, Zero isn't hiding this information - but they're making it very easy to mistake basic facts like capacity and range.

I think we'll see this touched on again when the Enertia Plus is released, as it has about 17% more capacity and should have noticeably more range than the ZF6 Zeros at moderate speeds.

Apologies for beating a dead horse here.. but I don't think this kind of overpromising is healthy for Zero or anyone else in the EV industry.

Speaking of Brammo, the same article above mentions that Empulse is gearing up for production in May and that prices will be $10-14k depending upon pack capacity. I can believe the latter but I have a hard time believing the former. Nonetheless, we should have some information soon - Brammo posts on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc/posts/341410515894256) "Sue Carpenter says the Empulse will be here in May.....so I expect we will be nailing down an exact day very soon."

emotofreak
19 March 2012, 1822
Again, Zero isn't hiding this information - but they're making it very easy to mistake basic facts like capacity and range.



And I suppose you have a better method? ;)

I also dislike the "maximum capacity" figures. However, what is "nominal capacity"? It's just a best guess dependent on environmental conditions and duty cycle. A 1c constant discharge does NOT yield the same capacity as 10c pulses at a 1/10th duty cycle. So what are you going to advertise? 1/20c like lead acid?

And be careful guessing performance and range based off "advertised" figures. How did you get the 17% increase in capacity? What were the duty-cycle and conditions? After how many cycles? And of course you are using independent 3rd party data I hope?

Some packs might under-deliver and some might actually over-deliver depending on their usage. An "energy" cell will fall on it's face if you ride it hard. A "power" cell will perform great for some number of cycles and then degrade. At some point the energy cell will re-take the lead.

Too many factors to just start throwing wild numbers around...

Nuts & Volts
19 March 2012, 1912
All it is is advertising. Too many numbers and non-techie people get confused and just ignore it. Not enough numbers and the techie people comlain about how its "incomplete" It's all a balance about getting everyone on board with your product, which doesn't always work

Every other thing in the world is advertised with this exact balance in this exact way. Some include the Chevy Volt being an electric vehicle when it is really a hybrid or the nissan leaf having a 100mile range when the EPA only rates it as 70ish. Or that paper towel works 2x as good as the other.

My point is they have presented factual data that has been calculated or collected through proper methods. If a consumer, magazine, blogger, or news channel reads it wrong it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong. It's up to us to make rational decisions about what the marker throws our way

Richard230
20 March 2012, 0819
As a non-techie type, I can tell you that I get confused easily by numbers. Which is not to say that I don't like to hear about them. I just take them with a big grain of salt. Ultimately, I only believe what I can actually experience, such as how my 2012 Zero S performs under my own butt (AKA The School of Hard Knocks).

My other problem is that the more I learn, the less I realize that I know. And so it goes.....

protomech
20 March 2012, 0902
And I suppose you have a better method? ;)

I'd like to see the UDDS figures, "highway commute", and steady highway figures. Sort of like the EPA city/combined/highway numbers for gas cars.

Zero does give the information needed to calculate steady highway range, but I think it would be significantly more helpful to the consumer to make that explicit rather than implicit. It benefits neither Zero nor the consumer nor the EV industry to oversell people on highway range. A consumer that buys a Zero ZF9 for a 50 mile freeway commute based on the 63 mile "highway commute" specification or a consumer that buys an Empulse 10 for an 80 mile freeway commute based upon its 100 mile range advertising will be very unhappy.. and while they truly do need to do their own research, if motorcycle journalists are reporting incorrect information then some numbers of consumers will be tripped up as well.


I also dislike the "maximum capacity" figures. However, what is "nominal capacity"? It's just a best guess dependent on environmental conditions and duty cycle. A 1c constant discharge does NOT yield the same capacity as 10c pulses at a 1/10th duty cycle. So what are you going to advertise? 1/20c like lead acid?

Nominal capacity isn't standardized (though 1C and 25 degrees C are typical), but it's a more comparative figure than reporting the maximum capacity fantasy. As N&V says, "Too many numbers and non-techie people get confused and just ignore it."

What would be ideal would be standardized test conditions for capacity. What we have is the industry standard (Nissan, Brammo, Tesla, etc) of nominal 3.7v per lithium cell (or 3.2v for the lifepo4 chemistries).. and Zero AFAICT claiming both 3.65v nominal and 4.2v maximum per lithium cell .. and then every single news outlet running with the 4.2v-based capacity specification.


And be careful guessing performance and range based off "advertised" figures. How did you get the 17% increase in capacity? What were the duty-cycle and conditions? After how many cycles? And of course you are using independent 3rd party data I hope?
6.2 kWh nominal Enertia+ / 5.3 kWh nominal Zero ZF6 = 1.17
E+ claims 1500 cycles to 80% capacity (half of Zero / EIG). Test conditions are unknown for both bikes. I'm using Zero (and EIG's) nominal capacity specification and Brammo's nominal capacity specification - giving Brammo the benefit of the doubt, as the 2009 Enertia's nominal capacity specification lined up directly with Valence's specifications.

This is indeed a lot of hand-wringing and guesstimation based on what little information we have about the Enertia and Empulse.


Some packs might under-deliver and some might actually over-deliver depending on their usage. An "energy" cell will fall on it's face if you ride it hard. A "power" cell will perform great for some number of cycles and then degrade. At some point the energy cell will re-take the lead.

Too many factors to just start throwing wild numbers around...
All true.

Capacity is somewhat of an arcane metric in any case; what actual people care about is cost per mile (Wh/mile at the plug), which is charger + bike efficiency; and total range, which is bike efficiency + battery capacity. I suspect the S is more efficient at low speeds, and the UDDS test range bears this out (5.3 kWh/76 miles = 70 Wh/mile, vs 6.2 kWh/80 miles = 78 Wh/mile for the E+) .. but I suspect we'll see the E+ do about 10-15% better at speeds around 55 mph.

emotofreak
20 March 2012, 1100
Beautiful formatting :) I will attempt to emulate...



I'd like to see the UDDS figures, "highway commute", and steady highway figures.

I too would like to see the "steady state" figures. It seems like no regulatory body can ever do anything the easy way...


6.2 kWh nominal Enertia+ / 5.3 kWh nominal Zero ZF6 = 1.17
E+ claims 1500 cycles to 80% capacity (half of Zero / EIG). Test conditions are unknown for both bikes. I'm using Zero (and EIG's) nominal capacity specification and Brammo's nominal capacity specification - giving Brammo the benefit of the doubt, as the 2009 Enertia's nominal capacity specification lined up directly with Valence's specifications.

Still no word on what cells they are "actually" going to use then? Long-term viability should NOT be overlooked. Assuming the manufacturer specs provided are close to reality, the 17% greater capacity of the brammo will be surpassed by the Zero somewhere between 1000-2000 cycles. It will be VERY interesting to see how each manufacturers packs stand up to the test of time. I do hope people understand that the bike with the best performance when they purchase it, may not maintain that lead over the course of a few years. Customers should ask themselves, do I want a bike that is a bit faster and goes a bit farther now, or one that maintains it's performance over a longer period of time? Cycle life will not be the only important metric. Calendar aging, BMS and charger behaviors, cell packaging, etc... will all play into a packs long-term health.

To extract the best TCO numbers, cycle life is HUGE! Comparing the Zero's (claimed) 3000 vs the brammos (claimed) 1500, the Zero will cost around 1/2 as much per mile, and would represent a much better value. Assuming you actually used most/all those cycles.


This is indeed a lot of hand-wringing and guesstimation based on what little information we have about the Enertia and Empulse.

Makes it really hard to even guess at vehicle metrics when Brammo is being so tight-lipped.


Capacity is somewhat of an arcane metric in any case; what actual people care about is cost per mile (Wh/mile at the plug), which is charger + bike efficiency; and total range, which is bike efficiency + battery capacity. I suspect the S is more efficient at low speeds, and the UDDS test range bears this out (5.3 kWh/76 miles = 70 Wh/mile, vs 6.2 kWh/80 miles = 78 Wh/mile for the E+) .. but I suspect we'll see the E+ do about 10-15% better at speeds around 55 mph.

Assuming both vehicle's controllers and motors are similar efficiencies, the only real areas left for efficiency gains are in the choice of motor parameters (current and temperature limits, motor-timing, etc...), transmission (or lack of), and aerodynamics. Everything else is trivial.

The more starts-stop you see, the better the Zero will do relatively, due to it's lighter weight and regen. Using the numbers above, it would appear the Zero is 11% more efficient around town, which almost offsets the 17% capacity difference.

Combined with the cycle-life assumptions above, this means the bikes will have pretty similar ranges around town to begin with, with the Brammo potentially having the initial edge. However, the Brammo's range will degrade faster than the Zero's, resulting in the Zero taking the lead (around town) after possibly 1-2 years of "average" riding.

Which makes me wonder if the IET will ever be worth it's weight due to the loss of efficiency at steady speeds...

Enough musing for now I guess..

ZoomSmith
20 March 2012, 1253
As a non-techie type, I can tell you that I get confused easily by numbers. Which is not to say that I don't like to hear about them. I just take them with a big grain of salt. Ultimately, I only believe what I can actually experience, such as how my 2012 Zero S performs under my own butt (AKA The School of Hard Knocks).

"Big Grain of Salt" is the key. Does anyone really believe the HP numbers from Honda, Yamaha, H-D, etc...? I always wait for the magazine reviews and real-world dyno numbers.

protomech
20 March 2012, 1414
Cycle life will not be the only important metric. Calendar aging, BMS and charger behaviors, cell packaging, etc... will all play into a packs long-term health.

To extract the best TCO numbers, cycle life is HUGE! Comparing the Zero's (claimed) 3000 vs the brammos (claimed) 1500, the Zero will cost around 1/2 as much per mile, and would represent a much better value. Assuming you actually used most/all those cycles.

With large capacity 6+ kWh packs, battery life in the thousands of cycles may not be terribly useful. Though I'd love to be proven wrong : )

I'm getting 65-75 miles per full charge now, and I've put about 250 miles on the bike in the first week - in aggregate, 3.5 cycles. If I can do 10k miles per year on the Zero, then I'll accumulate ~180 cycles per year.

The high range of my expectation is useful battery life at 10 years, which would be around 1800 cycles. I wouldn't be surprised if calendar time takes a much heavier toll than cycles - and I know of no way to predict the effects of calendar aging.

I've done 6k miles in the last 2.5 years on my gas bike - that type of usage pattern would be about 35 cycles/year and battery deterioration would be entirely driven by calendar aging (and thermal exposure).

JohnSki
29 March 2012, 1854
“If anyone expects a $10k Empulse 6.0 (or $14k 10.0) after the Enertia Plus was bumped from $9k to $11k, they're going to be quite sad when Brammo does deliver final specifications. “


My Idea of the enetia plus price jump from $9k to $11K is this:
1. At $9k the original enertia is obsolete because you now get double the range for another $1K (sounds like a no-brainer).
2. With the enertia plus at $11K the original enertia might still be in the game.
3. The $2500 loyalty rebate that they offered now doesn’t cost them too much.
4. There is always a chess game with business
.
The only problem I see is that the people who were waiting for an enertia plus like me now feel betrayed and are going over to look at the Zero zf6 for about the same price.

I hope that Brammo doesn’t drop the enertia in favor of the empulse because I am one of those people that don’t prefer the sport bike style. I am a novice and also don’t want an intimidating bike.

My main problem I have with Brammo is there are no dealers in the Philadelphia PA area. I am 6’ 3” and would like to know that I fit on something (see, touch, ride). I liked the Brammo quality I see on their videos but now I have a Zero dealer in Cherry Hill NJ and the Zeros don’t have that cheap look to them anymore.

billmi
29 March 2012, 1952
1. At $9k the original enertia is obsolete because you now get double the range for another $1K (sounds like a no-brainer).


Double the range, but 25% shorter lifespan.

ZoomSmith
30 March 2012, 0831
Just got the latest spam, I mean PRESS RELEASE, on the Enertia Plus, touting all the improvements.

Sadly, no release date mentioned.

teddillard
30 March 2012, 0926
...and here I was trying to be all well-behaved and sh1t. :D

My favorite part: "The Enertia has advanced a great deal since it was first introduced and the Enertia Plus is currently the highest performance Enertia available." It's the kind of "marketing" that gives Marketing a bad name.