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View Full Version : AC-23 or new oil cooled motors from HPEVs?



robermelendez
24 July 2015, 0942
Like many of you I am an AC20 fan,

However I saw the Ac23 motor from HPEVs (more torque, but lower base speed), I was thinking it might pose some advantages in terms of the rear-front sprocket gearing. I run a Ac20 with 12:60 ratio and I'm a little nervous about such a small front sprocket (but i like the ratio at 100Nm of motor torque), if i used a Ac23 i could gear 4:1 or even 3:1. It also might help folks with issues in sprocket to swingarm clearance.

power graphs here

http://hpevs.com/catalog-ac-20.htm

Finally does anyone have any experiences with the oil cooled marine motors from HPEVs?

http://hpevs.com/oil-cooled-drive-systems.htm

DRZ400
24 July 2015, 1033
Sounds like a great motor to work with my Suzuki Savage Belt Drive!

Hugues
24 July 2015, 1231
yeah ! :cool:, never compared the torque chart of ac-20 and ac-23, this is pretty impressive, 1.5 x the torque right off the bat, that would give me 1'086 Nm :cool: :eek: When did they start to sell it ?

ok, the tradeoff is lower torque at higher rev. For my ratio (6.3), the ac-23 would start to output less torque then the ac-20 above 80 km/h (50 mi/h). Considering that i spend most of my time riding below 80-90 km/h (never go on highway), this is quite interesting.

I need to simulate the 0-60 mph acceleration time between the 2, surely the ac-23 is much better.

I don't know if you could run your ac-23 at below 4:1 ratio though. Initially i ran my ac-20 at just above 4:1 and it was overheating like crazy. Ok, my bike is 280 kgs but...

As for their oil cooled, can't use'em, they are too big. Anything bigger than ac-20 won't fit within my swingarm.

thanks for the post, i might have found my next upgrade, my wife will hate you LOL

did you find the price online somewhere ?

podolefsky
24 July 2015, 1940
The 23 has higher peak torque at low RPM, but the continuous power is about the same. Continuous power output is basically proportional to copper fill at low RPM, Since both motors use the same frame, both have the same copper fill and roughly the same continuous power.

Actually, the continuous charts show the 20 will provide slightly higher torque and power below 4000 RPM. If you're overheating the AC-20 at low speed, gearing for lower RPM and running the AC-23 will probably make things worse. Generally speaking, if you're overheating at low speed, you want to gear for higher RPM. Changing the winding and gearing won't help that much.

I've run an 11 tooth on an AC-20 for a couple years without issue. 11 is pushing it, 12 should be fine.

The oil cooled motors are meant for boats and assume cool water is flowing through the heat exchanger. See big red warning here (http://hpevs.com/catalog-ac-3X%20oil%20cooled.html).

Hugues
25 July 2015, 0106
Actually, using peak torque graphs, which i think is a correct assumption for regular street riding with occasional peak demand, i plugged in the torque in the EV_Super_Estimator spreadsheet to compare acceleration of both motor. That gives in my case (6.29 ratio, 805 total weight):



Top speed
AC-20 time sec
AC-23 time sec


0-30 mph
2.3
1.7


0-50 mph
4.1
3.4


0-60 mph
5.1
4.8



So yeah, not as much as I expected on the 0-60 time. Although it is not often i really go full blast to 60 mph form a dead stop. I would more go to 50 mph from a dead stop, and here i gain almost a second, probably enough to justify bragging rights :D. Claiming in excess of 1'000 Nm on the wheel has also some appeal i must say LOL. The 0 to 30 mph figure surely shows the bike would feel more responsive from a dead start, which i feel is lacking today.

For heavy street riding or riding uphill, which i encounter each time i go back home, need to look at continuous graph. Here, i'm a little worried, the vented fan cooled graph are really different as to peak torque. The AC-20 allows 130 ft.lbs up to 4000 rpm whereas the AC-23 allows only 70 to 80 ft.lbs. This is pretty much the show stopper for me as today my fan cooled AC-20 would start to de-rate (Curtis protection kicking in at high temp) if i ride heavy and then go up hill for a while. The AC-23 would then probably de-rate much faster unless i reduce my demand sharply, which i cannot do that much while going uphill.

Too bad, the fun lasted only 12 hours. :p

ARC EV Racing
25 July 2015, 0449
the ac23 is designed to complement to higher voltage Curtis controllers (144v). They perform very well. Returning 80+hp.

We have a pairing for sale in the for sale section with controllers which could be split if anyone is interested. We also have a spare brand new 144v controller.

Athlon
25 July 2015, 0512
For heavy street riding or riding uphill, which i encounter each time i go back home, need to look at continuous graph. Here, i'm a little worried, the vented fan cooled graph are really different as to peak torque. The AC-20 allows 130 ft.lbs up to 4000 rpm whereas the AC-23 allows only 70 to 80 ft.lbs. This is pretty much the show stopper for me as today my fan cooled AC-20 would start to de-rate (Curtis protection kicking in at high temp) if i ride heavy and then go up hill for a while. The AC-23 would then probably de-rate much faster unless i reduce my demand sharply, which i cannot do that much while going uphill.

Too bad, the fun lasted only 12 hours. :p


since your porblem are the mountain I still think that a small hiddend distilled water spry evaporative coling can really solve your problem.
Water evaporation can really take away huge amount of heat , less than a soda can can keep your motor cool for lot of time , all you need is a wiper water pump a spry nozzle nothing more.

Athlon
25 July 2015, 0519
BTW , i'm almost done with some PM motors for the new Curtis E with PM firmware power size will be 25 -35- 44kw continous S1

Hugues
25 July 2015, 0607
since your porblem are the mountain I still think that a small hiddend distilled water spry evaporative coling can really solve your problem.
Water evaporation can really take away huge amount of heat , less than a soda can can keep your motor cool for lot of time , all you need is a wiper water pump a spry nozzle nothing more.

thanks, i'm still keeping this idea as plan B, my plan A is about to arrive, PLA/copper filament, i will 3d print a heat sink for my motor, pyrolize the PLA, then i'll be left with copper, should help to dissipate heat.

Hugues
25 July 2015, 0609
the ac23 is designed to complement to higher voltage Curtis controllers (144v). They perform very well. Returning 80+hp.

We have a pairing for sale in the for sale section with controllers which could be split if anyone is interested. We also have a spare brand new 144v controller.

does the ac-23 run hotter than ac-20 ?

do you think i have any tangible benefits to upgrade to an ac-23 if i keep my current controller and 96 volts ? Or i need the new controller as well AND higher voltage (which could be a big job) ?

Nuts & Volts
25 July 2015, 1245
M
BTW , i'm almost done with some PM motors for the new Curtis E with PM firmware power size will be 25 -35- 44kw continous S1


Make sure you start a thread on this!!





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stevo
26 July 2015, 0828
Athlon's water evap system would weigh a whole lot less than an oil cooling sytem with pump, plumbing, heat exchanger, and oil reservoir. Also less space used.
I would test that idea first before swapping out motors Hughes... and your wife would be happier :p

robermelendez
26 July 2015, 1006
since your porblem are the mountain I still think that a small hiddend distilled water spry evaporative coling can really solve your problem.
Water evaporation can really take away huge amount of heat , less than a soda can can keep your motor cool for lot of time , all you need is a wiper water pump a spry nozzle nothing more.

this spray idea is pretty cool... i have heard of similar tricks used to prevent buses drumbrakes from overheating (pretty sketchy deal on brakes... but motor might be fine)

Athlon, do you have any documentation (pictures, data etc) of this system?

Cheers

podolefsky
27 July 2015, 1045
does the ac-23 run hotter than ac-20 ?

do you think i have any tangible benefits to upgrade to an ac-23 if i keep my current controller and 96 volts ? Or i need the new controller as well AND higher voltage (which could be a big job) ?


If you're not changing your controller and pack, stick with the AC-20.

Athlon
27 July 2015, 1354
this spray idea is pretty cool... i have heard of similar tricks used to prevent buses drumbrakes from overheating (pretty sketchy deal on brakes... but motor might be fine)

Athlon, do you have any documentation (pictures, data etc) of this system?

Cheers

on brake is used only in racing because for safety reason bake of road legal car cannot change performace over time
You can see a lot of steam coming out from the fron wheel in truck racing

I used it on my converted R4 for my travel from Italy to Dakar
http://www.electricmotornews.com/veicoli-ecologici/automobili/renault-automobili/milano-dakar-per-solidarieta-in-auto-elettrica

but the most important voice is for sure Farfle
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51247
https://www.facebook.com/TeamFarfleRacing

DRZ400
27 July 2015, 1359
Hello! Where can I find this spreadsheet? Thx Phil


Actually, using peak torque graphs, which i think is a correct assumption for regular street riding with occasional peak demand, i plugged in the torque in the EV_Super_Estimator spreadsheet to compare acceleration of both motor. That gives in my case (6.29 ratio, 805 total weight):



Top speed
AC-20 time sec
AC-23 time sec


0-30 mph
2.3
1.7


0-50 mph
4.1
3.4


0-60 mph
5.1
4.8



So yeah, not as much as I expected on the 0-60 time. Although it is not often i really go full blast to 60 mph form a dead stop. I would more go to 50 mph from a dead stop, and here i gain almost a second, probably enough to justify bragging rights :D. Claiming in excess of 1'000 Nm on the wheel has also some appeal i must say LOL. The 0 to 30 mph figure surely shows the bike would feel more responsive from a dead start, which i feel is lacking today.

For heavy street riding or riding uphill, which i encounter each time i go back home, need to look at continuous graph. Here, i'm a little worried, the vented fan cooled graph are really different as to peak torque. The AC-20 allows 130 ft.lbs up to 4000 rpm whereas the AC-23 allows only 70 to 80 ft.lbs. This is pretty much the show stopper for me as today my fan cooled AC-20 would start to de-rate (Curtis protection kicking in at high temp) if i ride heavy and then go up hill for a while. The AC-23 would then probably de-rate much faster unless i reduce my demand sharply, which i cannot do that much while going uphill.

Too bad, the fun lasted only 12 hours. :p

Hugues
27 July 2015, 2136
on brake is used only in racing because for safety reason bake of road legal car cannot change performace over time
You can see a lot of steam coming out from the fron wheel in truck racing

I used it on my converted R4 for my travel from Italy to Dakar
http://www.electricmotornews.com/veicoli-ecologici/automobili/renault-automobili/milano-dakar-per-solidarieta-in-auto-elettrica

but the most important voice is for sure Farfle
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51247
https://www.facebook.com/TeamFarfleRacing

Interesting, I did not know you were spraying water inside, I thought on the outside.

As the forum post said, be careful not to spray too much and wet your tire as it happened to them and crashed.

Anyone reported on the impact of having water on the steel inside the motor ? Any risk of rust ? I guess if you stop your system when finishing to ride, the residual heat will dry up your motor .

I might give it a try if my 3D printed heatsink is not sufficient.

Hugues
27 July 2015, 2140
Hello! Where can I find this spreadsheet? Thx Phil

The first link in this thread still works:http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=986&p=27644&viewfull=1#post27644

although i realize i'm using a different one, attached to this post below, but i'm not the creator of this file. Just change the figures in yellow cells on top first to match your data, then in the torque column in yellow, input the torque of your motor for the rpm given on that line. Pay attention that when you change some of the parameters on top of the file, the rpm values below change, so enter your torque values at the end only.


6657

DRZ400
28 July 2015, 0544
Thx!


The first link in this thread still works:http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=986&p=27644&viewfull=1#post27644

although i realize i'm using a different one, attached to this post below, but i'm not the creator of this file. Just change the figures in yellow cells on top first to match your data, then in the torque column in yellow, input the torque of your motor for the rpm given on that line. Pay attention that when you change some of the parameters on top of the file, the rpm values below change, so enter your torque values at the end only.


6657

Hugues
03 September 2016, 1106
Finally decided to upgrade my AC-20 to AC-23, took some time to sort out the installation, did stupid stuff in the process (like frying my controller),

But today was my first real ride with the AC-23, i don't regret it, it's quite punchy at low rpm, that's below 80 km/h for me, i'm geared 7.04:1,

AC-23 starts at 173 N-m at 0 rpm, so i've got 1'218 N-m right off the bat. I haven't pushed it hard so far, starting slowly, but it's quite impressive, had to tune down my throttle sensitivity and engine break to avoid locking the wheel.

Runs a little hotter than my AC-20, but i've got 3 fans to take care of this, should be enough.

Wish i can find a track to measure 0-60 acceleration and post some data.

7135

4dollarjoe
06 September 2016, 1136
Interesting idea with the evaporated water cooling. I worked with an ev team a few months back that wanted to do evaporated alcohol cooling but never came to fruition. I wonder how dangerous it would be if you got a stray spark somehow though. Seemed like a bad idea.


I like the idea of this, can't wait to see the performance with your copper heatsink.

If you don't get as good as performance you could try making an enclosed shroud with vents for your heatsink and try the evaportated water idea. That way the water would be applied only to the copper heatsink of your motor so you wont get steel rust and also you won't have to worry about water particles coming in from your 3 fans. Air cooling for the inside and heatsink/water evap for the outside.

Hugues
03 July 2017, 1038
I'm still very pleased with my AC-23, riding AC-20 before.

Question: anyone knows what is the physical difference between the 2 motors ? They have about the same peak power and they have same dimensions. AC-23 has much more torque from 0 rpm but decreases faster than AC-20, the 2 torque graphs meet at around 4000 rpm if i recall correctly, then AC-23 has less torque than AC-20.

So i guess it's the windings ?, but how are the windings different precisely ? number of coils ? number of turn per coil ? diameter of copper wire used ?...

Warren
06 July 2017, 0844
Talk of cooling the HPEV AC motors reminds me of the 2010 TTXGP at VIR. Brian Richardson, of Moto-Electra, had a spray can, with a vinyl hose, running either to the controller, or the motor for those extra hard efforts...he wasn't telling which. :-)

http://visforvoltage.org/sites/default/files/u30/DSCN3426-web.jpg

They tried lots of cooling schemes,

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/05/electra-03.jpg

He later did a complete redesign with a scratch-built frame, and a larger HPEV AC motor.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/57/7c/07/577c0740cd07490a142d36a4ba539289--challenges-electra.jpg

frodus
07 July 2017, 1333
Talk of cooling the HPEV AC motors reminds me of the 2010 TTXGP at VIR. Brian Richardson, of Moto-Electra, had a spray can, with a vinyl hose, running either to the controller, or the motor for those extra hard efforts...he wasn't telling which. :-)

http://visforvoltage.org/sites/default/files/u30/DSCN3426-web.jpg

They tried lots of cooling schemes,

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/05/electra-03.jpg

He later did a complete redesign with a scratch-built frame, and a larger HPEV AC motor.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/57/7c/07/577c0740cd07490a142d36a4ba539289--challenges-electra.jpg

Were you at VIR? That was fun. Dropped in while I was there seeing parents.