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jazclrint
01 December 2010, 1254
http://vimeo.com/17252395

There are 2 videos. One in the canyons, and one at a track day.

I don't know about you guys, but I want Brian's job!

Brian, any chance you'd give a bit of a write up about what's going on in the videos? I am curious as to what the dash was telling you on the track day video. I saw 2 lights and an LCD screen with writing on it, but my computer is old so I couldn't make out what any of it said.

Thanks,
Rich

Nuts & Volts
01 December 2010, 1352
Sweet! Thanks for the post

Brammofan
01 December 2010, 1430
http://vimeo.com/17252395

Brian, any chance you'd give a bit of a write up about what's going on in the videos? I am curious as to what the dash was telling you on the track day video. I saw 2 lights and an LCD screen with writing on it, but my computer is old so I couldn't make out what any of it said.

Brian originally posted these on the Brammo Owners Forum (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=452.msg2597#msg2597), and I'd be happy to share what he wrote over there, on here:


A few notes on the videos:

1. The on-board track video was recorded while we were doing some data logging, so the focus on the track was getting good data, not setting record times. We were also doing at most 3 laps back to back (out lap, 1 complete lap, in lap) in order to check that we were getting the data we needed. Therefore, all of the laps were done at a 80-90% pace. The speedo is close, but not really calibrated to the rear wheel/tire/sprocket combo we were experimenting with at the time. The board at the start says "B" because it was a light trackday and they were running A and B group together. I don't apex turn 1 because it's track etiquette.

2. I am the rider in both videos, and as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, I'm not a professional racer. There is no doubt that only a pro will be able to extract the maximum performance from a bike like this. I love riding it though!

3. For the road test - This is a road I am intimately familiar with as we used to test Ariel Atoms up this same stretch of road. I know the traffic patterns and even some of the few people that live along this road. This was a one-time test to justify the 3.5 hour drive to the test track. At the beginning of the clip, I pass a truck on a double-yellow. Shame on me, but you'll notice I line up on the trucks left and gain a full view of the road ahead through the corner before passing. The double yellow breaks at the next bend.

DaveAK
01 December 2010, 1444
Well, I wasn't going to mention the double yellow, but .....

Richard230
01 December 2010, 1637
Thanks for the link. That street ride looked like fun, although the sound track didn't seem quite right. :D

The track ride was very impressive. I saw 100 mph more than once.

What am I going to do with my GPR-S when I get an Empulse? Grocery shopping? :rolleyes:

chef
01 December 2010, 2108
send it the junkyard to be crushed? :O

BrammoBrian
01 December 2010, 2202
http://vimeo.com/17252395

There are 2 videos. One in the canyons, and one at a track day.

I don't know about you guys, but I want Brian's job!

Brian, any chance you'd give a bit of a write up about what's going on in the videos? I am curious as to what the dash was telling you on the track day video. I saw 2 lights and an LCD screen with writing on it, but my computer is old so I couldn't make out what any of it said.

Thanks,
Rich

Rich,

On the track day video, the dash was reporting in real time the standard system parameters that we like to keep track of and record with our VCU (same as we run on the Enertia): Battery voltage, battery current, low cell in the stack voltage, motor controller output voltage, motor controller output current, motor controller temperature, battery temperature, and motor temperature. On this particular test, we also had a full data acquistion system (visible in some photos on the tail of the bike) which logged many more parameters at a higher frequency (mostly temperature). I was attempting to keep track of temperatures while not riding like an idiot and not wrecking the one bike that we've built. So far so good, although I have managed to drop it on its side at one point when I put my foot down in some gravel... Good thing the bike's got frame sliders!

I want my job too! I wouldn't give it up easily... ;)

BrammoBrian
01 December 2010, 2207
On the ever popular issue of sound, listen to the noise the motor/gearbox combo make in the track video from 00:25 - 00:33 before the wind noise becomes the dominant sound. Turn your speakers up and that's really what it sounds like on the bike. Pretty wild, huh? Some of the folks at the office thought that was the sound of a gas bike accelerating beside me. Wrong.

Brammofan
02 December 2010, 0409
On the ever popular issue of sound, listen to the noise the motor/gearbox combo make in the track video from 00:25 - 00:33
"motor/gearbox combo" - whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Gearbox as in transmission or . . .?

teddillard
02 December 2010, 0410
uhmmmm, did you say GEARBOX?

Richard230
02 December 2010, 0852
Hey, I thought "gearbox" was a dirty word around here......

jpanichella
02 December 2010, 0907
Must tell us mooooorreeee

Warren
02 December 2010, 1454
I suspect he means the step-down gearbox. The Empulse, Lightning, and MotoCzysz all run high efficiency, high power motors. This means small, liquid cooled, and turning HUGH rpms. You are not going to get that to the rear wheel in one step.

Warren

teddillard
02 December 2010, 1458
I suspect he means the step-down gearbox. The Empulse, Lightning, and MotoCzysz all run high efficiency, high power motors. This means small, liquid cooled, and turning HUGH rpms. You are not going to get that to the rear wheel in one step.

Warren

ummm... are you speaking from experience/firsthand knowledge, or conjecture? I know a little about the motors they're running, but wasn't aware of any "step-down" gearbox or what I'd call huge RPMs. Hell, last I knew they weren't even dishing what motor the Empulse was using, specifically, since they hadn't really decided yet. Did I miss the memo?

BrammoBrian
02 December 2010, 1633
Sorry... it's a geared reduction in a housing - hence "gearbox". The Empulse RR race bike is still direct drive.

Skeezmour
02 December 2010, 1638
Yep I want Brians job.....although I'm working hard to get to do as much of it as possible here at Manzanita Micro :)

BTW thanks for the sweet video posts.......

Remotecontact
02 December 2010, 1702
The motor on the empulse looks like a PMS 156. http://www.perm-motor.de/index.php?id=synchron-motoren&L=1

This would make sense as the enertia uses a PMS 120. Hopefully watercooled :)

Controller wise my money is on the new-ish Sevcons.

Brammo may make the "battery" but I seriously doubt they're manufacturing cells.

Cell wise, not valence. I would guess something like kokam or A123 pouches but anything in that ballpark would make a 10kwh 420lb bike cost over 14K to keep a good margin. Unless of course brammo's buying in huge bulk or losing money on every bike sold.

The Empulse is a cornerstone for Elmoto.net folk because for the first time, it will be cheaper for us to buy an awesome electric motorcycle than it would be to build one. No other bike on the market can do that for us, which is part of the reason we exist. I suspect over time ELmoto will be less about hardcore converters and more about softcore modders to their already electric Elmotos.

frodus
02 December 2010, 1736
ummm... are you speaking from experience/firsthand knowledge, or conjecture? I know a little about the motors they're running, but wasn't aware of any "step-down" gearbox or what I'd call huge RPMs. Hell, last I knew they weren't even dishing what motor the Empulse was using, specifically, since they hadn't really decided yet. Did I miss the memo?

Lightning and Motoczysz run with gear reduction.

teddillard
02 December 2010, 1938
Lightning and Motoczysz run with gear reduction.

Really. I had no idea...

chdfarl
02 December 2010, 2142
http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/motoczysz-e1pc-electric-motorcycle-wins-iom-tt-zero-16.jpg
On the othe side of the bike there is a chain motor to jack shaft then the sprocket shown on that picture is one of the final drive sprockets

Those videos are great and frustrating to watch after the end of the race season ;D

BrammoBrian
02 December 2010, 2315
The motor on the empulse looks like a PMS 156. http://www.perm-motor.de/index.php?id=synchron-motoren&L=1

This would make sense as the enertia uses a PMS 120. Hopefully watercooled :)

Controller wise my money is on the new-ish Sevcons.

Brammo may make the "battery" but I seriously doubt they're manufacturing cells.

Cell wise, not valence. I would guess something like kokam or A123 pouches but anything in that ballpark would make a 10kwh 420lb bike cost over 14K to keep a good margin. Unless of course brammo's buying in huge bulk or losing money on every bike sold.

The Empulse is a cornerstone for Elmoto.net folk because for the first time, it will be cheaper for us to buy an awesome electric motorcycle than it would be to build one. No other bike on the market can do that for us, which is part of the reason we exist. I suspect over time ELmoto will be less about hardcore converters and more about softcore modders to their already electric Elmotos.

Shouldn't need conjecture on the motor and motor controller supplier... they're on the side of the bike...

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/wisdesign/IMG_3360-1.jpg

teddillard
03 December 2010, 0500
Shouldn't need conjecture on the motor and motor controller supplier... they're on the side of the bike...

Has the motor decision been finalized then? The last information I got from (those who shall remain unnamed) was that there were several final motors under consideration.

Remotecontact
03 December 2010, 0923
Ah, thanks Brian.

markcycle
03 December 2010, 1300
The motor on the empulse looks like a PMS 156. http://www.perm-motor.de/index.php?id=synchron-motoren&L=1

This would make sense as the enertia uses a PMS 120. Hopefully watercooled :)

Controller wise my money is on the new-ish Sevcons.

Brammo may make the "battery" but I seriously doubt they're manufacturing cells.

Cell wise, not valence. I would guess something like kokam or A123 pouches but anything in that ballpark would make a 10kwh 420lb bike cost over 14K to keep a good margin. Unless of course brammo's buying in huge bulk or losing money on every bike sold.

The Empulse is a cornerstone for Elmoto.net folk because for the first time, it will be cheaper for us to buy an awesome electric motorcycle than it would be to build one. No other bike on the market can do that for us, which is part of the reason we exist. I suspect over time ELmoto will be less about hardcore converters and more about softcore modders to their already electric Elmotos.

I don't think the custom motorcycle industry is going away because of the Empulse. There has always been a custom motorcycle industry, mostly choppers but also there's plenty of custom sports bikes on the roads. Now is the time to get those custom chopper shops to consider building electric bikes, at least that's my goal. To that end I'm building product I think they will find interesting. Not to hijack this thread or anything just had to voice a different opinion. A sneak preview of a chopper product EnerTrac will be offering next year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEpTwOHKjjw

Creativity is alive and well.

jazclrint
03 December 2010, 2211
Thank you Brian! Your job is safe. The Navy trained me well, but not that well. :D If Brammo needs an AE2 don't hesitate to drop me a line. :D

jazclrint
03 December 2010, 2216
Really. I had no idea...

You heard it here folks! :D

jazclrint
03 December 2010, 2221
The motor on the empulse looks like a PMS 156. http://www.perm-motor.de/index.php?id=synchron-motoren&L=1

This would make sense as the enertia uses a PMS 120. Hopefully watercooled :)

Controller wise my money is on the new-ish Sevcons.

Brammo may make the "battery" but I seriously doubt they're manufacturing cells.

Cell wise, not valence. I would guess something like kokam or A123 pouches but anything in that ballpark would make a 10kwh 420lb bike cost over 14K to keep a good margin. Unless of course brammo's buying in huge bulk or losing money on every bike sold.

The Empulse is a cornerstone for Elmoto.net folk because for the first time, it will be cheaper for us to buy an awesome electric motorcycle than it would be to build one. No other bike on the market can do that for us, which is part of the reason we exist. I suspect over time ELmoto will be less about hardcore converters and more about softcore modders to their already electric Elmotos.

Just conjecture here, but might they use LiFePo4 (ie A123) in the Empulse street model, but light, compact, powerful (and hazardous) LiPo batteries in the race bike (12RR)? That's how I'd do it.

jazclrint
03 December 2010, 2228
Since I was thanked at least 3 times for the post . . . you're welcome, and my pleasure. Brammo posted the vids up on their facebook page, so I kind of feel like the Mom that made rice crispy treats, "It's no bother." :D

jazclrint
03 December 2010, 2231
Shouldn't need conjecture on the motor and motor controller supplier... they're on the side of the bike...

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/wisdesign/IMG_3360-1.jpg

Oh SNAP!! hehehe

Warren
04 December 2010, 1733
"Just conjecture here, but might they use LiFePo4 (ie A123) in the Empulse street model, but light, compact, powerful (and hazardous) LiPo batteries in the race bike (12RR)? That's how I'd do it."

Given the weight of the three packs, and the 500 cycle life, I'd say the Enertia Plus, and the Empulse street bike's Brammo Power™ batteries are LiPo.

Perhaps Brian will clarify for us? Warren

Warren
16 December 2010, 1648
Folks,

Brian never offered to tell us about the Brammo's new batteries. It would appear these are they.

http://www.leydenenergy.com/index.php?page=pouch

http://www.leydenenergy.com/index.php?page=vehicles

Warren

silex
28 December 2010, 0326
^ Oh, snap!

BrammoBrian
29 January 2011, 1427
Here's the latest...

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/spy-shots-brammo-empulse-rr-testing-thunderhill/

http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/Electric-Motorcycles/Brammo-Empulse-RR-2011/20110127-IMG7155/1170612117_thxrC-M.jpg (http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/Electric-Motorcycles/Brammo-Empulse-RR-2011/13110904_CHpvh#1170612117_thxrC-A-LB)

jazclrint
29 January 2011, 1655
Thanks Brian!

Poor guy isn't on the Christmas list any more. :( At least you know you've got something exciting when people come to crash the party.

edit:

Here are all 5 videos: http://brammofan.wordpress.com/

jazclrint
30 January 2011, 1610
I was rereading the thread and got curious. here's a link I found to the motor company:
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.14ecfc66e7a40c1af8500f199420d1ca/?vgnextoid=43cb5242ade5c110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCR D&vgnextfmt=default&Keyword=MOTORS&Wtky=MOTORS#

I also noticed the Traxxion dynamics sticker on a nice high res photo I found. Personally, they're my favorite suspension tuning company, here in the US.

So Parker motor, Sevcon controller, and cells supplied by Leydenenergy. All designed with 3D's software?

teddillard
30 January 2011, 1641
Here is the theory I had about the motor: http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/motor-cooling-questions-answered/
...along with some more info on cooling. I figure it was a custom design based on a liquid-cooled stepper motor they have.

BrammoBrian
30 January 2011, 1942
I was rereading the thread and got curious. here's a link I found to the motor company:
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.14ecfc66e7a40c1af8500f199420d1ca/?vgnextoid=43cb5242ade5c110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCR D&vgnextfmt=default&Keyword=MOTORS&Wtky=MOTORS#

I also noticed the Traxxion dynamics sticker on a nice high res photo I found. Personally, they're my favorite suspension tuning company, here in the US.

So Parker motor, Sevcon controller, and cells supplied by Leydenenergy. All designed with 3D's software?

3D Systems builds very accurate rapid prototyping machines and provides many different materials with which to make these SLA and SLS parts. They've helped us to take designs for the bodywork and some motor cooling ducts from CAD designs to working parts in an amazingly short period of time. You also forgot custom fabricated SAPA aluminum chassis and swingarm, Brembo HP brake system (calipers, rotors, and master cylinders), Marchesini forged magnesium wheels, and Dunlop racing slicks. ;)

jazclrint
31 January 2011, 1915
3D Systems builds very accurate rapid prototyping machines and provides many different materials with which to make these SLA and SLS parts. They've helped us to take designs for the bodywork and some motor cooling ducts from CAD designs to working parts in an amazingly short period of time. You also forgot custom fabricated SAPA aluminum chassis and swingarm, Brembo HP brake system (calipers, rotors, and master cylinders), Marchesini forged magnesium wheels, and Dunlop racing slicks. ;)

Yeah, I'm a slacker. I found sapa: later, and wasn't sure what they did, as it seemed they do heatsinks too. Busted.