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liveforphysics
17 February 2012, 1737
After thinking about Brians suggestion that something may be causing this bike to down on power, I decided on my own accord to pull this vid. I would like to know 100% that it's a healthy bike, and Brian thinks it may not be.

Nuts & Volts
17 February 2012, 1752
Cool, thanks for sharing.

Looks like it peaks at about 11-12HP

liveforphysics
17 February 2012, 1752
Cool, thanks for sharing.

Looks like it peaks at about 11-12HP

11.3hp was the peak.

** this may not be a healthy bike, so take the numbers for what they are, the real power that this example in this condition makes, and hopefully something is wrong, and it shows us a better number when fixed.

Nuts & Volts
17 February 2012, 1802
11.3hp was the peak.

Hmm so my AGNI powered R6 will be roughly 2.5x (~30HP) as powerful at the wheel. How brisk is the acceleration on a Enertia? Never really thought about how little power you really need just for commuting. Well at least in terms of what the Enertia can do.

edit: found a 0-60 of 16.1sec for the Enertia, I think my R6 will about 8sec with a similar top speed. Cool

liveforphysics
17 February 2012, 1914
Hmm so my AGNI powered R6 will be roughly 2.5x (~30HP) as powerful at the wheel. How brisk is the acceleration on a Enertia? Never really thought about how little power you really need just for commuting. Well at least in terms of what the Enertia can do.

edit: found a 0-60 of 16.1sec for the Enertia, I think my R6 will about 8sec with a similar top speed. Cool


I'm 230lbs right now (fatty-mc-fatty-pants lol), so for a lighter guy it might not feel too shabby. For me it honestly feels pretty close to the unsafe to merge into traffic sort of slow, but I bet with a light rider who is accustomed to slower bikes would think it feels fine.

As a benchmark, the 2012 Zero DS makes about 2.5x the power and accelerates with about double the torque at all RPM points, and then continues to pull past 80mph rather than dying out around 58mph.

But, the little XU urban commuter bike only makes a little more HP and torque than the Enertia, and is very light, and only does about 8mph faster, and it doesn't feel dangerously slow to me, so I'm guessing if you're a very light weight rider the Enertia likely feels fine if you don't mind the low top speed.


*** Note: This riding experience may not reflect a healthy version of this bike, if this bike is indeed down on power as Brian suggests it may be.

liveforphysics
17 February 2012, 1928
On ES, a fellow named BrammoBrian replied that our Enertia may have something wrong that makes it a bit down on power, he says healthy ones do 15hp. So, this may be a power measurement of an un-healthy example of an Enertia.

teddillard
18 February 2012, 0338
AWEsome video, and thanks for posting. (i can haz dyno preeze?) Though I'm thinking of buying an ElMoto tripod that I'd gladly lend out to anyone who would use it... :rolleyes:


On ES, a fellow named BrammoBrian ...

Yeah, that would be Brian Wismann, the Product Manager for the Enertia. Cool guy, used to hang out here a lot...

I had an Enertia for a week, and rode it to work on the infamous and notorious Route 128 one day. I weigh 170, and yes, I'd agree... it's on the threshold of dangerously underpowered for highway riding, IMO. Though I had plenty of charge to make my 30miles, the commute can go from stop/go to 70mph+ in a heartbeat, with lots of steel flying around you at those speeds. At one point, I was actually kind of terrified. (...been riding on highways for about 40 years, just FYI, and I don't scare easily).

Here's the video: http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/brammo-enertia-vs-route-128-commute-one-word-cake/

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YfF7t_6Po2E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's the first post of the Enertia-Zero comparison:
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/brammo-enertia-vs-zero-s-part-1-spec-battle/

Riding in an urban environment, with max speeds of 40-50mph, or even a rural back-roads area it would be fine. Yep. Scooterville. :O

Richard230
18 February 2012, 0855
Thanks for posting that video Ted. That was fun. Were you using a "stomach cam"? :D

Those mirrors look kind of familiar. My 2012 Zero S mirrors look exactly like that. They did such a great job of showing off my armpits that I decided they could do an even better job if I extended them out a couple of inches. See attached photos of a close up of the extender and a front view showing my bike with the mirror extenders installed. Useful devices. They cost $13 each at my local motorcycle shop and are a lot cheaper than new mirrors.

I might add that I am really happy with my Zero so far. I have reached an indicated 85 mph with just a few seconds of throttle twisting from a speed of 70 before I backed off. I also was able to hold a stead 81 mph up a 3-mile long 6% gradient freeway hill. The bike is kind of slow up to about 10 mph (something that might be solved by a gearbox) and "Eco" mode is pretty much useless except if you have entered a "slow race" at a motorcycle rally. For my purposes, which is just safe, convenient and quiet transportation within a 40-mile radius around my home, it seems to be the perfect vehicle. Plus, I have two speedometers, just in case one stops working. :D

Real-world range, keeping up with traffic and not going too far on the freeway is about 70-80 miles.

podolefsky
18 February 2012, 0952
Cycle World reviewed an Enertia in April '10. Their dyno plot showed 16.7 HP at 3320 RPM.

This was corrected rear-wheel HP...not sure what they corrected for since it's electric...

liveforphysics
18 February 2012, 1116
Cycle World reviewed an Enertia in April '10. Their dyno plot showed 16.7 HP at 3320 RPM.

This was corrected rear-wheel HP...not sure what they corrected for since it's electric...

Exactly. When you do the SAE power correction for an electric, you just inflate the number by a substantial amount (depending on what the atmospheric pressure and temp happen to be that day).

Its very tricky to even turn SAE correction off on most dynos. Its off on ours, and its calibrated.

teddillard
18 February 2012, 1119
Thanks for posting that video Ted. That was fun. Were you using a "stomach cam"? :D

HA! You're onto my SECRET!

FreepZ
19 February 2012, 2104
After thinking about Brians suggestion that something may be causing this bike to down on power, I decided on my own accord to pull this vid. I would like to know 100% that it's a healthy bike, and Brian thinks it may not be.

This raises a couple of questions:
1. If there was some issue the bike, why didn't isn't the bike telling you that?
2. Do you think that you would have been able to detect an issue if you had not put the bike on the dyno?

Brammo support has a very good reputation, so I would also be interested to know how this is resolved. Is the lack of HP deemed an acceptable deficiency? Is that something that can be fixed? Is the bike still under warranty?

I plan to buy an Empulse (when it finally goes into production), and I would like to think that I would be able to see if there was an issue without having to take it to a bike tuning shop.

liveforphysics
20 February 2012, 0108
1. No, the bike indicates nothing in wrong, not lights or warnings or anything, behaves normally. Performance seems like I remembered it being, sluggish but not too awful if you're not trying to ride on a highway. Fine for non-hilly city riding, though with a lighter rider the hills may not seem like such a challenge for it.

2. Would that be able to detect an issue if I hadn't throw it on the dyno? I dunno, maybe if they know of a problem they commonly have they could send someone to check I suppose, otherwise I think they would need a crystal ball or something to know, unless at some point maybe the problem increases until an alarm indicates the user? (I have no idea, just taking a wild guess) Or maybe the user calls and tells them it doesn't perform like they remembered it doing when they first got it? Not sure.


The moment he suggested something may be wrong, or our dyno may be off, he offered to send a team to check out the health of the bike. Can't really offer to do better than that as a mfg, and I understand as well as anyone that things do go wrong, hopefully there is a simple problem they can set-straight and the bike will dyno higher afterward.

protomech
20 February 2012, 1026
Be interested to see what you find out.

The Valence batteries in the Enertia only claim 3C peak load in the specs (which would be 9.3 kw at the battery). They may in practice be able to discharge more quickly than that, of course.

emotofreak
02 March 2012, 1833
Copied from my post on ES

Here is a dyno plot from an independent 3rd party. I too, suspect that pretty much no one knows to turn off "SAE Power Correction" when testing electric bikes. Which would indicate the the previously quoted 11.3HP may not be far off.

http://plugbike.com/2010/08/10/who-won-the-mo-electric-motorcycle-shootout/

http://plugbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/zero-brammo-native-dyno-run.jpg

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any solid dyno data on Brammo Enertia's since the above testing, that I could find anyways...

Richard230
03 March 2012, 0832
No torque curves?

protomech
05 March 2012, 1734
Brammo claims 13 kW (17.4 hp) peak output.

The motorcycle.com dyno results are 77% of claimed motor power at the rear wheel.

***

Zero doesn't generally advertise a power rating for their bikes, but here's two sources that claim about 30 hp for the 2010 S:

Transport Canada's specifications list 22 kW or 29.5 hp.
http://tc.gc.ca/eng/programs/environment-etv-techzero-eng-428.htm

Motorcycle.com 2010 S review states "[Zero’s VP of Worldwide Sales, John] Lloyd says he has seen this motor dyno’d at about 30 hp and 65 ft-lbs of torque".
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2010-zero-s-and-ds-review-89389.html

Supposing 29.5 hp is correct, the motorcycle.com dyno results are 71% of claimed motor power at the rear wheel.

***

Overthinking the numbers aside, the 2010 Zero S is noticeably faster than the Enertia, and the 2012 S is much quicker still. However, suppose the motorcycle.com dyno results are improperly adjusted upwards and the actual output for the Enertia is 11.3 hp. How much actual power does that leave the comparison 2010 S with versus its dubiously-sourced peak?

Biff
06 March 2012, 1247
The same 3rd party (motorcycle.com) posted a dyno from their 2012 DS (same power train as the 2012 S, different gearing though)

2831

liveforphysics
08 March 2012, 1738
For the folks who may just see that graph and think, ok, it's got 10hp more. Notice that at 65mph, it's got ~24hp at the tire (which is all that matters) vs the 2010's ~8hp at the tire.

Yes, a 300% increase in power at 65mph over 2 years ago.

That's pretty awesome. The future is now.

protomech
08 March 2012, 1847
Yeah, 25-30% more power up until 40 mph, then it just keeps going while the 2010 bike falters (even if the 65 mph power is a 200% increase not a 300% increase ; ). I rode a 2011 last year, it was perfectly capable of keeping ahead of cars. I'm really looking forward to riding a 2012.

Also, the x axis spacing on that chart is seriously ****ed.

skyclark
08 March 2012, 1848
For the folks who may just see that graph and think, ok, it's got 10hp more. Notice that at 65mph, it's got ~24hp at the tire (which is all that matters) vs the 2010's ~8hp at the tire.

Yes, a 300% increase in power at 65mph over 2 years ago.

That's pretty awesome. The future is now.



This is exciting!

Skeezmour
08 March 2012, 1917
Can't wait to try one out.

liveforphysics
08 March 2012, 2053
Can't wait to try one out.

Anytime you want to come by, I will personally take you on a bad-ass test ride, rippin it up through the redwoods and along the coast.

Skeezmour
08 March 2012, 2127
GRRRR....your killing me....:) oh wait....wife is heading to Boston for a week....I could ride down for the weekend :) SOUNDS AWESOME! SHHH no one tell my wife.

liveforphysics
09 March 2012, 0056
GRRRR....your killing me....:) oh wait....wife is heading to Boston for a week....I could ride down for the weekend :) SOUNDS AWESOME! SHHH no one tell my wife.


If you're serious, I've got an air mattress you're welcome to setup on the floor if you like. There are also hotels that are reasonable of course. I will warn you though, I've done the drive from Tacoma to Santa Cruz 5 times now, taking it straight everytime, and even in a car it gets prettying tiring. On a motorcycle, you're likely going to want to split it into 2 days (unless you're just an animal iron-butt rider).

Richard230
09 March 2012, 0906
Before my daughter moved down to the Bay Area, she used to live in Ballard, just north of Seattle and would ride her Suzuki GS500E down to my home in Pacifica on Friday, arrive Friday night, stay over Saturday for a visit with me and then ride back Sunday. She would take I-5 non-stop and be home after 17 hours on the road. And that was on a light bike without a windshield. She put 85K miles on that 500 in just 4 years. Now she has two children (and three motorcycles) and will drive her car the same way, with the kids in the back seat, all day long. That is nothing that I could do, but I continue to be amazed that there are people who can ride long distances for many hours without a stretch and somehow stay awake and alert. I guess it just depends on inheriting the right combination of DNA.

Skeezmour
09 March 2012, 1105
If you're serious, I've got an air mattress you're welcome to setup on the floor if you like. There are also hotels that are reasonable of course. I will warn you though, I've done the drive from Tacoma to Santa Cruz 5 times now, taking it straight everytime, and even in a car it gets prettying tiring. On a motorcycle, you're likely going to want to split it into 2 days (unless you're just an animal iron-butt rider).

Wife told me to go for it if weather is ok. Yep I'm the iron butt type. Done coast of NC to Sac, CA 4x when I was in the military non stop each way(53 hours). Have not ridden my ZX6r that far but it honestly is one of the most comfortable sport bikes I have had. I would ride the TL1000s but it just isn't as comfortable for longer rides for me (I need to be about 4" taller).

PM sent.

Thanks,
Gene

liveforphysics
09 March 2012, 1200
Wow! Richard, your daughter is an iron-butt queen! That's amazing! She is way tougher than I am. I get pretty tired after riding about 200miles at a time. lol It MIGHT have something to do with my freeway riding style typically involving 100mph wheelies while splitting traffic though... lol

Gene! 53hrs of riding straight??? Holy cow man! That's really brutal! I would be wilted like a cut flower laying in the sun after 1/10th that long on a bike. lol I look forward to having you as a guest my friend.

Richard230
09 March 2012, 1601
I will never forget the day that my daughter rode from UCSD to my home in Pacifica. She left on a Friday night, rode here via 101 in a cold winter thunderstorm for hours while being pelted by hail and wearing only a leather suit with no rain protection. She arrived at 6 am, freezing cold, hung up the now 30-pound suit, and fell into bed for most of the day. She left on Sunday morning, wearing the wet suit and arrived back at San Diego later that night. She is really tough.

Attached are a couple of photos taken about 10 years ago. She still has both bikes. Both have about 85,000 miles on them. (I know, because she rides them and I get to maintain them.)

Sorry about hijacking the thread, but I felt a little human interest post would lighten things up around here today. :)

frodus
09 March 2012, 1705
Love the vfr. Just like mine.

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