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Thread: The ElMoto Dream Bike

              
   
   
  1. #31
    Moderator Nuts & Volts's Avatar
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    I do not think a transmission is needed either.

    I want to propose that the controller is the first component to select. The controller will define your battery voltage, motor power, motor wind, and a tricky packaging dilemma in some cases
    I would choose from these below if money was not an issue.

    Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
    Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
    Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
    TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3

    Not sure 800V is a great level for a commuter. So on a street bike I would use a MC600. If I was making a dedicated race machine or had experience with a 800V system I would choose the Sevcon Size 10. Actually the Mission Motors might be better for the race bike as well cuz 300kW might not be useful unless you have a 30kWh battery pack.

    I would choose the Mission Motors MC600 for my dream bike.
    Whats under my tank may shock you!!! R6 Build, Blog/, [/URL] OSU Current webpage

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts & Volts View Post
    I do not think a transmission is needed either.

    I want to propose that the controller is the first component to select. The controller will define your battery voltage, motor power, motor wind, and a tricky packaging dilemma in some cases
    I would choose from these below if money was not an issue.

    Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
    Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
    Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
    TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3

    Not sure 800V is a great level for a commuter. So on a street bike I would use a MC600. If I was making a dedicated race machine or had experience with a 800V system I would choose the Sevcon Size 10. Actually the Mission Motors might be better for the race bike as well cuz 300kW might not be useful unless you have a 30kWh battery pack.

    I would choose the Mission Motors MC600 for my dream bike.

    I wouldn't even ride a home-brew bike at >350vdc. To do very high voltage systems correctly it takes insane attention to detail in every connection point and weather-proofing and creep distances, and then you can still die a lame death just with a single mistake working on it, or even no mistake but a contactor you counted on disconnecting for service welds closed inside or something.

    For the ~100hp range, I would go with a pair of Sevcon size6's in master/slave configuration (which they are able to do). Then you can stick with a ~100v-ish system, and when you touch things by mistake, you get tickled and laugh about it rather than spontaneous death.

  4. #33
    Moderator Nuts & Volts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveforphysics View Post
    I wouldn't even ride a home-brew bike at >350vdc. To do very high voltage systems correctly it takes insane attention to detail in every connection point and weather-proofing and creep distances, and then you can still die a lame death just with a single mistake working on it, or even no mistake but a contactor you counted on disconnecting for service welds closed inside or something.

    For the ~100hp range, I would go with a pair of Sevcon size6's in master/slave configuration (which they are able to do). Then you can stick with a ~100v-ish system, and when you touch things by mistake, you get tickled and laugh about it rather than spontaneous death.
    Point taken...to each his own in a way thou. I had access to a 300V 100kW controller so I took the opportunity. And believe me I have worked on one of the most sketchy 400V packs that ever was, so I don't take your concerns lightly.

    Two Sevcon Size 6 mated to a LV EMRAX motor would be a pretty sweet setup for about $7000 in parts and under 50lbs...
    Last edited by Nuts & Volts; 28 January 2013 at 1950.
    Whats under my tank may shock you!!! R6 Build, Blog/, [/URL] OSU Current webpage

  5. #34
    Senior Member jonescg's Avatar
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    Proper planning resolves most high voltage safety concerns. Elegant design, modular assembly, multiple points of isolation and lots of physical separation of live wires; all constitutes a safe high voltage pack.

    Unfortunately the best power comes from higher voltages. Granted, 700 V is a lot, and I would much prefer to work on 350 V but some motors don't come in that configuration.

    So in deciding which controller to go for with the dream bike, we need to consider the practicalities of a battery to suit. We're aiming for close to 14 kWh on board? Assuming the best NMC cells, you are going to hit a physical limit based on their capacity. At 40 Ah, you would be looking at 350 V (96s). Getting it to fit in the most volumetricly efficient shape while satisfying all isolation requirements won't be easy.

  6. #35
    Senior Member __Tango's Avatar
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    The ElMoto Dream Bike

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts & Volts View Post
    Sevcon Size 10 - 800Vdc, 300kW, 28.7lbs, 635in^3
    Rinehart PM150 - 400Vdc, 150kW, 30.9lbs, 463in^3
    Mission Motors MC600 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 14.6lbs, 454in^3
    TM4 CO150 - 450Vdc, 150kW, 24.3lbs, 615in^3
    Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?

    Also, wouldn't it be better to pick a motor/ controller package instead of just a controller?
    EVs: 2007 Zapino Scooter, Honda VF500 Conversion (electriceptor.wordpress.com), Red Nissan LEAF SL (Arrived!)

  7. #36
    teddillard
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    Quote Originally Posted by __Tango View Post
    Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?
    Ditto on that for the transmission conversation. Besides idealogical issues, you just can't get a sensible transmission, which would be in the 2-3speed range.

    I agree, let's settle on the controller, then motor combo first.

  8. #37
    Moderator Nuts & Volts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by __Tango View Post
    Wasn't one of the criteria available to mere mortals? Which of these is available to home brew guys/gals like us?

    Also, wouldn't it be better to pick a motor/ controller package instead of just a controller?
    They can all be purchased direct through the manufacturers. You just have to have enough money. The Rinehart can also be purchased through New Eagle. The Mission Motors controller is probably a little bit harder to come by. It's a matter of can you get in contact with the right people and can you show them that you really want it. Price range is from $6k to close to $12k for the controllers I listed.

    It does make sense to pick a controller and motor package, but these controllers can all be tuned to a specific motor. That's may not be cheap or easy in all cases. The Rinehart already works with about 20 different AC motors. The Sevcon has been tuned to the YASA motors. I don't know much about the other two thou. Basically it's doable.

    Anyone have any other thoughts on possible controllers? I think we want a 150kW controller even if we have a 100kW motor. This will allow you to widen the power/torque curves. This in a way can eliminate the need for a transmission (or accel/top speed compromises). I can explain this more if people are interested.
    Whats under my tank may shock you!!! R6 Build, Blog/, [/URL] OSU Current webpage

  9. #38
    Senior Member Spaceweasel's Avatar
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    I think some interesting questions are raised here. Rather than starting with any one component, I'd like to hear some thoughts as to the best (available to mortals) components in each category, and why.
    Best frame for an elmoto conversion?
    Best motor?
    Best controller?
    Best battery?
    Best display?

  10. #39
    Seņor Member podolefsky's Avatar
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    Best color?
    - Noah Podolefsky -
    The GSX-E

  11. #40
    Moderator Nuts & Volts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceweasel View Post
    I think some interesting questions are raised here. Rather than starting with any one component, I'd like to hear some thoughts as to the best (available to mortals) components in each category, and why.
    Best frame for an elmoto conversion?
    Best motor? -
    Best controller?
    Best battery?
    Best display?
    Best frame for an elmoto conversion? - CBR1000rr, wide open frame, slightly less curvy than other frames. Room to modify swingarm, prior experience
    I think this is hard to determine. Or a Ducati 900
    Best motor? - EMRAX UHP - http://www.enstroj.si/News/emraxuhp.html highest power to weight, highest power to volume
    Best controller? - Mission Motors MC600, highest power to weight, highest power to volume, moderate voltage level
    Best battery? - EIG 40AH cells or GEB 11Ah racing car battery
    Best display? - Write an Android app and send bluetooth data to it

    These are the top choices IMHO
    Motors - EVO, YASA, EMRAX
    Controllers - Mission, TM4, Rinehart, Sevcon
    Batteries - EIG, Kokam, or high quality direct from China
    Whats under my tank may shock you!!! R6 Build, Blog/, [/URL] OSU Current webpage

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